Goblin Squad Member
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As a side topic that sprung up in the Community Introductions Roll Call thread.
How do you guys want Goblinworks to handle the so called "problematic" real world regions? China (and apparently Sough Korea) is very often associated with gold farming in MMOs and other methods of ingame strip mining of resources that can be sold for real money and other disruptive out of game methods like account hacking.
Do we expect GW to ban all Chinese ( and apparently South Korean) IP ranges to ensure the integrity of the economy and potentially loose out on legitimate Chinese ( and Korean ) customers?
Or do we not assume that the Chinese and Korean population consists of only gold farmers and risk the danger of said gold farmers and expose GW to a much higher administrative burden by dealing with the problem on a case by case basis?
What do you think?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think GW expects that many subs from there anyway. A small sample of where players are from from the forums gives an indication of that already albeit only an indication.
Certainly any RMT3 activity won't be profitable for a low EE population from Chinese gold-farmers when there's much bigger fish to go after (who'd only move in on a big population) I'm going to guess also? South Korea might generate some interest which is legit player engagement and investment (from some comments made previously by a guild player) so why not allow them and equally any expats or even Chinese players to play if they stumble by.
It's really more of a concern to reduce botting, economy exploits eg sitting on a monopoly of a resource early and for EE target highly incentivized players to create the right atmosphere and community in game that "buy PFO shares" so to speak with the long-term aim of adding value to them. One of the key things is Crowdforging where communication needs to remove a lot of inefficiency via distractions such as disparate playerbase who can't agree on anything or even communicate with each other in an intellectually honest capacity - motivated as I said by the previous. Hopefully the indie/niche nature of GW/PFO will self-select that mostly to begin with anyway and that is beyond nationalities though N.A and Europe/Russian/NzOz probably come into that more due to the cultural origins of the game system and the Seattle base of the developers who are making games for like-minded gamers, which just so happens to be Western-based in this case.
Hope that is a fair and measured response to this question!.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem isn't the gold farmers that are selling in game currency, it's the players that buy the currency that are the problem.
GW must create an economic system that does not encourage massive amounts of currency to be effective in the game. One of the first steps GW has already taken is that crafted items will be the best items in the game. Hopefully the absence of Phat Loot Dropz will curtail some of the need for massive amounts of gold.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Goblin Balls should keep this from being a problem.
Black Markets only thrive where something is being banned when it shouldn't be. If people have a legitimate outlet for their desires, they'll usually take it.
The problem isn't the gold farmers that are selling in game currency, it's the players that buy the currency that are the problem.
GW must create an economic system that does not encourage massive amounts of currency to be effective in the game. One of the first steps GW has already taken is that crafted items will be the best items in the game. Hopefully the absence of Phat Loot Dropz will curtail some of the need for massive amounts of gold.
I disagree, you can't kill the demand, only the supply. Some regions will just cause lag, and you know what? I want to play with people that speak English, is that so bad? Yea, I'm American, so is Pathfinder, sue me.
I want to play with people that speak English, is that so bad?Why is non-English speakers playing the game in general and you being able to play with English speaking people mutually exclusive?
One server.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I disagree, you can't kill the demand, only the supply. Some regions will just cause lag, and you know what? I want to play with people that speak English, is that so bad? Yea, I'm American, so is Pathfinder, sue me.The problem isn't the gold farmers that are selling in game currency, it's the players that buy the currency that are the problem.
GW must create an economic system that does not encourage massive amounts of currency to be effective in the game. One of the first steps GW has already taken is that crafted items will be the best items in the game. Hopefully the absence of Phat Loot Dropz will curtail some of the need for massive amounts of gold.
Honestly, you can attack both the demand and the supply. Attacking the demand by providing your own supply is an option, but veers into Pay-To-Win style shops which could be detrimental.
Attacking the supply is the safest option, but also difficult to accomplish as the targeted methods can be a moving target and catch innocents by mistake.
