I’ve been having some ‘issues’ with my fellow players. I’m not sure how to handle this as my initial attempts have not worked at all. (I’m pretty sure my desire to yell “Quit being such a dumb ash!” will not go over well. ) I know several players that are constantly making really poor decisions, then are upset about the results of those decision.
I will give some examples. I will change some of the details to avoid embarrassing people.
However, both players are bored when it isn’t combat and frequently complain that there is nothing they can do to contribute. So they just sit there getting even more bored. But if you suggest learning/preparing seek thoughts (to help learn things), taking ranks in sense motive ( to tell when someone is lying), buying the headband that gives you skill ranks, etc… it’s impossible because “I can’t fit it in my build plan.”
Don’t get me wrong. I am not a fan of single super specialized characters. But if you like them, go for it. However, these guys seem to NOT like them and still won’t build anything else.
I have tried to show him builds with 2-3 things they are very good at, but you can’t be good at everything. He just keeps on keeping on.
Players will not focus fire on the high threat OR try to clear out the mooks to give a clear shot at the high threat.
No coherent strategy. Even if someone suggests a strategy, everyone will agree to it, and then not follow it once combat starts.
Guy buffs for 3 rounds while combat is going on then is upset that he didn’t hardly get to participate and wasted all his buff spells.
Guy won’t use an effective spell because “It doesn’t fit his theme” then is upset that he is ineffective.
It was like pulling teeth to get these level 10-11 PC’s to buy a single potion of fly when they know for a fact that we have to go to a city amongst the clouds. They won’t buy a scroll of raise dead. Instead they will put it all into armor and cloak of resistance. I’ve tried to explain that playing with dice means sometimes the bad guys will crit on your rogue or you will roll a 1 vs a SoD spell. No matter, won’t do it
We learned there would be a whole bunch of mummy casters. I had a high level scroll of remove disease, curse, and blindness. They all commented how it really saved them and they wished we had more of them since a couple PC’s still had conditions at the end. But they are unwilling to buy any themselves. If I have them that’s great (of course I’m being a jerk if I won’t use them on everyone else). But they won’t buy any.
Hmm… Ok, that came out as more of a rant than I had intended. Sorry about that. I’m reaching my limit on their whining.
It has been coming to a head lately. Group has been complaining how the ‘modules are impossible’ or ‘you can’t play the AP past the 3rd book because it’s just too hard’ or even ‘the people writing these don’t know what they’re doing putting the levels on these since you have to be half again as high a level just to get through it.’ The times when I GM and am reading the published adventures, I usually think they are way too easy since they are designed to be playable with even fairly low system mastery.
Now some of those examples are in PFS play. I know there is less that can be done there and it is not as annoying since I probably won’t be at a table with them next time. But most of them are from one or the other of my home groups. I like the guys and I am not going to quit the group, so please don’t bother suggesting that.
If they liked the effects of playing a certain way, that would be fine. I am adaptable and can fit into most groups that have players I like. But they don’t seem to like it and still won’t change. I have tried making suggestions about tactics, builds, purchases, etc… For the most part they will agree it is a good idea. But then nothing changes.
Not sure what else to do at this point.
Oh boy, here we go.
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I concur with Tirisfal. At this point, you might as well find a new group (you dont see like you're having any fun). If you dont mind playting online, check out roll20.net, it might help you find folks.
I work with my players during character creation. They describe to me what they want to play and I help them get to a place we will both be happy. If they are building a very niche character that cannot contribute out of combat then I ask them "What are you going to do when the party is not fighting? You know that is going to happen at least half of the time, right?" Likewise, if they are building a character that just won't work I try and direct them to a concept that is in the general vicinity of what they had but will work within the group and campaign at large.
As an example, my wife in one of our first campaigns wanted to play a total pacifist and coward character. She told me she would run and hide during every combat. I told her that character concept wasn't an adventurer and would not work in an adventure-based campaign. She wound up compromising and came up with a unique and useful PC.
Work with them from the start and you may have less stress down the road. I go over the characters every level to make sure I understand what choices they made and why. If I see something that raises a red flag in my mind, I bring it up and we discuss it before it ever comes into play.
