What do like about the Samurai base class? What do you not like? I'm thinking of making one, and am eager to find out more about their strengths and weaknesses and about how people generally feel about the class.
I rolled up a Samurai (Order of the Warrior) for our RotRL campaign (I joined at 5th level and played through until 12th level) and really enjoyed it. In constrained dungeons at earlier levels it was a bit frustrating to have to leave my mount outside but fairly soon dungeons were built around large enemies and so my faithful horse could come along as well.
- The class is particularly well suited to crit-fishing with a katana 2H even without spending many feats specifically on the katana (I took weapon focus and weapon specialization for the katana but I probably wouldn't do it again).
- If you build around general combat feats (power attack, furious focus, critical focus + friends) you can be effective with any two-handed weapon, say starting combat with reach (maybe a mw lance for charging) and quickly switching to a katana when the situation calls for it.
- Don't build around charging, you're fine at it without spending any feats in that direction.
- Do spend three ranks on acrobatics.
edit: I'm working on a reference samurai build to post on the Guide to the Builds. I'll let you know when I post it.
What do like about the Samurai base class? What do you not like?
Personally, I think the class has a lot of the issues the cavalier does with orders(there are quiet a few, edicts have similar problems to the pally code, and they aren't customizable at all), and I feel like they're torn between several playstyles(rather than cavalier's, who have a good chunk of their class features devouted to one). However.. I could see a lot of good builds with them, and I much prefer weapon expertise/last stand to the focus on charging with a mount. They don't have a big draw that I can see however, because most of their class features are hidden in their order, and quiet a few of them don't get anything interesting until later. I don't feel like there is much if anything that I can do with a samurai, that I can't with someone else(though a few orders do have actual class features in them) Another thing is that they don't have much support from books it doesn't look like, but if you have a GM who'll work with you about orders I think they'll be much more enjoyable.
Edit: I forgot to mention resolve and challenge. I hate them both because both are attached to an x/day mechanic. They're limited, and attaching class features to your x/day challenge is bleh.
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All of the above is true. I play mine like a switch hitter, except instead of a bow/polearm I'm charging with a lance. 2H is definitely the way to go with a samurai since you can do it super effectively with minimal feat outlay.
Resolve is also super handy for dealing with conditions. Resolve alone makes samurai better than standard cavaliers, IMO.
I frontloaded a 2-level dip in sohei/MoMS to pick up the Crane style feat tree, saves, bonus feats, class skills, and the sohei's ability to always act in the surprise round.
Samurai Pros: The Samurai isn't nearly as restricted by its allies as the Cavalier is. Resolve is a much more powerful limited-use ability that makes much more thematic sense being limited-use. In a historic sense, the Samurai is an extremely accurate portrayal of the traditional fighting style of real-world samurai. The samurai often avoids the problem of "all my class eggs are in the mounted combat basket, so half of my features don't work when the GM throws me a dungeon."
Samurai Cons: The Samurai has the same problems that the Cavalier possesses; it comes with almost no customization options. Samurai does not stack with virtually any Cavalier archetypes. The Samurai has many generalist abilities (Mounted Archery, Mounted Combat, Weapon Expertise, etc.) but it does not possess archetypes (yet) that allows you to specialize in a particular method of fighting. Considering its very broad themes, the Samurai arguably does not possess enough feats to become competent in archery, melee weapon fighting, and mounted combat simultaneously. The Sword Saint is not a strong archetype. Although the samurai is more multiclass-friendly than the cavalier, the samurai does not multiclass well because of a high dependency on "samurai level."
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I have a Sword Saint Samurai( with the customizable edicts that the Ronin order provides) in my homebrew game and as a Dm this is my opinion of the class.
-It is the Crit Fishing class given how easy it is to confirm with a Katana/Wakazashi provided it's your chosen weapon w/ expertise. Full Bab & effective fighter levels with that weapon help keep the Samurai lethal in Martial combat.
-Challenges are infinitely easier to use than Smites due to the lack of restrictions on them. And yeah it's still a limited per day, but it is a boss killer ability. Always good to have.
-Resolve is a very strong mechanic all around.
-Order is fine too, largely cause he set his own rules. Mechanically it is useful, not the best but it does have some niche appeal(the time he's fought another Samurai or an anti Pali it's come in handy).
