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Never been an issue in our games. Martial And casters can generally keep up with each other, enc situation and design is key . If your martial fall behind give them an opportunity to redesign characters using the retraining rules from ult campaign. I've never bought into the magic classes rule arguments - they typically do that by poor enc design, meta gaming, poor DMing, other pc's poor martial designs or most commonly unlucky save syndrome. In 28 years playing dnd I can count the times magic reigned supreme in a party, and martials felt left out, on my fingers. In every case it was a clear cut case of min/maxing and/or meta gaming and usually to the detriment of the games fun - the actual reason we play!
In your case I think you misplayed a few things. Targeting in a dark, dense forest should be very hard even for a magic user. Getting more than 1 creature with a lightning bolt is unlikely. Even simply seeing them could be a challenge - that's what perception is for.
If I was one of the martials I'd be right royally jacked off as well. 2 of my own party left me to die in a forest fire. At the least a chaotic act, more likely an evil act. How such a party gets back together is beyond me. It would almost warrant the two casters making up new characters to join the martials, both of whom would quite rightly not want those two near them again.
you can't really eliminate the gulf in any D20 derived system. you can reduce the gulf by giving martials access to superhuman options, but then it becomes the same as warlock versus wizard.By 12th level we've already hit superhuman capacities. A 20th Level Fighter goes even beyond that.
By my comment guys, I meant that stage of the game we should really throw mundanity to the wind and bring on the super human acts of hard core heroes for martials. I am of complete agreement with yall.
Umbriere I totally get what you mean there, thats why I play Kirthfinder. Martials feel like paragons of mortal might at high levels.
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Actually asking the spellcasters to play by the rules, using components, buying spells etc goes a long way, and then Monsters and NPC's actually playing sensibly helps too.
Some great suggestions in this thread.
Never been an issue in our games. Martial And casters can generally keep up with each other, enc situation and design is key . If your martial fall behind give them an opportunity to redesign characters using the retraining rules from ult campaign. I've never bought into the magic classes rule arguments - they typically do that by poor enc design, meta gaming, poor DMing, other pc's poor martial designs or most commonly unlucky save syndrome. In 28 years playing dnd I can count the times magic reigned supreme in a party, and martials felt left out, on my fingers. In every case it was a clear cut case of min/maxing and/or meta gaming and usually to the detriment of the games fun - the actual reason we play!
In your case I think you misplayed a few things. Targeting in a dark, dense forest should be very hard even for a magic user. Getting more than 1 creature with a lightning bolt is unlikely. Even simply seeing them could be a challenge - that's what perception is for.
If I was one of the martials I'd be right royally jacked off as well. 2 of my own party left me to die in a forest fire. At the least a chaotic act, more likely an evil act. How such a party gets back together is beyond me. It would almost warrant the two casters making up new characters to join the martials, both of whom would quite rightly not want those two near them again.
casters can also max perception, and by the way, perception checks can be made reactively every round as a free action once per round and retried as a move action. most casters don't need their move action
most spells are either standard actions or swift actions
most casters have more skill points free to max perception due to an easier time affording intellect, mostly because they don't require strength, and a lot of them only need one mental stat, meaning they can dump either wis or cha to boost int. the only full caster that needs both Wis and Cha, is the cleric. most of them can do fine with Int and Cha, or Int and Wis, and 3 only need Int if you include archetypes, one of which, can take an archetype to only need Con, and still afford a high int.
Actually asking the spellcasters to play by the rules, using components, buying spells etc goes a long way, and then Monsters and NPC's actually playing sensibly helps too.
Some great suggestions in this thread.
it would seem to do so
but most DMs in my Area are like, "Scratch off 5 gold for a component pouch" or "you want to animated a 12 HD zombie, Scratch off 300 gold from your inventory."
essentially, by turning all the components to coins, you are still tracking costs. it just requires less DM bookkeeping than tracking the values of half a dozen types of gems
most players and DMs, can't comprehend that many currencies at once
and many powerful schrodinger's wizards, are often abusing spontaneous casting related variants, or a DM's lack of awareness
Well if they are doing that it is certainly a great step forward, but it still allows the player a massive degree of flexibility.
Would you allow a player to have a generic free 'bottle of any-potion' that allows them to simply use the bottle and just pay the cost of the potion as they go?