Tactics and equipment I will offer suggestions if necessary, but by and large I leave that solely up to the PCs. It's up to them to get themselves out of the sticky situations. If they are completely stumped I will chime in with suggestions after a few INT or WIS checks (that their character might have thought up even though the player did not).
Hope that helps. Good luck!
That may have come out sounding worse than it is.
I like all the people in both groups.
I usually have a good time while we are playing. The whining normally comes outside of the game session. Some of these players do not always seem like they are having a good time.
Neither group is completely full of the people from those examples.
Some of the example players are having an effect on the group play. Ex: When 2 or 3 out of 5 players don't want to finish the AP because it is too hard. Now some of us will be pushed to play something they don't want or some feel cheated out of the story finish.
I will not be quitting either group.
I have considered joining an online group, but don't have the hours in the week for a 3rd group at this time. If either group does fall apart on its own I may reconsider. But both currently look to keep going unless several move or get conflicting job schedules.
I work with my players during character creation. They describe to me what they want to play and I help them get to a place we will both be happy. If they are building a very niche character that cannot contribute out of combat then I ask them "What are you going to do when the party is not fighting? You know that is going to happen at least half of the time, right?" Likewise, if they are building a character that just won't work I try and direct them to a concept that is in the general vicinity of what they had but will work within the group and campaign at large.
As an example, my wife in one of our first campaigns wanted to play a total pacifist and coward character. She told me she would run and hide during every combat. I told her that character concept wasn't an adventurer and would not work in an adventure-based campaign. She wound up compromising and came up with a unique and useful PC.
Work with them from the start and you may have less stress down the road. I go over the characters every level to make sure I understand what choices they made and why. If I see something that raises a red flag in my mind, I bring it up and we discuss it before it ever comes into play...
I am not the primary GM in either group. Though I often run a one-shot when the primary GM needs a break. Most of the above players are very resistant to any input from other players during the character creation process or purchasing decisions. And the primary GM's do not feel like it is their place to interfere unless it is wildly inappropriate to the campaign.
... Tactics and equipment ... by and large I leave that solely up to the PCs. It's up to them to get themselves out of the sticky situations...
That's kinda my point. They don't manage to get themselves out of sticky situations. Then rather than learning from the occurrence, they just decide it is too hard.
You are having fun and they don't want help. So don't help.
Beyond that, change what you have control over. If they aren't happy with the way their characters are playing and they don't want help from you, examine why that might be. Maybe their is something that you are doing that makes getting advice from you disagreeable.
... they don't want help from you, examine why that might be. Maybe their is something that you are doing that makes getting advice from you disagreeable.
As far as I can tell, they don't seem to want advice from any of the others either.
<.< I'd let them die.
... Then you can look the other play in the eye and say "No." No, I will not use my item/character/time, etc... to assist you, get your own."
Some people need tough love. There's a difference between noob mistakes and poor play (and/or poor play ethic).
Hm... Not sure. That seems kinda douche bagery-ish. But nothing else has worked. Maybe I need to.
Dude that all sounds rough.
But honestly, if you've tried talking to them multiple times and nothng changes you need a new group. Groups like that don't last long.
You can still be friends with these people and not game with them.
It's honestly your best option. Your patience is going to wear thin and you may leave on bad terms. To be cliche, quit while you're ahead.
I think it comes down to a misunderstanding of what kind of game you want to run vs the game they think they're in.
You: Running the grittier version of reality presented in the AP. "Front brain" thinking is important here.
Them: Think they're in a superhero game. COMBAT COMBAT COMBAT (no tactics though).
Both are fun but if you superhero when you're in the grit you're gonna have a bad time. Next time the out of game complaining gets bad sit down with the group and explain why the module is hard - that the writers expect certain core competencies (covered by the standard fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard party among many other possible instantiations). Explain that you're going to allow character rebuilds using the rebuilding rules in the Ultimate Campaign book. Work specifically with the "Some of everything" guy to identify a few things for him to specialize in. If necessary you can work out a way to make certain aspects of rebuilding cheaper, perhaps due to interested NPCs.
When it comes to expendables are they holding back because of WBL issues?
I would agree with you that it really isn't the place of the other players to tell one of their own that their PC isn't viable/needs to be changed. That should fall to the GM. It's unfortunate that the GMs in your situation aren't stepping up to the plate. Sounds like they could nip some of the issues in the bud. Maybe have a chat with them if you haven't already?
