The Dire Hyena and 10ft Reach, How?

[ShoulderPatch]

Not really a rules forum question because I understand how the rules work regarding the critter, and have no problem functionally running it, but I was curious what it represented descriptively.

I know very little of hyena's, or whatever prehistoric creature was the basis of the dire hyena, method of attacking. If a dire tiger was on one side of a player and a dire hyena was on the other, what exactly makes the dire hyena's attack narratively greater reaching? I had imagined it as a lunge, but I realize that would have been achieved by them having the feat lunge. Is it an extra long neck or something?

I know the 10ft Dire Hyena reach has been around awhile so I don't think it's just a typo, but I'm hoping someone who knows more about their biology can educate me. What exactly am I describing to my players when they attack but aren't adjacent?

[Kazaan]

Among Large creatures, there are "Tall" and "Long" distinctions. Tall Large gets 10' natural reach while Long Large only gets 5' natural reach. It may be an error, but as written, a Dire Hyena is Tall Large while a Dire Tiger is Long Large. Descriptively speaking, Hyenas are much more squished and compact front to back. Furthermore, even a Normal Tiger is Large sized at 9 feet long and the Dire Tiger isn't Huge so it can't be more than 10' long meaning, while it's bulkier, it's doesn't take up significantly more space. By contrast, a Hyena is medium while a Dire Hyena is large so it's a significant size increase between the two. So, imagine the following:

Normal Tiger: You know what this looks like, it's padding solidly on all fours and stalking around, often crouched low. It's well shaped for stalking because that's how tigers normally find food.

Dire Tiger: Looks very much like the Normal Tiger, but more muscular, only marginally longer and higher at the shoulder; still stalks around crouched low, but now with longer teeth.

Hyena: You know what these look like; they're more hunched at the shoulder with shorter back legs and longer front legs. Hyenas are scavengers first and hunters second. They're going to be about the same height at the shoulder to the Normal Tiger, but much more compact and their "nose-to-tail" length is set at an angle with their butt low to the ground. Not much for stalking around like the tiger, they have a more awkward gait.

Dire Hyena: Significantly taller than the Dire Tiger, but shorter front-to-back. With this extra height, they get further they can reach with their bites by "temporarily" assuming the long posture of a tiger. But their normal standing height is the "tall large" model rather than staying low to the ground like the "long large" tigers.

[CWheezy]

Kazaan wrote:

Among Large creatures, there are "Tall" and "Long" distinctions.

This might have used to be true, but it is definitely false now.

As a general rule, quadrupeds do not get reach when large, but bipeds do. It is still important to check every stat block though to make sure, as you can see from the hyena example

[Kazaan]

CWheezy wrote:

Kazaan wrote:

Among Large creatures, there are "Tall" and "Long" distinctions.

This might have used to be true, but it is definitely false now. Citation Needed

As a general rule, quadrupeds do not get reach when large, but bipeds do. It is still important to check every stat block though to make sure, as you can see from the hyena example

What makes you think I hadn't checked? I provided a pretty explicit comparison using values taken from the appropriate bestiary entries. Moreover, you say it yourself that it is a "general rule". This means there are exceptions and the Dire Hyena is presented as one of these exceptions. Another one is the Nessian Hellhound which also is a Large quarduped with 10' reach stated in its stat block.

[CWheezy]

You are making the claim that there are "tall" and "long" distinctions. Please find for me where this is stated in the rules, thanks

[Mojorat]

As far as the dire hyena goes it is not a specific animal. Its a kind of general primordial hyena like animal. It then suggests it can represent the hyaenodon. Which... has no relation to hyenas and is not even a carnivore ( in the science sense it was a meat eater)

Anyhow poctures of the hyaenodon show its built much like the norther hyena. Heavily front loaded shoulders thick skull etc. But the pics on wikipedia show its got a pretty long neck. As the poster above me stated the long tall thing is no longrer a hard rule. If an animal shoukd have reach ( like a dite hyena or an elephant) it gets reach.

Anyhow, hyaenodon appear to give the op his answer aboit the 10 foot reach.

[Lincoln Hills]

I'd probably simply regard it as an undetected error and use a house-rule to "correct" its reach to 5 feet. A hyena has many advantages, but a long serpentine neck is not one of 'em.

[David knott 242]

CWheezy wrote:

You are making the claim that there are "tall" and "long" distinctions. Please find for me where this is stated in the rules, thanks

Look at the Combat section of the Core Rulebook or the corresponding table in the Combat section of the PRD. The table "Big and Little Creatures in Combat" explicitly distinguishes the natural reaches of "tall" and "long" creatures for creatures of size Large and Larger.

[Mojorat]

To be honest? The tall long thing may either be a 3.5 rule thst was removed or an unofficial rule. Because a lot of the quadrupeds and bipeds follow the dedign principle. A search on my phone didn't turn anything up though.

Edited: seems I just used poor keywords.

Anyhow any creature can deviate if the creator wsnts it to.

[Tacticslion]

Citation.

[Samasboy1]

Mojorat wrote:

[Hyaenodon] has no relation to hyenas and is not even a carnivore ( in the science sense it was a meat eater)

While it is true that hyenas didn't descend from hyaenodon as the name might suggest, they have a common ancestor.

Also, they were carnivores (carnivore means meat eater). They hunted for their food, and some evidence indicates they even ate other carnivores.

Trying to find the most reputable site to cite...

BBC on Hyaenodon

[Velcro Zipper]

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the, er, ahem, "anatomy" of the female spotted hyena?

[Lincoln Hills]

Only as familiar as absolute necessity dictates. Thanks for asking.

[CWheezy]

Thanks tacticslion! Now I know

[Tacticslion]

*plays tune*
"That's what I'm here for~!"