-Now, a Sword Saint's burst move is harder to pull off, but very satisfying when it happens.
All in all, I like the class a lot. I feel it's one of the Strongest Martial classes in the game actually.
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I played a Samurai in JR, starting soon into book 2 i think. Its all Pros. Challenge is a really good mechanic, resolve is even better and recharges a use on defeating your challenge, so you can push on for a long time.
i had a mount i rarely used, but this was before Animal companion book. I didn't use it because it was slowing combat down(very limited play time) and she was to precious to the character to risk. She was very useful when i did use her.
I was an Order of the Cockatrice build that focused on critical hits.
good luck
GeneticDrift, I don't own the "Animal Companion book." How does that effect the samurai?
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The animal companion book COULD give you access to other mounts, GM permitting. There is also a wealth of new tricks available. If your GM uses the houserule that an animal has three trick slots per point of intelligence, then there is definitely a lot of good stuff there.
There are also animal archetypes that allow you to have a heavier horse or a fast charger. You could even have a spirit animal that you can eventually converse with.
For a class that has a full animal companion, the Animal Archive is a very nice thing to have.
GeneticDrift, I don't own the "Animal Companion book." How does that effect the samurai?
Four Archetypes and a feat that allows larger animals to fight in small spaces better. Though there is a slight mess in that the archetypes that are meant for the cavalier swap out share spell...
GeneticDrift, I don't own the "Animal Companion book." How does that effect the samurai?Four Archetypes and a feat that allows larger animals to fight in small spaces better. Though there is a slight mess in that the archetypes that are meant for the cavalier swap out share spell...
Is that feat available on the PRD? I've got a player who wants to take his horse everywhere with him and this may help.
Is that feat available on the PRD? I've got a player who wants to take his horse everywhere with him and this may help.GeneticDrift, I don't own the "Animal Companion book." How does that effect the samurai?Four Archetypes and a feat that allows larger animals to fight in small spaces better. Though there is a slight mess in that the archetypes that are meant for the cavalier swap out share spell...
Narrow Frame, and it is. It has a followup feat called Lithe Attack, but I have no idea how good either of the feats actually are in use because I haven't seen them(or mounts for that matter...) at the table.
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Is that feat available on the PRD? I've got a player who wants to take his horse everywhere with him and this may help.GeneticDrift, I don't own the "Animal Companion book." How does that effect the samurai?Four Archetypes and a feat that allows larger animals to fight in small spaces better. Though there is a slight mess in that the archetypes that are meant for the cavalier swap out share spell...
It's part of the Player Companion series, so it's not on the PRD.
"the good, the bad, and the samurai" would have been a much cleverer title. what a missed opportunity.
While definitely 3PP, there's a great supplement by Rite Publishing called Way of the Samurai that includes 4 samurai archetypes, and 2 prestige classes (in addition to samurai caste gunslinger, ranger and wizard), and custom rules for creating a samurai clan based on the GMG city stat block.
Whether you're looking for a noble samurai skill monkey, a 2-wpn Miyamoto Musashi build, a paladin-like samurai or an archery master - this supplement has all the historical options for samurai. And the onmyoji wizard uses origami as spell components, a very cool wizard archetype.
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Actually, I feel that samurai keeps the interesting part, and cavalier is almost boring in every other way. The samurai is more like a samurai, then the cavalier is like a real cavalier to me. But you can tell where my preferences lie...
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Actually, I feel that samurai keeps the interesting part, and cavalier is almost boring in every other way. The samurai is more like a samurai, then the cavalier is like a real cavalier to me. But you can tell where my preferences lie...
Ditto. Imo, Cavaliers are great if you want to reenact a battle involving charge lanes, but samurai's resolve and weapon expertise is far more interesting to me than specializing in charging and does allow for a wider variety of choices, though I do wish the list for weapon expertise were larger.
I actually really like the Rite publishing material too, gives a wider variety of choices and allows you to specialize and better create a particular kind of samurai.
lol.
Perhaps the new classes book will have expanded options for them, deuxhero?
Perhaps the new classes book will have expanded options for them, deuxhero?
Quick, add the word quality to your wish or the monkey's paw will give you 99 awful options!
Really though, its a long wait for some expanded options and there's no guarantee you'll get anything. Homebrew and 3rd party are good friends if available because samurai(and several other classes...) haven't gotten much support since the book they came out in.