Martials would have had to invest their limited resources into buying several potions as a contingency, potions that may or may not get used, hence their resources are tied up in what might be dead items. casters are supposed to be doing the same with mutliple types of gems and reagents in various costing lots.
Except one doesn't have to now pre-allocate the resource, greatly favouring that player.
Well if they are doing that it is certainly a great step forward, but it still allows the player a massive degree of flexibility.
Would you allow a player to have a generic free 'bottle of any-potion' that allows them to simply use the bottle and just pay the cost of the potion as they go?
Martials would have had to invest their limited resources into buying several potions as a contingency, potions that may or may not get used, hence their resources are tied up in what might be dead items. casters are supposed to be doing the same with mutliple types of gems and reagents in various costing lots.
Except one doesn't have to now pre-allocate the resource, greatly favouring that player.
i'd allow players a Miscellaneous budgets
the Misc budget is a specially distributed amount of gold set up for spending on such purchases as spell components, potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables such as as alchemical items, rope, tools and arrows
you deduct the price from the misc budget when you use the item
it doesn't work for looted items or looted components, only the purchased kind
crafting feats, don't affect the Misc budget
it allows martials the same benefit
So as long as I have money in the pool, I can simply state I have any given item in it - Ghost turns up, then i can just say I have Ghost Salts and deduct from the pool?
Can I swap my weapon too as necessity dictates? :p
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casters can also max perception, and by the way, perception checks can be made reactively every round as a free action once per round and retried as a move action. most casters don't need their move action
most spells are either standard actions or swift actions
most casters have more skill points free to max perception due to an easier time affording intellect, mostly because they don't require strength, and a lot of them only need one mental stat, meaning they can dump either wis or cha to boost int. the only full caster that needs both Wis and Cha, is the cleric. most of them can do fine with Int and Cha, or Int...
I know how perception works but think in this situation the Move actions are very important in a chase or dense forest. If you don't move you won't keep up and loose any line of sight. Not al casters max out perception -sure it easy for a wizard or witch since int is there prime stat.
If you generalise components you make things far easier for casters. Some components are hard to get, I tend to make casters use diplomacy , knowledge, craft and profession skills in acquiring components. This ensures odd components are accounted for and also makes spell castes invest in appropriate skills.
Converting components to coins is a dodgy idea. Do the same dm's allow archers and gunslingers to carry infinite ammo as long as they have the coin on them? Can they carry "weapons" for all occasions? Sure I allow common components to convert but odder ones I ask for skill checks in town and allocate components - adds no more complications than the normal book work for tracking spells. A good check may allow a PC to find and trade for diamond dust or something similar on a 1: 1 basis.
So as long as I have money in the pool, I can simply state I have any given item in it - Ghost turns up, then i can just say I have Ghost Salts and deduct from the pool?
Can I swap my weapon too as necessity dictates? :p
yes to the first, you can deduct money to pull ghost salts from the pool
swapping the weapon requires you to deduct money from the pool appropriate to the cost of the weapon to aqcuire the new weapon, effectively giving both
refilling the pool requires you to spend money at a town or other settlement you can trade with
it's mostly intended for martial potions
looted items can be traded for the funds to fill the pool at full market price, crafted items, at their crafting price
If the martials can't keep up with Lightning Bolt, it either means they're really poorly optimized, or the bad guys are all standing in a line.
For a level 8 party of four PCs (five will have an easier time), CR 8 = routine encounter, roughly equivalent of fighting a single (fully equipped and reasonably tough) level 8 PC. The claim that one of these should use up 25% of party resources has never worked out in my own games.
CR 9 = slightly more serious encounter.
CR 10 = tough encounter, like fighting two level 8 PCs.
CR 11 = boss encounter.
CR 12 = deadly encounter. Like fighting four level 8 PCs. Around a 50% chance of TPK.
Encounters vary a lot according to the quantity of enemies.
Lots of weak enemies: vulnerable to area spells. Take a long time for martial PCs to get through. Good chance they will be completely powerless due to inability to get through PC armor class. Alternatively, if they are able to hurt the PCs, they may be incredibly dangerous en masse.
Single powerful enemy: might be able to kill a PC in a single attack. Resistant to area effect spells. Because a single enemy is unlikely to have lots and lots of hit points, martial PCs can bring them down pretty quickly. If a caster can target a weak saving throw, the battle can end very abruptly.
