I've got a witch in my group with a viper familiar. Because he doesn't want to lose his familiar, and thus his ability to cast spells, he insists on wearing the viper around his wrist at all times.
Since the viper is a 'tiny' creature, thus able to share the same space as a Medium creature, I've been allowing it but I feel like I should be treating that hand as occupied for purposes of somatic components and other activities requiring a free hand.
Anyone have experience with this type of situation who is willing to share how they handled it?
Similarly, I have a gnome who insists on climbing all over the other party members so he can see what's going on during combat. Should I require strength checks, dex penalties, concentration checks, etc, when this happens? Would this count as a move action? Seems to make sense to me. Anyone have experience with this?
There is an item familiar satchel I think its called that pretty much makes them untargetable. So there isn't even any need for "wearing" it.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
climb checks for the gnome....if party members suddenly find themselves more encumbered a few times in the middle of combat they will beat the crap out of the climby gnome. A gnome is not exactly light when you figure him and his stuff into the equation...
Why are you concerned with him wearing the viper? Are you planning on targeting it? If not then don't worry about it. It is his spellbook and he wants to protect it. If it isn't being a bracelet it could crawl all over inside of his clothes and it wouldn't matter. I had a pet rat snake that would spend hours just hanging out on me while I did dishes, vacuumed the apartment, went for walks, went shopping....I never had any trouble and I didn't share a link with it.
Let it go unless you are planning to screw over the player by targeting it unnecessarily.
climb checks for the gnome....if party members suddenly find themselves more encumbered a few times in the middle of combat they will beat the crap out of the climby gnome. A gnome is not exactly light when you figure him and his stuff into the equation...
Why are you concerned with him wearing the viper? Are you planning on targeting it? If not then don't worry about it. It is his spellbook and he wants to protect it. If it isn't being a bracelet it could crawl all over inside of his clothes and it wouldn't matter. I had a pet rat snake that would spend hours just hanging out on me while I did dishes, vacuumed the apartment, went for walks, went shopping....I never had any trouble and I didn't share a link with it.
Let it go unless you are planning to screw over the player by targeting it unnecessarily.
This is more or less the direction I was leaning in. I don't have a problem with him doing this except that since the viper doesn't do anything but sit there, he tends to forget to roleplay the fact the he is wearing a damned snake as a bracelet. Strangers tend to give him funny looks when they see a venomous snake on his wrist.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Familiar Satchel Price 25 GP Weight 6 lbs.
This armored case provides total cover to any Tiny or smaller creature contained within it. It includes air holes (which can be plugged with cork stoppers if you need to go underwater) and two receptacles for food and water.
End of problem?
- Gauss
Be sure to bring up the safety issues of area-of-effect spells. When I have a familiar I usually instruct it to keep well away from me during combat, because I don't want it rolling a natural 1 vs. lightning bolt; other players I know use various containers to provide the familiar with improved cover. (Various tricks involving extradimensional space go even further along this path.)You don't have to worry about aoe spells for the same reason you don't worry about your gear. Unless you roll a one on your save your gear is fine, snake included.
Lincoln Hills is absolutely correct here. The familiar is a creature and follows the rule for creatures not objects. Just because it is an "equipped" creature, doesn't change it's creature status.
Imagine if an enemy creature of size tiny was sharing a PC's space. The GM wouldn't rule that the creature operates on your saving throw. Same applies here.
Anyone have experience with this type of situation who is willing to share how they handled it?
I allow it and do it regularly myself. The thing that comes up most is if the familiar can be used for fetching objects or such(mechanical benefits). It only really interferes with the game I think if you were planning to kill or attack the familiar(which I never am and I think is a jerk move tbh). I also think its thematic to keep a viper coiled around your arm, how is that not awesome!?
Similarly, I have a gnome who insists on climbing all over the other party members so he can see what's going on during combat. Should I require strength checks, dex penalties, concentration checks, etc, when this happens? Would this count as a move action? Seems to make sense to me. Anyone have experience with this?