Personally, I think the game design itself provides a way to fight back. Limited fast travel makes it difficult for them to "fill their bags and get out of dodge". For bandits, they essentially become roving treasure chests to be exploited. It would not be very profitable use of time to run back and forth between wilderness and markets to stow your earnings for sale so that they aren't lost with the next attack.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I disagree, you can't kill the demand, only the supply. Some regions will just cause lag, and you know what? I want to play with people that speak English, is that so bad? Yea, I'm American, so is Pathfinder, sue me.The problem isn't the gold farmers that are selling in game currency, it's the players that buy the currency that are the problem.
GW must create an economic system that does not encourage massive amounts of currency to be effective in the game. One of the first steps GW has already taken is that crafted items will be the best items in the game. Hopefully the absence of Phat Loot Dropz will curtail some of the need for massive amounts of gold.
Honestly, you can attack both the demand and the supply. Attacking the demand by providing your own supply is an option, but veers into Pay-To-Win style shops which could be detrimental.
Attacking the supply is the safest option, but also difficult to accomplish as the targeted methods can be a moving target and catch innocents by mistake.
Personally, I think the game design itself provides a way to fight back. Limited fast travel makes it difficult for them to "fill their bags and get out of dodge". For bandits, they essentially become roving treasure chests to be exploited. It would not be very profitable use of time to run back and forth between wilderness and markets to stow your earnings for sale so that they aren't lost with the next attack.
While out doing my scout duties, if I was to run across suspected gold farming group, I would send a message to Bluddwolf and his UNC. So they could do their stuff.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One server.And that prevents you from choosing a english-speaking company/settlement/kingdom how?
One server, just as we have one world. The USA doesn't actually have an official language, it just defaults as such because most of us know it. That being said, I do not see any reason to limit players by languages spoken. Though it should be understood that being mono-linguistic is a disadvantage. Lacking effective communication makes it difficult to do business. But that runs both ways.
I feel it is personally acceptable for you to say "if you want to do business with me, please speak English". I am likely to run that policy myself as I do not know any other languages and do not presently have time or inclination to learn them. It doesn't make sense for one person to have to learn 20 languages to do business with everyone on the server. But I do not feel that it is acceptable to limit players because of language or region unless there are very real technical reasons (server response times, localization issues, legal, etc...)
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Goblin Squad Member
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One server.And that prevents you from choosing a english-speaking company/settlement/kingdom how?One server, just as we have one world. The USA doesn't actually have an official language, it just defaults as such because most of us know it. That being said, I do not see any reason to limit players by languages spoken. Though it should be understood that being mono-linguistic is a disadvantage. Lacking effective communication makes it difficult to do business. But that runs both ways.
I feel it is personally acceptable for you to say "if you want to do business with me, please speak English". I am likely to run that policy myself as I do not know any other languages and do not presently have time or inclination to learn them. It doesn't make sense for one person to have to learn 20 languages to do business with everyone on the server. But I do not feel that it is acceptable to limit players because of language or region unless there are very real technical reasons (server response times, localization issues, legal, etc...)
I agree with Lifedragn here. Plus, I probably will remember enough of my Japanese I could work with someone speaking that language.
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Goblin Squad Member
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-snip-I want to play with people that speak English, is that so bad? Yea, I'm American, so is Pathfinder, sue me.
I wouldn't worry about it Quallz. It's a niche game for a few years so we won't have to worry and as you point out being Pathfinder it'll have a substantial player base (N.A in particular). Ryan's mentioned the Russians might get interested and there's few European guilds but you'll group with who you want and any dialogue with other player's will either be at the end of a sword or via "the common tongue" :). In fact any people with language skills in RL will probably be useful players at some stage.
While out doing my scout duties, if I was to run across suspected gold farming group, I would send a message to Bluddwolf and his UNC. So they could do their stuff.
Yes, unleash the dogs of war. I hope the grouping structure can aid against bots: Ostracizing them hopefully.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want to play with people that speak English, is that so bad? Yea, I'm American, so is Pathfinder, sue me.
I would take someone who can't speak the language well over someone who can, but is illiterate or too scatter brained to follow simple instructions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While out doing my scout duties, if I was to run across suspected gold farming group, I would send a message to Bluddwolf and his UNC. So they could do their stuff.
What a brilliant idea. We will take care of those bot-goldfarmers, oh I do so enjoy killing AFKers while they harvest.
