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Now in most cases i wouldn't be asking for advice on how to build a pally, but i find my self in a very interesting situation given that my group just leveled up to 3 so we're still very much grass roots. So he's still in his formative years and I would like him to become a truly awesome force of justice. My pally rolled AWESOME stats during generation and can pretty much get any feat he wants, which leaves me confused on what to give him, spoiled for choice i would say. So i've decided to turn to the forums for advice, what the hell should i do with this guy?
Human Paladin lvl 3
Current feats:
Endurance
Diehard (don't knock saved our bacon a ton)
Stats:
Str: 20 (18+2 from human)
Dex: 15
Con: 18
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 18
Ac: 22 (DM gave us some sweet gear early on hell yeah MW half plate!)
You don't really need Endurance or Die Hard.
Power Attack is important, and you could take Unsanctioned Knowledge with your high int.
But a Paladin almost needs no feats (only Power Attack), especially yours. So get sth. you like, e.g. Skill Focus: Craft coffin (for your poor enemies).
Nice combat feats are Step Up, Step up & Strike, Combat Reflexes
Perhaps for later: Eldritch Heritage, Improved, Greater (Orc Bloodline)
Now in most cases i wouldn't be asking for advice on how to build a pally, but i find my self in a very interesting situation given that my group just leveled up to 3 so we're still very much grass roots. So he's still in his formative years and I would like him to become a truly awesome force of justice. My pally rolled AWESOME stats during generation and can pretty much get any feat he wants, which leaves me confused on what to give him, spoiled for choice i would say. So i've decided to turn to the forums for advice, what the hell should i do with this guy?
Human Paladin lvl 3
Current feats:
Endurance
Diehard (don't knock saved our bacon a ton)Stats:
Str: 20 (18+2 from human)
Dex: 15
Con: 18
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 18Ac: 22 (DM gave us some sweet gear early on hell yeah MW half plate!)
I'm not sure if your GM is allowing you to re-select your feats or if you're just looking ahead for what's 'next', but there are some pretty important feat options to consider with Paladins:
Fey Foundling: this is an absolute must have for Paladins in my opinion though I often reflavor it as something else, usually divine in nature. It must be taken at 1st level though.
Extra Lay on Hands: Forget Smite - Lay on Hands is the class-defining power for Paladins and is arguably the most potent in the game. Self heals as swift actions for Martials? Yes, please. It becomes doubly important for Paladin Archetypes that allow you to burn uses for other purposes (like Oath of Vengeance or Oath Against Fiends). Don't overlook Heroic Defiance when it comes time to select spells - it'll save your bacon plenty of times.
Eldritch Heritage feats - a really great way to customize your character down the road, these feats are often taken on high Charisma characters and can be re-flavored to suit any backstory. For Paladins, the Orc Bloodline seems to be most often pursued.
Power Attack and Deadly Aim give you good options to maximize your Smites since the Attack penalty is mitigated - people often forget you can Smite with a ranged weapon and just how powerful that option can be.
Diehard and Endurance are two feats I would never, ever take unless pursuing the Stalwart/Improved Stalwart feat line. If you're locked into your current selections then I would encourage you to take a strong look at those feats as options.
Honestly though, with those ridiculous stats (funny how people who roll stats always seem to 'get lucky') and your GM Monty-Halling gear, I'm not sure your feat selections really matter anyway...
I like how the OP said Diehard has already been very useful for him, and everyone's trashing on it anyway. :P
Fey Foundling: this is an absolute must have for Paladins in my opinion though I often reflavor it as something else, usually divine in nature. It must be taken at 1st level though.
Extra Lay on Hands: Forget Smite - Lay on Hands is the class-defining power for Paladins and is arguably the most potent in the game. Self heals as swift actions for Martials? Yes, please. It becomes doubly important for Paladin Archetypes that allow you to burn uses for other purposes (like Oath of Vengeance or Oath Against Fiends). Don't overlook Heroic Defiance when it comes time to select spells - it'll save your bacon plenty of times.
Eldritch Heritage feats - a really great way to customize your character down the road, these feats are often taken on high Charisma characters and can be re-flavored to suit any backstory. For Paladins, the Orc Bloodline seems to be most often pursued.
Power Attack and Deadly Aim give you good options to maximize your Smites since the Attack penalty is mitigated - people often forget you can Smite with a ranged weapon and just how powerful that option can be.
+1 to all of the above. Fey Foundling pays huge dividends to Paladins. Extra Lay on Hands is like Toughness on steroids (a paladin without fey foundling effectively gains around 7 extra HP per level plus whatever mercy benefits from Extra Lay on Hands).
Ultimate Mercy is pretty cool too. I built a paladin who could raise dead at 7th.
Greater Mercy is quite nice at low level, but by mid levels you'll hardly notice it. If you're allowed to retrain feats then cool it's a worthy feat, otherwise I'd take something else.