...
When it comes to expendables are they holding back because of WBL issues?
Most definitely not. Both GM's are, well maybe not Monty Haul, but pretty darn generous. They like giving out powerful and interesting magic items. Near as I can tell without going down everyone's sheet in detail, we are all over double the recommended WBL chart.
They just see buying anything that is not a permanent magic item as wasting cash. Even when they find a completely free Wand of X or Scroll of Y. They will almost always sell it for a few gold rather than use it.
Recently they were in a small area that wouldn't buy the Staff of Z so they just gave it away as a gift to raise our image with someone. That actually wasn't a horrible use. But we had 3 people in the party that could have used the staff. They just won't.
I would agree with you that it really isn't the place of the other players to tell one of their own that their PC isn't viable/needs to be changed. That should fall to the GM. It's unfortunate that the GMs in your situation aren't stepping up to the plate. Sounds like they could nip some of the issues in the bud. Maybe have a chat with them if you haven't already?
Actually, I don't think their builds are not viable (except maybe everything guy). But they do not appear to be happy with what they have or the results of their actions.
it sounds like you've been playing in my group, lol.
i think humphrey is on to something- there is a discrepancy between how you see the game and want to play it, and how they do. based on my experience i'd guess for them its not 'a superhero game' but rather a video game (at least that's how a bunch of the people ive been gaming with are)... they don't want to think strategically or piece together the intrigue in the royal court that's behind these strange happenings, they just want to mash buttons (or in this case dice) and get rewarded with treasures and new abilities from leveling.
i totally feel your frustration. a while ago, i volunteered to run the next campaign and put together a 7 level adventure arc based around a series of trials; it was designed specifically (and explicitly) to encourage and reward tactical thinking, creativity, and cooperation. it was a disaster. it amounted to week after week of people complaining incessantly about how hard everything was while still refusing to work together, strategize, or in any way improve their play.
I did learn a valuable lesson from that though- some people are just chowder heads and they suck at playing the kind of games i enjoy; but i like these chowder heads and i'd rather game with them than with strangers or not at all. so i adapt...
here's 3 things i do to make my gaming experience with them more enjoyable (typically i pick 1 of these for any given character):
1. take a couple of useful out of combat skills/spells and use them in moderation (don't focus too much on it or people will get bored/grumpy, but enough to figure some stuff out and enjoy that aspect); its not unreasonable for you to say 'hey, i didn't complain when you're doing X so please grab a snack or use the john and i'll be through this in a minute.'
2. make a leader/tactician- a really smart/wise character who knows how to properly kill things can shout out suggestions during combat that other players may respond to even if they're not really open to advice on how to play/build their characters normally (this may be extra true if they see it working once or twice- you could even talk to the GM about possibly setting up a scenario or two in which your character will be able provide a huge tactical edge and thus 'earn some street cred' with the party).
3. embrace the dark side (once in a while)- i'm currently playing a hungerseed tiefling who's a Wild Rager barbarian with a dip in Ragechemist... he has no concern for what we fight or why as long as he gets to smash things. (i couldn't do it all the time, but i have to admit that sometimes it is fun to play an unstoppable death machine that's worthless for anything besides combat)
that turned out to be a long post- hope you find something helpful in it :)
I don't think either group is in danger of breaking up with hard feelings. They have been around for, I think, 5 and 8 years. Basically chugging along the same way.
This is NOT a discrepancy between the way I want to game and the way they want to game. Neither group is playing exactly the game I would prefer. I am fine with that. I would put up with a heck of a lot worse to hang out with people I like. I don't mind if their character is not optimal, takes insane risks, won't use consumables, etc... I might think it is a poor choice. But it is their choice and when all is said and done, it's ok.
I will say it again. THEY do not appear to be happy with THEIR OWN characters or the consequences of their decisions. However, they won't take any of the suggestions that anyone makes which might help them out.
The hyper combat focused guys are upset because they can't figure out how to contribute outside of standard combat situations. It doesn't bother me that I almost always have something useful to do in almost every situation. It makes me look better. They are upset about it not me.
The non-focused guy always complains that he can't keep up. It really doesn't bother me. Some of his weird skills have certainly been useful on rare occasions. And he has been at least good enough that I haven't had to waste resources saving him and he does contribute to combats decently (even if not as much as everyone else). He is disappointed in his characters performance, not me.