The best encounters are usually somewhere between these extremes, and should involve some interesting terrain as well.
casters can also max perception, and by the way, perception checks can be made reactively every round as a free action once per round and retried as a move action. most casters don't need their move action
most spells are either standard actions or swift actions
most casters have more skill points free to max perception due to an easier time affording intellect, mostly because they don't require strength, and a lot of them only need one mental stat, meaning they can dump either wis or cha to boost int. the only full caster that needs both Wis and Cha, is the cleric. most of them can do fine with Int and Cha, or Int...
I know how perception works but think in this situation the Move actions are very important in a chase or dense forest. If you don't move you won't keep up and loose any line of sight. Not al casters max out perception -sure it easy for a wizard or witch since int is there prime stat.
everybody maxes out perception, even the casters and fighters who dump int, perception is the first skill you max out before any others. it is the power gamer minmax skill
If you generalise components you make things far easier for casters. Some components are hard to get, I tend to make casters use diplomacy , knowledge, craft and profession skills in acquiring components. This ensures odd components are accounted for and also makes spell castes invest in appropriate skills.
Converting components to coins is a dodgy idea. Do the same dm's allow archers and gunslingers to carry infinite ammo as long as they have the coin on them? Can they carry "weapons" for all occasions? Sure I allow common components to convert but odder ones I ask for skill checks in town and allocate components - adds no more complications than the normal book work for tracking spells. A good check may allow a PC to find and trade for diamond dust or something similar on a 1: 1 basis.
yes, the same DMs, would logically allow gunslingers and archers to convert cash to ammunition, or fighters to convert cash to potions on the fly from the pool mentioned above
i also allow the trading of weapons at their full value for a different weapon, or the resizing of innapropriately sized weapons
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Realistically as long as everyone is enjoying the game why worry. So there may be a difference but it shouldn't affect the enjoyment of the game.. Play a caster if you think they are better, play a martial if you want. I'd talk over the forest situation though, that sort of disregard for other pc's can be the sour a game - not the end of the world if your all good friends.
Ban the 5-ft step? Hmm... still wouldn't quite do it.
Yeah, like alignments. And there's no way to change how they work, either.To answer the thread title directly: You can't.
The game is designed for 'wizards rule, fighters drool'. It's ingrained into the system. It's how it's supposed to work.
Way easier to remove alignment than it is to fix martial-caster disparity imo. Alignment is a few house rules. Martial-caster disparity is rewriting the classes themselves and possibly even the system. Plenty of easy house rules for alignments. Personally, I like 3rd party classes for my casters rather than vancian. Different mileage out of them.
The best weapon a caster can have is an appropriately deployed martial.
If a single spell caster can trivialize all of your encounters, you're doing something wrong. Or maybe just running an encounter that was too easy.
One thing that will help a lot is making sure the party faces multiple encounters in one run. And be sure to include at least a few critters with SR, good saves, etc. Things that don't crumple just because a spell caster looked at them funny.
Your group doesn't sound very coordinated, so this might kill them, but I'd suggest running a fight with a few ECL+2 or +3 creatures, after they'd already fought some battles. Having such an encounter may drive home to them that they need each other.
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And be sure to include at least a few critters with SR, good saves, etc. Things that don't crumple just because a spell caster looked at them funny.
The problem with this is that the conjuration school is a thing.
And be sure to include at least a few critters with SR, good saves, etc. Things that don't crumple just because a spell caster looked at them funny.The problem with this is that the conjuration school is a thing.
Yup. The spells that make a caster truly scary don't give a rat's tail about SR, and a good portion of them don't allow saves either.
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I think the short answer is, if your party is newer to the game, it's tough. Martials CAN keep up with the casters (even at the highest level), but it takes a good bit of system mastery; relative to the "easily defined" caster. This is doubly-true if your caster has read the comprehensive "Treatmonk Guide to God-Wizards" (as he seems to have).
The issue with Martials is there simply aren't as many good guides; too many options, especially with all of the new splat books, that need to all be incorporated to keep up. Martials also suffer from those who whine about dump-stats, since they are ultimately more "Multi-Stat Dependent" (MAD) than casters, and benefit more from stat-dumping. Meanwhile, not much has changed since the core book for casters; and the Treatmonk guide does a really good job of defining everything that will hamstring opponents well.