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Greater Mercy is quite nice at low level, but by mid levels you'll hardly notice it. If you're allowed to retrain feats then cool it's a worthy feat, otherwise I'd take something else.
You're right that it doesn't scale well (it'd be cool if it was d6/mercy) but its not bad. Surviving the early levels is extremely important. I also dot think a d6+2 extra healing 5-10 times a day is ever a bad thing.
Greater Mercy is quite nice at low level, but by mid levels you'll hardly notice it. If you're allowed to retrain feats then cool it's a worthy feat, otherwise I'd take something else.You're right that it doesn't scale well (it'd be cool if it was d6/mercy) but its not bad. Surviving the early levels is extremely important. I also dot think a d6+2 extra healing 5-10 times a day is ever a bad thing.
I think its a good feat - but two extra uses of Lay on Hands seems to be the better option, especially for builds that burn uses for other options.
Personally I quite like having equal starting str and dex on a paladin and having my first feats as: Fey Foundling, Power Attack, Deadly Aim. Can pretty much always contribute in combat, and when you get divine bond it just gets better.
Wouldn't Greater Mercy have even a greater benefit the higher level you get? Doesn't your LoH uses increase with level? So with 7 uses alone thats 7d6 extra healing.
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Greater Mercy is quite nice at low level, but by mid levels you'll hardly notice it. If you're allowed to retrain feats then cool it's a worthy feat, otherwise I'd take something else.
I have a paladin, and she's the only focussed party healer. It's going to wane in effectiveness very quickly (we're 4th level now), but since my character's role is mainly as a healer (she's aaaaaall charisma), it still seemed worth it.
Greater Mercy is quite nice at low level, but by mid levels you'll hardly notice it. If you're allowed to retrain feats then cool it's a worthy feat, otherwise I'd take something else.I have a paladin, and she's the only focussed party healer. It's going to wane in effectiveness very quickly (we're 4th level now), but since my character's role is mainly as a healer (she's aaaaaall charisma), it still seemed worth it.
More worth it than two additional uses of Lay on Hands?
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you could have made this exact same character but taken fey foundling at first level, then dip into unbreakable fighter at 3rd level, or first if you wanted to be the tanky type.
anyway to answer your question seeing as though it looks like you're going for a hp sponge i would suggest extra layon hands.
While I don't think Ultimate Mercy is right for every paladin, it's pretty awesome to have a way to raise the dead without a material component cost. All you have to do is eat one negative level that goes away after 24 hours. Depending on how frequently members of your group, your party, or NPCs die, that basically makes your Paladin pretty freaking amazing.
Another PC die? Ultimate Mercy.
Some NPC die? Ultimate Mercy.
Animal Companion / Mount / Familiar / Follower / Cohort / Hamster die? Ultimate Mercy.
It's even worth it during an adventure in most cases. Taking on a -1 to d20 checks and -5 HP is generally worth bringing back a while character.
I strongly second Greater Mercy. I have a backup character who is a Pali with Fey Foundling at 1st, Greater Mercy at 3rd, and ELOH to be followed by Ultimate Mercy when attainable.
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It was definitely more worth it at 3rd level. I could double my healing, or get two additional uses per day.
I took fey foundling as an extra feat at first (flaws and benefits), and then power attack and deadly aim.
3rd level was greater mercy.
I"m going to be concentrating on ELOH mostly from here on out, but as the main party healer, doubling my healing at the painful lower levels was pretty critical. I also like that I will still get something out of the healing if the mercy isn't used (I picked fatigue mostly for the barbarian), especially considering it gives me an extra die for self heals with fey foundling.
More worth it than two additional uses of Lay on Hands?
Generally, it is about the same.
When it comes to the number of dice of healing per day that you get, the higher your charisma is, the more the advantage is for greater mercy. If you dump charisma, the additional uses gets you more dice in the end.
But which is better depends on your build.
Additional uses is better if you are using it to attack undead or heal lower damage totals for more people or out of combat. It is also better for several archetypes that have class abilities that use these uses to power them.
Greater mercy is better if you are healing higher damage totals during combat, if you are a tank using the swift lay on hands to heal during combat, or if you need it as a stepping stone for ultimate mercy to be the party member raising dead. The main advantage of the feat is the economy of actions; you deliver more dice of healing with each standard action (on others) or swift action (on yourself).
I like how the OP said Diehard has already been very useful for him, and everyone's trashing on it anyway. :P
Paladin: swift action lay on hands on self, with the remove fatigue mercy, and the spell hero's defiance trumps both these feats.
Unless you wanted a 1 level oracle dip (sidestep secret) I can't see why you'd want to multiclass on a Paladin.
+1 on Fey Foundling + Hero's Defiance. My last DM banned that spell because it was too powerful (lol).