That is the beauty of PFO's Open World PVP. Sure my attack on them would be unsanctioned, but so what! A little bit of alignment shift and rep loss will be worth the easy pickings.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Goblin Balls should keep this from being a problem.
Black Markets only thrive where something is being banned when it shouldn't be. If people have a legitimate outlet for their desires, they'll usually take it.
Doesnt work for Eve
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Goblin Squad Member
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Doesnt work for EveGoblin Balls should keep this from being a problem.
Black Markets only thrive where something is being banned when it shouldn't be. If people have a legitimate outlet for their desires, they'll usually take it.
Then CCP is charging too much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then CCP is charging too much.Doesnt work for EveGoblin Balls should keep this from being a problem.
Black Markets only thrive where something is being banned when it shouldn't be. If people have a legitimate outlet for their desires, they'll usually take it.
$14.99 for monthly subscription
$19.99 for a Plex worth one month subscription
Ninja Edit: BTW I do agree, they shouldnt be charging more then $14.99
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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How much ISK can you quickly, easily, and safely buy for $20, as compared to the amount you could get for one PLEX?
There are no problematic IP ranges to ban, because such a ban would only be effective against people who had insufficient reason to circumvent it (i.e. legitimate customers). It's trivial to find every gold-selling operation that sells to the general public- just perform a Google search and use a prepaid Visa card to have the coin delivered to a stooge. Track the money if it is cost-effective, but track the coin as well. Bannage ensues.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, when I started it was about 125 mill, now its at 550 ish and sometimes it pushes 600...
That is the reason I argue against using this in PFO... I is just a way for someone with alot of pocket cash to get the upper hand on the game because the completely rich dont want to spend their pocket money on their 10 accounts.
I do understand the reason they want to, but they can track gold buyers in some forms and hit the big buyers. Most games do this, and Eve has banned massive numbers of buyers/sellers every year.
I do also understand the sink vs faucet argument, I just do not agree with it.
Yea, we can debate this all day, but at the end of the day, it's easier to ban chinese IP's than to strive to "fix" all the problems that allowing them in-game would create.
The majority of griefers will probably come from US IPs.
Huh? lol
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Goblin Squad Member
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The majority of griefers will probably come from US IPs.Huh? lol
As you say, Pathfinder is primarily a US based property. The game servers will probably be based in the US, the majority of players will probably be from the US (with a heavy Russian contingent) and the population peaks will probably occur during US prime time.
Because of this the majority of player interaction solely involves US players. There is a fairly equal chance of griefers being from any region. Thus, the majority of griefers will be from the US.
Should we ban all US IP's to prevent this problem from arising? That example is exactly the same as banning Chinese IP's because there is the potential for the majority of botters to be from there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I support 'Net Neutrality, not thinly-veiled racism/nationalism.
GW can't realistically pin down the location and identity of its subscribers anyway. Any sanctions they put in place are going to affect those who try to play honestly and be evaded by those for whom there is profit in doing so. There will always be methods to work around simple blocks and complex methods of tracing connections are going to be more expensive than they're worth for a game company. Selling training time for cash is basically equivalent to offering a subscription, and allowing training to be sold for in-game currency provides a safe way to buy gold. Goldfarmers will try to undercut the legit market, but buying from them means risking robbery by some random person who takes your money and never delivers, or worse, uses your information to drain as much from your account as they can. On the flipside, if you're good enough and gaining gold in-game, you can be the one trading it for training time and let others fund your play.
As to language: many can't even spell three-letter words properly in the single language for which they could claim fluency. At least the challenge of getting the gist of a message in a foreign tongue is more interesting than trying to read past the gibberish some try to pass off as English. I'm not talking about typos or even the common confusion between homophones like Their, There, and They're, but rather the intentional choice to sacrifice clarity of communication for the sake of saving a couple keystrokes, which ends up as the text equivalent of monosyllabic grunting.
y r u talken lyke dat?? lulz!!!!
Literacy: It's not just for wizards anymore!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because there will already be legitimate way to obtain game money in exchange for real cash the only effect third world poverty stricken gold farmers working n some Pathfinder gold sweatshop will have is provide a cheaper blackmarket source.