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There are a few strategies I use to de-power casters compared to martial characters:
I borrowed the "short rest" rules from the 5th edition playtest. Basically this lets the players spend 10 minutes after a fight resting and recouping to get a significant portion of hit points back. This takes a bit of strain off of clerics, but primarily it means that the martial characters are able to tackle multiple encounters per day and therefore discourages the wizard from dumping his full load of spells on every encounter.
Another strategy along the same lines is "timed" adventures. If the players know that the bad guy is going to sacrifice the princess on the full moon, two nights from now, they know they can't stop and sleep 8 times between now and then, again forcing the casters to conserve resources.
The "Nightmare" spell, used occasionally, is pretty significant for casters, and a minor inconvenience for martial characters. A lesser restoration potion gets the fighter in tip top shape after a bad night, the wizard might be screwed. You can't overuse this one without a player revolt, but it does serve to knock the wizard down a peg or two now and then.
The classic "archers with a readied action" (the poor man's counterspell) also can be used to great effect.
Overall it's a cultural thing. My caster players embrace their martial comrades, and know that the goal of every major encounter is for them to play chess with the opposing forces so the fighter can play checkers. They battle the opposing caster, acting and reacting to their spells with the goal of getting their meat shields to connect while keeping the opposing mooks from chewing them up while the meat shields focus on mulching targets the casters present to them.
The enemy isn't game design, it's the Damage meter mentality that comes from MMOs. This is a game of cooperative storytelling and both roles are important. A god wizard needs his cleanup crew, just like they need him. You might benefit by just taking the caster player aside and reminding them to be a team player.
At high levels of play, blasters are not terribly viable. A tweaked blaster may be able to mulch an encounter, but a tricked out archer can do it every encounter, all day. The god wizard becomes the "correct" sort of wizard for a balanced party, and they should act out the role of adviser and facilitator. Rather than taking the shine away from the martial character, his focus should be making sure the martial character is operating at his peak efficiency and clearing the roadblocks from his path.
So, Thalin, how does a martial keep up with casters?
To the OP:
Peter Stewart offered some great advice.
Generally, though, you've steered right into a popcorn topic. It doesn't make the questions any less valid, just...
...I'd read Peter's post a few more times.
Then get out the popcorn. MrSin's post is veering that way. If Thalin takes him up on it, we'll have more chimers-in and likely about 10+ pages of caster v. martial debate before we can so much as blink.
This isn't saying either of them aren't great people. This is more saying, this is one of those topics.
Do you prefer buttered, or caramel?
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The short answer is to use what splat-books have given us to keep up.
With proper feat setup, a Barbarian can pounce, or any maratial charge using Dragon Style - Vital Strike (through ally squares and over difficult terrain, the deterrants for charge) and put out insane damage. A 1-level splash of unarmed fighter gets you the dragon style and all requirements easily.
A Manuever Master with two-weapon fighting style and some natural weapons can get about 8 manuevers off in a round if they so desire. This means that enemies end up tripped, blind, grappled, etc. with far more efficiency than most spells do. Even if they have to move and attack, they can move up to someone, trip them, use swift dirty trick to blind them with the AOO from greater trip, then do an unarmed strike with Vicious Stomp.
A Paladin of Vengence can put out massive levels @ that level, especially if they are charging on their horse (who randomly also has Dragon Style) with Spirited Charge / Ride-By attack. This damage can be in the 100+ range if they combine it with their smite.
A Shield-Ranger should have a massive AC and the ability to cheaply make their shields both good defensive AND offensive weapons. Also, they will often move up to an opponent and take their free Bull Rush to knock back (and possibly over) their opponents.
And, with proper magic items, these CMBs aren't going to suffer from high-level problems. At 8th level without trying to hard all of these guys should be in the low 20s, and the Manuever Master around / about 25. As to flight, magic carpets should be prioritized A LOT more than they are (20K is a lot, but it gives an attack bonus from higher ground and prevents a lot of issues of melees feeling helpless/needing to branch into archery).
So there it is :). Keep an eye on your saves, get into the face of opponents, deal your massive damage or do battlefield control that wizards can only dream of. That's how martials keep up with casters.
None of those actually keep up though... So okay.
It's not that hard to make a martial-focused character who deals enough damage to kill CR-appropriate enemies in a round or two, has enough AC to laugh off their attacks, and high enough saving throws to resist their spells. I'm not sure what else they need to 'keep up'?