Climbing over them? For what reason? If it doesn't give him any mechanical benefits I say let him do it. Just roleplay it out or do whatever you have fun with climbs over people's shoulder. I remember one time I carried a gnome on my back through water until combat started. When it started I chucked the gnome barbarian at someone and we just laughed and made a lot of banter and had fun with it. No rolls, beyond an attack roll with an improvised gnome.
Personally, if a GM were to tell me that I'd be penalized for wearing a viper around my wrist, I'd say, "Okay," and then drape it around my neck as a scarf or necklace instead.
I've got a witch in my group with a viper familiar. Because he doesn't want to lose his familiar, and thus his ability to cast spells, he insists on wearing the viper around his wrist at all times.
Since the viper is a 'tiny' creature, thus able to share the same space as a Medium creature, I've been allowing it but I feel like I should be treating that hand as occupied for purposes of somatic components and other activities requiring a free hand.
I don't think this is necessary. For starters, the familiar represents the witch's bond with magic. Waving a snake-laden arm around is pretty thematic. Maybe the viper even wriggles about while he does it.
Anyone have experience with this type of situation who is willing to share how they handled it?
What advantage is this conferring to the player that's so bad you are seeking to negate it? Are you trying to target the familiar? If so, the player is really just roleplaying by recognizing this and keeping it safe. The mechanical sacrifice is built in to the action — no using the familiar as a spy or a minor combatant. He's basically downgraded himself to an object focus, but without the bonus spell. Why push it further? What has the player done wrong?
Similarly, I have a gnome who insists on climbing all over the other party members so he can see what's going on during combat. Should I require strength checks, dex penalties, concentration checks, etc, when this happens? Would this count as a move action? Seems to make sense to me. Anyone have experience with this?
"So he can see what is going on during combat" — normally small characters don't suffer any penalty to line-of-sight from altitude. It's fine to ad-lib that in where it makes sense, but if a player is going to go ahead and describe the climbing about and the allies are okay with that, then a move action is pricey enough.
An acrobatics check, maybe, DC 15, if the gnome is doing something that requires both hands.
But again, this sounds like a fun, thematic thing that your player is trying to do. Based on these questions, some GM self-assessment is called for. Do you find yourself regularly thinking "no, they shouldn't" when your players try to do something they think is cool and interesting?
The game is plenty difficult without being made to look foolish on inconsequential rolls. Players should be allowed to feel like their character is cool — save the hard rolls and action denial for the big scenes where it really matters.
For reflex saves the familiar should indeed save as an object (using the maximum of its save and the wearer's save) because the wearer can shield it and it can evade independently by eg. crawling up the wearer's sleeve.
I'd wear it around my neck, though. It's less likely to make people afraid of shaking hands and in an already very high priority location for protecting when making reflex saves.
I'd appreciate if you could point me to the rule that states a worn familiar is treated as an object for saving throws against aoe spells.
|
To the OP. My GM call would be that the viper on his wrist would be a hindrance on Concentration checks and actions involving the hand.
For instance:
> -2 on Concentration checks to cast spells while being grappled or being tossed about physically.
> -2 on open locks, climbing, attacking with that hand, etc[/list]
I would not do much more though unless the viper was big for it's species. The viper should also take up the wrist slot.
Also, don't forget to make sure the player counts the weight for encumbrance.
As Xaratherus said, around the neck is fine, though it would take up a neck slot.
The d20srd site has a great table from D&D3.5 for general info on monsters by size. You might check it out for a starting place to determine familiar sizes. For the small creatures, I would tend to stick in the middle of the size and weight ranges unless other info slanted it one way or another.
.
.