They are bummed because they can't play any of the high level modules because it gets too hard after about level 12. We have pointed out some of the reasons are poor tactics and unwillingness to buy anything that isn't one of the big 4 permanent magic items no matter how useful. I actually don't mind playing mostly low and mid level campaigns. I think that is where the game system works best and makes the most sense. They want to play up through level 20 and are unhappy that they can't do that.
He said, "I thought it was kinda boring tonight since there is nothing really I could do to investigate or question those guys."
I said, "Well, you were one of the guys that was really eager to have a murder/mystery adventure. So you could have built an investigator type or at least had some investigation skills. The GM is pretty free on allowing rebuilds if you want."
His response, "What no. Are you kidding, I did almost 300 points of damage to the body guard statue in one round."
I agreed, "Yep that was amazing damage. It made capturing the Don much easier since he didn't have that bodyguard to back him up. But it did only have 178 hit points. So you could de-build your guy just a bit to free up some points for intimidate and sense motive skills. You would have still be able to kill it in one round."
He looked fairly bewildered, "But then I couldn't have done 300 points of damage if we had needed it."
I said, "True. But if you really specialize at being perfect in only one thing, you won't be able to do much when it is not within your specialty."
"Yeah, but I got bored when you guys were just talking."
To re-iterate. I did not have a problem with the evening. A few of us were able to cover the investigation adequately if not wonderfully. His wiping out the nearly invulnerable construct made the combat fairly easy. A squishy caster without any protection is very vulnerable.
He was bored with not being able to investigate in the mystery adventure he (among others) specifically asked the GM to run.
He was dis-satisfied with the evening but was totally not open to even a minor change to his character which could have alleviated his complaint.
Very brief guide on how to help modify friend's behaviors.
I appreciate that your motivation seems to be getting your friends to enjoy the game more. Perhaps some of the above ideas on how to communicate will be helpful?
Try to lead by example, I guess.
What are you playing as a character?
...
Over the years, I have played a number of characters.
1/2-Orc grappling barbarian/fighter - He was great at shutting down most any 1 uber enemy as long as it wasn't too hugantic.
Samsaran illusionist wizard - This one was actually a pretty bad failure, but I learned a bit from trying it. (Hint: constitution is important!)
Human tripping lorewarden with a two-handed reach/tripping polearm - Also had a moderately high UMD and effectively used buff wands like crazy.
Half-elf undead master - the GM and I agreed that he was becoming too nasty. So he went to the dark side and became an evil (but sometimes allied) NPC.
Half-ogre barbarian/adept (this was before I knew about the rage prophet or that would have been perfect) - Had a decent charisma. Put ranks in bluff and pretended to be even dumber than she was. Big dumb likable lumbering ox. Pretending to be a complete failure as a court jester. But most people seemed to like him anyway. Was actually a lot of fun.
Gnome druid - I could never really get the hang of the druid class, but I gave it a try. Retired him after a few levels.
I'm sorry I don't really see what you want.
If you'e posting this, it seems you aren't super happy with whats going on.
You've tried to make changes and they aren't listening. They aren't playing the game that you want to play, or that they want to play for that matter (even when they suggest the type of game to play and your GM accomodates).
Even then you say you're ok with them being, for lack of a better phrase, completely whiney.
You're probably going to get frustrated sooner rather than later.
And, from my perspective, not really ok with them not taking them game serious beyond one aspect (or in one players case too many aspects).
There is no solution to this if they don't take advice.
You want to play a game where you actually enjoy yourself?
You're going to have to move on. You're GM seems super awesome. You guys should start another group.
I don't see you being able to continue on in this vain for very much longer. You've pretty much exhausted all other options.
I am ok with the game. I'm not so ok with the out of game whining, which has been a bit worse of late. They have been whining a bit more than usual so a couple of us have made more suggestions which were completely ignored.
I guess what I was looking for was another way to present the suggestions that might be more likely to be accepted by stubbornly independent players.
Very brief guide on how to help modify friend's behaviors.
I appreciate that your motivation seems to be getting your friends to enjoy the game more. Perhaps some of the above ideas on how to communicate will be helpful?
I will look at this when I get home. Can't access it from work.