My last two APs featured groups consisting of three martial-focused characters (inquisitor, paladin, alchemist, bard, ninja, etc) supported by a cleric or oracle (who kept them going but didn't usually defeat enemies) and no primary arcane caster (well, there was a sorcerer, but he died mid-way through due to repeatedly failing fortitude saves). Both campaigns suffered from the problem that, without special GM assistance, the enemies were nowhere near tough enough to provide a serious challenge.
I'm not sure what else they need to 'keep up'?
Problem solving mostly, unless your martials have ways around difficult terrain, fly, see invisibility, ways past DR, alternative methods of travel, charm other people, craft their own gear, etc... In combat blaster type casters at later levels have AoE save or suffers. Dazing metamagic on an evocation spell for instance. Doing damage against one target though is pretty easy, though reaching them is something else entirely.
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You can say what you will, but I do them, and around optimized casters. Casters, well, they are pretty squishy, and don't deal well with a lot of the damage around them as well as you'd like. They throw out save-or-dies and attach status problems; but monsters at high levels often come attached with things like wings and undeath and SR that prevent all but the best. They can throw down some tough-to-move terrain or cut off monsters or such, but the fighting types can "take a lickin' and keep on tickin'" while locking up the monsters well, and do damage that can drop even the biggest bosses to half or 1/3rd hp (or just lock them up, depending on whether you are fighting via manuever or damage).
The "casters are just better" rule never actually works in real games; and the casters I know optimize as much as the fighting types. But again, the fighting types need to know what their doing. An 8th level character that runs up for 2d6+20 damage and expects that to be enough is sadly mistaken.
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The "casters are just better" rule never actually works in real games;
Happens in mine. Are my games not real?
Problem solving mostly, unless your martials have ways around difficult terrain, fly, see invisibility, ways past DR, alternative methods of travel, charm other people, craft their own gear, etc... In combat blaster type casters at later levels have AoE save or suffers. Dazing metamagic on an evocation spell for instance. Doing damage against one target though is pretty easy, though reaching them is something else entirely.
You can have PCs from winged races or with magic items of flight, magic items against invisibility (potion? UMD wand of glitterdust?), get past DR with Smite Evil or Clustered Shots or doing 40 damage per attack or attacking with a +5 scythe... There are certainly difficulties to having no-one in the group who can, say, teleport (though UMDing a scroll is possible at high levels), but it's a poor GM who takes an all-mundane group and puts them in an adventure which can't be solved by mundane means. And if you have one caster who can do these things, that's enough to support the whole group.
Dazing metamagic is powerful (probably too powerful), but is usually followed by martial characters finishing off the enemy.I'm sure there are real campaigns where the casters make the martials look bad, but I bet they're making an effort to show off. In most battles, you can cast minimal spells (Haste, for example) and let the fighters win. Then you heal them up with wands. This is a much more efficient use of resources than casting Mass Instant Death every time.
Sounds to Me like you need to throw a few extra encounters in each day .
Casters are not much use when there out of spells a simple mass attack by low powered monsters at night is a good way for them to use up any spells they have left as well as interrupt there rest so they don't get there spells back .
That's when the other characters will prove there worth and the caters will be a little more humble
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The "casters are just better" rule never actually works in real games;Happens in mine. Are my games not real?
Doesn't happen in other. Are those games not "real".
If the Witch and Wizard wanted to fly in this encounter, great. They are flying targets who just used a 3rd level spell to fly to use another 3rd level spell to...not do much damage.
CR 2 Zombies and a BBEG without ranged attacks...why didn't the alchemist throw bombs at the casters?
What we have is a party that knew exactly what it would be up against (Alchemist that summons demons) tracking it into a trap.
If your Witch and Sorcerer cast fly on the first round, that is a standard action and a move action with one round gone and them in the air and easily targeted by anything with ranged attacks.
Assuming they got initiative and weren't swarmed, or made the checks if they were swarmed.
If you have an encounter against 8th level characters in an outdoor area that doesn't involve any ranged attacks...
Martial Characters need to get the basic magic items, same as everyone else. Not having certain potions (Fly, Invis, Feather fall, etc...) after 5th level or so puts you in a bad spot.
At the same time, the damage from a 8th level lightning bolt shouldn't break an encounter designed for 8th level characters. As I said, that 28 average damage is about the same as a single attack from 8th level NPC warrior with a greatsword and one feat.
The question I always ask if I'm running a smart NPC is "What would I do, knowing what I know?"