In Eve the only huge benefit to new players of injecting cash is buying training implants that accelerate your skill training. CCP have deliberately encouraged this market providing one expensive implant that only works during the first 30 days of a characters life. A new character does not have the skills to use most of the more expensive equipment in the game.
NOTE ... behind the scenes the real issue with the exchange of game gold on the blackmarket is not the way it effects some individuals gaming experience.
The real issue is it facilitates money laundering of ill gotten funds from drug running, child porn and real world crime and allows transferring large amounts of real money for all sorts of nefarious reasons between countries outside any government control.
The are not banning any countries IP so let's move along lol
Great. Can I see a reference that confirms that? Once I see it, it'll be nice to put this argument aside. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the point being missed here is mass punishment and revenue. What justifiable cause would goblin-works have in banning an entire region that would have legit and illegal characters and activities.
They would be cutting into their own revenue without just cause. Just because games in the past have had an issue with "Gold-farmers" does not mean that a region should be declined invitation to participate in a game. First of all, it is quite segregationist/racist to offer forward as a legitimate strategy. The reason some of these regions have this gaming taboo associated with them is because the game allows/encourages this behavior.
As for the comments of South Korea, the United States has several military posts throughout the region that stay for a minimum of one year and some stay much longer. And to be blunt, I feel you fear the Elite Game Culture that has arisen within that region. South Koreans take pride in gaming to the point it is considered a professional sport in some aspects.
I counter all of this with a simple statement. Nothing will stand in the way of Golgotha and her objectives. If you feel the need to encourage gold-farmers by buying their gold, the Golgothan coffers will be full as we continue to take that gold from you. As far as Elite Gamers from other regions, we challenge them to meet the Golgothan Legions on the battlefield. To quote Star Trek Borg, "Resistance is futile."
I think the point being missed here is mass punishment and revenue. What justifiable cause would goblin-works have in banning an entire region that would have legit and illegal characters and activities.
They would be cutting into their own revenue without just cause. Just because games in the past have had an issue with "Gold-farmers" does not mean that a region should be declined invitation to participate in a game. First of all, it is quite segregationist/racist to offer forward as a legitimate strategy. The reason some of these regions have this gaming taboo associated with them is because the game allows/encourages this behavior.
As for the comments of South Korea, the United States has several military posts throughout the region that stay for a minimum of one year and some stay much longer. And to be blunt, I feel you fear the Elite Game Culture that has arisen within that region. South Koreans take pride in gaming to the point it is considered a professional sport in some aspects.
I counter all of this with a simple statement. Nothing will stand in the way of Golgotha and her objectives. If you feel the need to encourage gold-farmers by buying their gold, the Golgothan coffers will be full as we continue to take that gold from you. As far as Elite Gamers from other regions, we challenge them to meet the Golgothan Legions on the battlefield. To quote Star Trek Borg, "Resistance is futile."
Revenue. Something this game won't have when it's economy is destroyed by goldfarmers.
As an alternative solution, we know the game will be subscriber-based. How about we charge $20/month as a sub fee? That would probably be enough to discourage the vast majority of goldfarmers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As an alternative solution, we know the game will be subscriber-based. How about we charge $20/month as a sub fee? That would probably be enough to discourage the vast majority of goldfarmers.
Efficient farming will require training, training requires purchased training time (or subscription) and will be pay-per-character, not pay-per-account as in most games. It will be impossible to have 10 gathering alts paid for by one account subscription.
If a one-year old gold farming character is apprehended and permabanned, it will take a lot of time and money to make up for the loss.
I'm not saying gold farming won't be possible or won't be profitable, just saying it might be tougher to do in PFO than in many other games.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wouldn't a ban affect the honest players but be easily circumvented by the 'unwanted' elements, by routing traffic through foreign servers?
I'm no tech wiz but changing your apparent region isn't very hard, right?
This point really ends the discussion for me unless someone can counter it. My apologies if someone has but I've only done a quick look through of this topic. I can't see the merits in even discussing this system if it's truely that easy to bypass.