As for the climbing gnome...take your 6 year old son, put him on your back, and then go play some football. See you at the hospital. Not a good idea for obvious reasons. Unless you (the OP) are applying penalties to perception due to the presence of enemy's and allies, I see no reason why he would do this. The player probably has some other motive. Find out what he is trying to gain and don't feel bad implementing some penalties to balance the benefit if they feel reasonable.
|
|
I had the exact same situation come up with a witch and viper familiar a few years ago. I recommend just letting it go. The weight of a tiny viper isn't going to impede the witch's gestures and, even at INT 6 or 7, the viper with an empathic link to its master is going to be smart enough to slither to a less cumbersome spot when it does seem to be in the way.
That said, here are a couple things possibly worth pointing out about my situation.
The familiar still has to make saving throws for things like fireballs and lightning bolts. Just cuz it's on the witch's wrist that doesn't make it a watch. It's a separate creature in the AoE. Let its evasion ability represent its ability to quickly duck into a pocket or use its master as cover.
My player went the extra mile and asked to use his snake as a weapon, basically having it strike foes from his wrist as he flailed his arm at them. I let him do it, but I made it a standard action that used the snake's attack bonus. I also gave him the option of using it as an off hand attack with the snake's attack bonus -5. I warned him that using his snake this way opened it up to being disarmed, grappled away from him and "sundered." The snake got to use its own AC against attacks directed toward it, but he still eventually lost it to a shadow.
|
|
But again, this sounds like a fun, thematic thing that your player is trying to do. Based on these questions, some GM self-assessment is called for. Do you find yourself regularly thinking "no, they shouldn't" when your players try to do something they think is cool and interesting?
To me it seem something extremely annoying to the other players (and their characters) that the gnome player do with the excuse of role playing. Our vision of what is cool and interesting or annoying and buffoonish is very different.
- * -
Viper familiar:
I had a terrarium with 2 vipers in my house for one summer. Even a young viper isn't so small. Wearing one on a wrist will hinder your hand movements a bit, enough, I think, that casting spell with that hand, if it is the only free hand you have available for casting, should generate a small failure chance, on the order of a 1-2% failure chance.
Wearing it on the waist or shoulder shouldn't be a problem (and it would not use up a item slot. It is not a magical item).
The viper has a weight. For a small specimen 1/2 pound is more than enough, larger exemplars will weight a few pounds, so it should add his weight to the weight of what the witch is carrying.
Diego Rossi, so what you are saying is that they weigh equal to or less than a Mithral Buckler which has no spell failure or ACP? :)
- Gauss
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Be very very careful when you start putting penalties on character's fluff choices. He's not doing it for any obvious benefit so I'd let him have it.
I'm tellin ya right now its going to turn them into hyper optimized blank slates who don't want to do anything for flavor reasons and are only looking forward to the next combat.
Let them do what helps them feel cool and get attached to that character. That benefit far outweighs the cons of anything that could be a result. Also if you have a bag of holding or a handy haversack it could just be readying actions to flee into it.
Diego Rossi, so what you are saying is that they weigh equal to or less than a Mithral Buckler. Which has no spell failure? :)
- Gauss
Don't forget any bracers(or other applicable wrist item), gloves and rings the Character may be wearing, I know my spell casting gets really bad when I wear all that stuff, especially those spiked gauntlets.
You don't need a satchel for a viper. The thing is designed to crawl all over your body. During combat, just have it duck into a pocket or a small opening in your backpack (or, heck, your shirt). Any of these should be more than sufficient to give it total cover, same as the satchel. The satchel is more necessary for clumsier familiars that don't work well in clothing, like cats or armadillos.
That said, you might encourage them to get a satchel anyway. Your familiar deserves a home of its own.
|
|
Diego Rossi, so what you are saying is that they weigh equal to or less than a Mithral Buckler which has no spell failure or ACP? :)
- Gauss
Yes. But a live creature that move and shift its balance to stay grappled to your wrist is different from a "small metal shield ... strapped to your forearm".
Rule wise, the viper is grappling you. :DDecidedly excessive, but the viper is very different from a bracelet.
That said, you might encourage them to get a satchel anyway. Your familiar deserves a home of its own.