@deuxhero - why should samurai be forced into katana use, and not have access to bow and spears? I can think of many historic examples of samurai wielding naginata and yumi bow. In fact the idea of katana as the weapon of the samurai did not occur until the start of the Edo period, which is the late feudal period (after 1600) and more a time of peace and control by the Shogun. The primary warring, adventure period of Japan is before this time (Sengoku and prior years). The concept of a mounted archer is really the best description of samurai throughout most of their history (from the Genpei War 1180 up to 1600), not as a katana wielding foot soldier. In fact under normal circumstances, the katana was a secondary weapon. If the samurai found himself out of arrows or off his horse on the battlefield, only then was katana ever unsheathed.
@ravingdork - until Paizo comes up with a new AP set in Tian Xia/Minkai (which won't be for a while, since JR is so recent), I doubt of they will release any new samurai/ninja/kensai/geisha support. If you're open to 3PP, Rite Publishing has 13 products as modules and supplements for the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror, with 2 more supplements scheduled for release this year. Kaidan has more ongoing development and product releases than any other publisher doing the oriental genre. While our products are designed to directly support Kaidan, they are generic enough to apply to any oriental setting - low or high fantasy.
I actually like the Samurai. Sure its got the general problems with martial classes, but its actually not all that bad in terms of damage output and depending on build is pretty decent at party friendly stuff like buffs and debuffs.
The Pregen for PFS is actually well built compared to the others IMHO. Unlike some of the others its actually competent at the role its assigned. I would rather have that character than yet another person trying to make use of that terribly built cleric or worse, ranger.
All the Samurai has in common with the Cavalier is the boring mount and the boring but practical challenge. The only really interesting mechanic the Cavalier had was Tactician and some of the orders, but while technically the samurai can take cavalier orders it's not exactly something that fluffs well for the most part.
Well, if you want a full list of changes its only the cavalier's charge, expert trainer, and tactician related abilities that are removed, and they are replaced by weapon expertise, mounted archery, resolve, and last stand related abilities and they get 3 more weapons(wakazashi, katana, and naginata.). The cavalier has a lot of charging mount related features and tactician, but samurai has much more going for it as a footman with resolve. The class features they have in common are their mount, challenge, banner, bonus feats, and orders(And of course class skills, bab, HD, and skill points per level).
Personally I'm not a big fan cavalier or samurai, but if I had to pick my poison I'd prefer the samurai because I prefer resolve and weapon expertise to the charge focus of the cavalier.
Charging has always been a serious damaging attack throughout the entire history of D&D/PF, but it's also always been corner-case ideal situations on open ground when a charge can be a useful attack. There are many situations where riding a mount, let alone any kind of charge attack cannot be done - in town, inside, in a dungeon, uneven terrain, thick forest, etc. The cavalier is built around the charge, but that's all he can really do well.
A samurai is useful on a mount, in a charge, mounted archery attacks, archery attacks while on the ground, wielding a naginata ahorse or afoot, and withstanding situations others cannot (resolve). The samurai is just plain better than a cavalier in diverse combat situations.
I can almost agree with deuxhero that a cavalier should have been a paladin archetype/alternate class. However, at the same time I think samurai should be a stand-alone class with it's current abilities, having nothing to do with cavalier.
Cavalier really should have been a Paladin archetype/alternate class (there is already a handful of archtypes that change alignment requirements).
I would imagine that an Alternate Class cavalier would have looked nothing like the Core Class cavalier. There is a bit of understanding that an alternate class needs to somewhat reflect its core class, and Challenge / Smite is the only correlation you could have made. Even so, Challenge and Smite have their fundamental differences despite having a similar mechanic.
Also, Cavalier was released alongside the Antipaladin in the Advanced Player's Guide. If the cavalier was the Paladin alternate class, I'd be willing to bet that the antipaladin would have never happened, and the antipaladin is a much stronger concept for an alternate class.
That said, more and more I'm with James Jacobs in that Paladin flavor is better suited for a Prestige Class.
Oh, I have no reasons to tie samurai to paladin, nor any real issue with alignment. While most samurai in Kaidan are lawful, for example, there is still no particular alignment requirements for samurai - nor should they be in a game outside Kaidan.