Sorry for not reading all the posts to see if someone already said this , and i can assume you know about it , but maybe you can try to reinforce it.
Create a party share on the loot.
So lets say you are 4 PCs , divide the gold you get and so on for 5 and consider the 5 part a group fee.
You then discuss about using this part for things the party may need for the next aventure as a whole not a single PC. Like consumables and such.
Sorry for not reading all the posts to see if someone already said this , and i can assume you know about it , but maybe you can try to reinforce it.
Create a party share on the loot.
So lets say you are 4 PCs , divide the gold you get and so on for 5 and consider the 5 part a group fee.
You then discuss about using this part for things the party may need for the next aventure as a whole not a single PC. Like consumables and such.
Actually, no we haven't tried that. I think I'll bring that up next weekend to see if it I can talk them into it.
My suggestion is to tell the GM to run a game with the player's favorite character type expressly forbidden. Or perhaps a game with pregenerated characters that are not combat monsters. Force them to try out other character concepts. Lastly, ask to GM to make some consumable drops & perhaps make the magic mart less accessible.
I do agree a Party Share is a great idea to remove cast from their overspecialized characters.
For the scatterbrain character, the only way I can see to fix it to not allow more than two or three classes and a prestige class. This can only be done from the GM, but could help focus the character.
/cevah
Kind of have that with my group though not as bad.
We have two of us who are into the investigation and roleplaying and such, one guy who's battle cry is "enough already let's kill stuff, I need more loot" and one guy who doesn't actually bother to read the books and half the time hardly knows what his own character can do until we tell him he can do it.
The Let's Kill em player is currently an Inquisitor with the Preacher Archtype. He went with Preacher cause "none of the teamwork feats are useful for an archer". He has No ranks in social skills of any kind. His "Preaching" is "worship Desna or get shot in the face".
and it is typical for how he makes his characters. All focused on combat all choices made based on combat effectiveness and then he gets bored and goes for a smoke when we aren't fighting things.
The other guy basically plays whatever looked nasty in the previous campaign. But he doesn't read up on it and makes his choices based on simplicity then wonders why he isn't keeping up with the rest of us and why he isn't as effective as the class was in the last campaign. Like the other guy he is focused entirely on combat effectiveness but is putting in less effort.
Both players still enjoy the game and have for decades (been playing together since 2nd edition), but they rarely take suggestions or advice. They just don't see the non-combat part of the game as important.
Ultimately we just adjusted the game's playstyle to help them fit. DM always makes sure there is at least one fight a night while at the same time trying to fit in Role-Playing for me and the other RPer.
It's a delicate balance and doesn't always work but what else can you do.
We did used to have a scatterbrain as well. Would Multiclass into everything in a desperate attempt to be "useful" to the group. Useful, that was his main focus and no matter what we told him he was convinced the best way to do that was to be able to do a little bit of everything and every time he ended up useless cause he was spread too thin. We could never get him to understand why that was happening.
Unfortunately we never managed to resolve that and he left the group and eventually we fell out of touch with him completely.
On the Equipment issue
We had that issue too and we solved it by taking a hard line
Party Supply
When you split up the loot at the end of the day set a share aside for those incidentals that nobody wants to buy (IE: you have a group of 4 you divide the cash by 5. Just the Cash. Everything else gets divided up between individuals like normal). This cash is used exclusively for the Potions, Scrolls, Wands, Raise Deads, ETC.... and those items belong to everyone in the group to be used when needed. I list them under a sheet labeled "Party Supply"
You make yourself Party Treasurer and you just do. Start of each game session you make sure everyone knows what's in party supply ("We've still got 8 Cure Mod Pots and 3 scrolls of Cure disease")
If they tell you to sell that stuff or give them their money you say "No, cause we are going to need those sooner or later. If you won't buy them yourself they we buy them as a group supply instead of having you guys mooch off me all the time"
There was grumblings when I did it but my group now wouldn't be without it.
Sometimes you have to take the Hard Line
...they don't want to think strategically or piece together the intrigue in the royal court that's behind these strange happenings,
Political intrigue is for squares.
There's plenty of people I like and am friends with, that I would never opt to game with.
@Derek Dalton: you do realize this is a 2+ year old thread? :-)
/cevah
Makes me wonder how it all worked out.