I wonder how much you would have to charge him extra for the built in mini fridge, extra closet space, and Black Onyx studded exterior. Remember, your familiar deserves to live in style.
|
|
You don't need a satchel for a viper. The thing is designed to crawl all over your body. During combat, just have it duck into a pocket or a small opening in your backpack (or, heck, your shirt). Any of these should be more than sufficient to give it total cover, same as the satchel. The satchel is more necessary for clumsier familiars that don't work well in clothing, like cats or armadillos.
That said, you might encourage them to get a satchel anyway. Your familiar deserves a home of its own.
Your garments don't give total cover. At best they would block line of sight, but they don't block line of effect (if you allow them to give full cover and block line of effect, I will go around in a Renaissance full palate and be immune to most spells).
That said, you might encourage them to get a satchel anyway. Your familiar deserves a home of its own.I wonder how much you would have to charge him extra for the built in mini fridge, extra closet space, and Black Onyx studded exterior. Remember, your familiar deserves to live in style.
Considering the size of it all, lets hope only several platinum and hes set.
Regardless it really shouldn’t cause any penaltys for the Character Fluff they want to use. Besides that, its a Gnome, if the snake on the wrist is the thing that frightens people during social interactions and not the short person the size of a child with the Colourful hair (and probably older than them) with the strange personality, something is probably wrong....
Your garments don't give total cover. At best they would block line of sight, but they don't block line of effect (if you allow them to give full cover and block line of effect, I will go around in a Renaissance full palate and be immune to most spells).You don't need a satchel for a viper. The thing is designed to crawl all over your body. During combat, just have it duck into a pocket or a small opening in your backpack (or, heck, your shirt). Any of these should be more than sufficient to give it total cover, same as the satchel. The satchel is more necessary for clumsier familiars that don't work well in clothing, like cats or armadillos.
That said, you might encourage them to get a satchel anyway. Your familiar deserves a home of its own.
Why not make an exception for the familiar anyway? The alternative is a tiny gold tax or that you allow the thing to be hit in combat or spend turns hiding for whatever reason. May as well let him hang out.
This is more or less the direction I was leaning in. I don't have a problem with him doing this except that since the viper doesn't do anything but sit there, he tends to forget to roleplay the fact the he is wearing a damned snake as a bracelet. Strangers tend to give him funny looks when they see a venomous snake on his wrist.
Why does he need to role-play anything here? Wearing a snake on his wrist is perfectly normal for his character - nothing strange about it. Role-play of NPC reactions is what is in order here, which is you, not him. If he forgets to 'remove the snake' or whatever is called for in the appropriate social situation, let his forgetting be a thorn in the social interaction result they hoped to achieve.
Personally, if a GM were to tell me that I'd be penalized for wearing a viper around my wrist, I'd say, "Okay," and then drape it around my neck as a scarf or necklace instead.
I'd be fine with that, but I would say the familiar should occupy a magic item body slot, if you see what I mean.
That's speaking as a GM; As a player, I think I should just be able to keep my familiar in my pocket. (Fine, component pouch or whatever.)
Personally, if a GM were to tell me that I'd be penalized for wearing a viper around my wrist, I'd say, "Okay," and then drape it around my neck as a scarf or necklace instead.I'd be fine with that, but I would say the familiar should occupy a magic item body slot, if you see what I mean.
That's speaking as a GM; As a player, I think I should just be able to keep my familiar in my pocket. (Fine, component pouch or whatever.)
Can I enchant the familiar too? I want him to double as an amulet of mighty fist!
Can I enchant the familiar too? I want him to double as an amulet of mighty fist!Personally, if a GM were to tell me that I'd be penalized for wearing a viper around my wrist, I'd say, "Okay," and then drape it around my neck as a scarf or necklace instead.I'd be fine with that, but I would say the familiar should occupy a magic item body slot, if you see what I mean.