Why would the Alchemist do what he did? If he was setting a trap with Zombies, he totally succeeded as he nearly killed half the party because the witch and sorcerer were really, really, dumb.
If he knew he was being pursued and was part of the trap, why was he visible (2nd level alchemist spell) and why didn't he target the squishies with bombs? (5d6 splash damage each, with at least two bombs, meaning he could have dropped 10d6 on one of the casters...or about how many hit point they have, total)
Doesn't happen in other. Are those games not "real".The "casters are just better" rule never actually works in real games;Happens in mine. Are my games not real?
I didn't say those games weren't.
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Here is how I would have done the encounter, based on the description that I have a bunch of CR 2 zombies and I know I'm being pursued.
I have the BBEG set a trap where the party comes to a clearing and are swarmed by zombies. I cast invis as soon as I think the party is close (along with other buffs) and I prepare at least one extra invis to use after I attack.
Hell if I am 10th level, I probably do greater invis.
I know that the casters are going to stay back from melee, and I don't want to hurt my Zombies, so once the party is split, I carpet bomb the casters. I'm 10th level so I surely have fast bombs, so I'm doing at least 10d6 and probably more.
I've now dropped one caster. If I took greater invis I'm still invis, if not I can take the potion next round. The martials are tied up with Zombies and so I finish off the other caster next round the same way if I can. If they try and fly, that is a standard action and they are only 60 feet away, so I can probably still get them with a ranged touch bomb. Or the are trying to glitterdust me or some other way to get me not invis, meaning they are still target able next round.
They can't really kill me (lighting bolt is 28 damage and one is dead) so I'm not really scared of them.
Is this TPK territory? Maybe. But it is also a +3 to +4 CR encounter of choice (they are chasing me...)
Actually asking the spellcasters to play by the rules, using components, buying spells etc goes a long way, and then Monsters and NPC's actually playing sensibly helps too.
Some great suggestions in this thread.
Not really, most spellcasters take Eschew Materials, or even better, ask your goddess to help you cast most spells (False Focus feat, + 100gp value holy symbol) without material components.
Plus, remember casters aren't melee combatants. Unless they are fighting stupid monsters (like many PvP players in MMOs), they see the cleric healing the party they should attack the cleric. If the wizard is doing large AoE maximized fireballs, kill the wizard first.
Just don't attack the witch, you'll regret it.
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Plus, remember casters aren't melee combatants. Unless they are fighting stupid monsters (like many PvP players in MMOs), they see the cleric healing the party they should attack the cleric. If the wizard is doing large AoE maximized fireballs, kill the wizard first.
This is where I think a lot of issues occur.
Killing the caster makes sense for a number of reasons.
1. They are generally the easiest to kill quickly.
2. You want to kill them before they buff/escape/cast
People whine and complain that you are singling out casters...no, you are using common sense.
If I look at a battlefield and I see a heavily armored tank rolling toward me and a lightly armored heavy artillery on the hill, assuming I can hit both I try and take out the artillery, as that is both the most immediate threat and likely easier to take out with one shot.
Similarly if there is a fighter who can kill me with a full attack if he closes but that will likely survive whatever I do to them, and a wizard who I can possibly kill in one round who is arguably less dangerous when he close to me than he is far away from me, why would I close on the fighter and not the caster?
Which is the balancing factor of casters. They are squishy.
People whine and complain that you are singling out casters...no, you are using common sense.
Well they don't whine because your not using common sense, its usually because the game isn't as fun when you die all the time. I like when you use common sense, but a dead character is hard to play with. Usually, anyway.
Granted, it was Worlds largest Dungeon, but I burned through five rogues in the time it took the rest of the entire party to die twice collectively.
you can't really eliminate the gulf in any D20 derived system. you can reduce the gulf by giving martials access to superhuman options, but then it becomes the same as warlock versus wizard.By 12th level we've already hit superhuman capacities. A 20th Level Fighter goes even beyond that.By my comment guys, I meant that stage of the game we should really throw mundanity to the wind and bring on the super human acts of hard core heroes for martials. I am of complete agreement with yall.
Umbriere I totally get what you mean there, thats why I play Kirthfinder. Martials feel like paragons of mortal might at high levels.
I agree completely.
The other option, nerfing the spellcasters, is apparently such an anathema (despite the fact that that's exactly what needs to be done, in a big way) that I can't see that happening.
The other option, nerfing the spellcasters, is apparently such an anathema (despite the fact that that's exactly what needs to be done, in a big way) that I can't see that happening.