That's speaking as a GM; As a player, I think I should just be able to keep my familiar in my pocket. (Fine, component pouch or whatever.)
That will definitely require the Improved Familiar feat . . . And crafting rules! :P
That will definitely require the Improved Familiar feat . . . And crafting rules! :PCan I enchant the familiar too? I want him to double as an amulet of mighty fist!Personally, if a GM were to tell me that I'd be penalized for wearing a viper around my wrist, I'd say, "Okay," and then drape it around my neck as a scarf or necklace instead.I'd be fine with that, but I would say the familiar should occupy a magic item body slot, if you see what I mean.
That's speaking as a GM; As a player, I think I should just be able to keep my familiar in my pocket. (Fine, component pouch or whatever.)
Or a 1 level dip in Tattooed Sorcerer. ;)
Personally, if a GM were to tell me that I'd be penalized for wearing a viper around my wrist, I'd say, "Okay," and then drape it around my neck as a scarf or necklace instead.I'd be fine with that, but I would say the familiar should occupy a magic item body slot, if you see what I mean.
That's speaking as a GM; As a player, I think I should just be able to keep my familiar in my pocket. (Fine, component pouch or whatever.)
So if I wanted to add on any of the 3 non-magical necklaces I also have then I cant wear my magic one?
Those poor animals D: that's animal abuse!
|
The rules are rather too strict (IMO) regarding sharing a space, making it only doable by creatures of three sizes difference, which I think is overly harsh and unrealistic.
People wear snakes all the time; they go round bars, showing them off and charging people to have their picture taken with them.
The staff have certainly shown they support the wearing of Tiny animals, since there's a major NPC in Council of Thieves who does exactly that, and I don't recall any text describing her being reduced to staggering around, from it 'squeezing' into her square.
Your garments don't give total cover. At best they would block line of sight, but they don't block line of effect (if you allow them to give full cover and block line of effect, I will go around in a Renaissance full palate and be immune to most spells).You don't need a satchel for a viper. The thing is designed to crawl all over your body. During combat, just have it duck into a pocket or a small opening in your backpack (or, heck, your shirt). Any of these should be more than sufficient to give it total cover, same as the satchel. The satchel is more necessary for clumsier familiars that don't work well in clothing, like cats or armadillos.
That said, you might encourage them to get a satchel anyway. Your familiar deserves a home of its own.
Let me put it another way. If your shirt can't take any damage without rolling a natural 1 on your save, why should the familiar behind it be any different? Just let the gnome wear his snake.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just let the gnome wear his snake.
Haha, sorry, there were two different questions in my OP. The gnome isn't the one with the snake. Anyway, I've decided to let the witch continue wearing the snake around his wrist because, no harm, no foul.
It would be unfair to penalize him for a roleplaying choice.
El Cuervo, your change of heart has made my day. Rock on!
Blahpers: OI agree that the rules-as-written for area effects vs. familiars are harsh, but the Rules Questions forum, as I have been reminded at times with varying degrees of politeness, is for inquiring about what the rules have to say - and as far as I know the only difficulty involved in having a Tiny creature (with a climb speed) moving around on a larger creature (that is not a mount) involves its susceptibility to area-of-effect spells.
Well, no, wait. Does the snake bring the witch into a higher encumbrance bracket? Because that's the only other potential penalty that springs to mind. Snakes are surprisingly hefty.
The rules are silent on the subject of wearing a creature. Otherwise, even the satchel would cause squeezing.
Funnily enough, in a recent game I was running, I had a witch wear his snapping turtle familiar as a codpiece.
Funnily enough, in a recent game I was running, I had a witch wear his snapping turtle familiar as a loincloth.
Mine has a bird nested in her hair. Most of the time, nobody notices it. (I suppose hair gives concealment? Stealth check!)
Funnily enough, in a recent game I was running, I had a witch wear his snapping turtle familiar as a codpiece.
That sounds painful!
That gnome would get pasted in any game I ran, and not by me.