Take a third option; play with mostly tier 3/4. A group with a warblade, spelltheif, warlock, binder, and bard is much different than one with a Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Rogue, and Fighter. Goes a little extreme too though, imo.
The other option, nerfing the spellcasters, is apparently such an anathema (despite the fact that that's exactly what needs to be done, in a big way) that I can't see that happening.Take a third option; play with mostly tier 3/4. A group with a warblade, spelltheif, warlock, binder, and bard is much different than one with a Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Rogue, and Fighter. Goes a little extreme too though, imo.
I'm certainly willing to go that far. Throwing out all the preparation casters is something I'm inclined to do anyway. Throw in some 'healing is nice but not required' house rules on top of it, and I doubt anybody would miss the cleric or druid.
I tend to find fighters die the most. Casters have all these 'get out of jail free' cards like teleport. Makes the story-telling narrative aspects of a campaign harder.
Heh... This reminds me of a scene in a high-level campaign I'm playing. First encounter in the campaign, the GM puts us against a bunch of Daemons and a priest of a Daemon-lord. They hold the wife of a PC as a hostage.
We quickly teleport, knock out the priest and then teleport away with him and the girl. All of that in 2 rounds.
And the party only had 1 full-caster.
Nothing like completely bypassing an encounter to kick-start a campaign, huh?
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Nothing like completely ignoring an encounter to kick-start a campaign, huh?
This is why the spellcasters need to be reined in. There is no such thing as an obstacle to a spellcaster without applying incredibly ham-handed techniques. Any 'ignore the plot' spell needs to go.
This is why the spellcasters need to be reined in. There is no such thing as an obstacle to a spellcaster without applying incredibly ham-handed techniques. Any 'ignore the plot' spell needs to go.
Nothing like completely ignoring an encounter to kick-start a campaign, huh?
I think there should be a middle ground. Casters should be able to do all they can do in the current rules (or at least, not nearly as easily), but I don't want to see them nerfed into Fighter level of out-of-combat uselessness.
It's fun to have the freedom and power to do all sorts of crazy stuff at high levels, the problem is when only a few character can do that, while others are still dragged down by "realism".
This is why the spellcasters need to be reined in. There is no such thing as an obstacle to a spellcaster without applying incredibly ham-handed techniques. Any 'ignore the plot' spell needs to go.
Having narrative power and being able to dynamically impact the plot are good things. It's one of the main strengths of tabletop games. The problem is when only certain characters are allowed to do this.
This is why the spellcasters need to be reined in. There is no such thing as an obstacle to a spellcaster without applying incredibly ham-handed techniques. Any 'ignore the plot' spell needs to go.
Nothing like completely ignoring an encounter to kick-start a campaign, huh?I think there should be a middle ground. Casters should be able to do all they can do in the current rules (or at least, not nearly as easily), but I don't want to see them nerfed into Fighter level of out-of-combat uselessness.
It's fun to have the freedom and power to do all sorts of crazy stuff at high levels, the problem is when only a few character can do that, while others are still dragged down by "realism".
This is why I loved 4e's Ritual magic. Anybody can learn it with just a feat (I'd probably make it a trait for PF), and anybody can use it. So, you take the noncombat magic out and make it rituals. Anybody who wants to learn it, can. Just put the usual level limits on it, probably the highest (so, Teleport ritual is level 10). Make 'em take a decent chunk of time for no teleport nukes, and Bob's Your Uncle.
Black Tentacles is negated by monsters that can get past the grapple check. This should be a lot of them-- anything size large or huge is most likely not failing a lot of grapple checks to Wizard level+5.
Walls are negated by flying or burrowing or Dimension Door effects. There are plenty of monsters and classes out there capable of making the wall as much or more a hindrance to the Wizard who cast it as it is to who its trying to stop.
Glitterdust offers a Will save that repeats every round. If you are having trouble with this, use monsters or lasses with higher will saves. NPC Wizards should not end up blind often. Alternately there are plenty of monsters with Blindsense around who laugh at being blinded.
If all your Wizards are fighting are mindless beasts who walk straight forward at a wall and then stand their waiting to be attacked of course they will seem overpowered.
If all of your non-combat situations boil down to "find the right spell effect" then that's on you as well-- there are tons of social interaction goals which can be interesting plot and involve martial characters outside of combat as easily as they do spell casters.