Hey guys first post here put long time player.
I have been playing a few pathfinder campaigns lately and have been using the mighty Godling class. I have always been a fan of angels so I took a half celestial class template as well. Most people seem to consider the half celestial template pretty bad and then mighty Godlings as good but not game broken from what I have read.
I have found that after some carefully selected abilities my Godling is near un-killable to most characters. Is this a common feeling most people have a bout the mighty Godling?
After looking through the other Godlings specifically the Eldritch Godling who seems to be by all accounts a Sorceror who can wear any armour without spell failure, doesn't have to take concentration checks etc, I can see why people have said this class is game breaking.
What are the general opinions on why/why not Godlings are over powered?
I feel the spell casting Godlings are far more powered than the mighty godling but even my effective level 20 Mighty Godling can beat the crap out of a great wyrm red dragon by himself even though it's CR is 22. (I am running with the standard gold worth of gear for my level)
Would love to hear any opinions.
Regards,
Crynn
Eldritch godling is so broken as to make the Tier 1 classes look underpowered, not only because of the reasons you list but because they can get a domain for a feat and not only gain both granted powers of the domain but add all 9 spells to their spells known. Sorcerers can only dream of getting 9 spells known with a feat (much less 9 spells and domain powers)!
Mighty godlings, that's a bit of a trickier question. In my experience a mighty godling isn't going to match a fighter for numbers on attacks or damage, though he can likely get close. However, he's going to make up for that with abilities and defenses. Honestly, a well built mighty godling might even be tier 2. So that brings up the question, what is over powered? I wouldn't say that even the most extreme mighty godling is more powerful than a wizard, but it is definitely higher tier than a fighter.
As to your character beating the crap out of a great wyrm red dragon, I suspect that is because you have experience with your character's tactics, but your DM hasn't put nearly the same amount of thought into the great wyrm or its treasure. Also, you mention being a half-celestial, that is going to schew the results significantly as well, half-celestial is bad if you're a caster who has to give up multiple levels for it, but if you're a martial class and still running around at the same level as non-templated characters then of course you're going to be over powered.
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I've played with godlings in my game and am playing an eldritch godling. I havent had problems with them, but to be fair, both were used to build a concept as opposed to being specifically optimized for maximum impact. My eldritch godling is a blaster, I chose the class because it seemed I could make a really good blaster type mage with it (and I can). But given blasting is among the least effective things (according to general consensus) you can do as a caster, and he still doesnt do as much damage as a raging barbarian, it isnt going to throw anyone's game for a loop. I just like it.
I also dont consider pure martial characters my yardstick for power. If a character appears more powerful then a fighter, monk or rogue, but either less equal to the power of a well build cleric, druid or wizard, I think thats balanced against the game as a whole. Using the perceived 'weakest' characters as a yardstick for 'balance' just seems odd to me.
Untill recently I had no idea there was a problem with the Godlings at all. I am still not sure what the issue is with the Mighty Godling, though again that might be because I dont consider the pure martial characters my measurement for 'power'. My group also tends to play most of our games at lower levels, where generally everything is more balanced because the diversion of power hasnt moved as far.
As shadowcatx mentioned, the additon of templates, and possibly a skewed things like base stats can often contribute to 'overpowered'. The game, and particularly, the CR system assumes a 15 point buy character with no templates, that isnt optimized. That is the base assumption of the game. If you optimize, you can take on a higher CR then normal, add templates, use a higher point buy or a forgiving rolling method? Again, you arent at the baseline. So a 20th level half celestial beating up a CR 22 monster doesnt really surprise me. A 20th level half Celestial Paladin could almost certainly do the same.
All that said, I am pretty sure the godling suffers from the same problems the summoner does. Its a really really flexible class. You get to choose just about everything it gets (you can even pick things like HD and BAB because of the 4 types available) from a wealth of interesting options. If you gave everything a 'point value' added them all up and compared that to the same of another 'top tier' class, it probably would be lower then a druid or wizard, and certainly not way above them.
But because you can pick and choose everything you get, if you optimize at all, you are going to be more powerful at the thing you optimized then anything but the most optimized version of other classes. Druids get trackless step, wild empathy and woodland stride. If a godling doesnt want such flavorful but not powerful options, they dont have to take them. They still represent a portion of what the druid gets though. The Godling is thus very easy to optimize (much like the summoner is). If the godling chooses every option to make them better at the thing they want to be good at (smashing things, being a god caster, healing, skills, whatever), they are going to be better then a character of another class that was not carefully constructed with the just the right options to be the best at that same thing.
The end result? If your group normally doenst put alot of 'energy' into optimization, very flexible classes like the godling are going to be more powerful then the rest unless the godling player takes pains NOT to optimize. If your group optimizes alot, they will probably fit in pretty easily.
Thank you so much for the replies, they are very much appreciated. I am in an odd position where I don't mind taking a class that isn't broken and making it as hard as I can purely from the perspective that I play the character as if I was them and my first priority would be not dying. I don't however want to take a busted class like a straight wizard and then just be unstoppable.
Shadowcat thanks for the reply. With the half celestial template i took a level 4 adjustment like in dnd 3.5 so i lost a lot in taking the template i didnt just do the pathfinder thing of here's my template with no negatives. As for the dragon fight, my DM didn't send me up against one I just looked at their stats and abilities and it couldn't beat purely because i can dimensional anchor the ground stopping it from teleporting i have an anti magic field I can use meaning it cant cast on me. I have saves that will pass anything it casts on me if I don't roll a 1 and my AC is so high it can only hit me on a 20. I do little dmg to it though and killing it is tedious. I tend to focus my character on a defensive style which I've made work.
I couldn't do what I do with this character using a fighter that's for sure. I was now looking into multi-classing into eldritch godling except after reading the rules I thought they were so overpowered that I couldn't justify it. I thought there would be some really experienced players here who would be able to tell me if and why godlings are overpowered.
From your responses it backs up what I thought which is that mighty godlings are okay but eldritch is over the top.
How are you casting anti-magic field and dimensional anchor?
And remember, if you cast anti-magic field, that's going to significantly tank your AC as all your magic items stop working.
ShadowcatX wrote: How are you casting anti-magic field and dimensional anchor?
And remember, if you cast anti-magic field, that's going to significantly tank your AC as all your magic items stop working.
Also your Supernatural abilties won't work either. This might drop your saves if you took such abilities.
After reading these posts I found myself confused. What is a godling? I mean in a game mechanics sense not the english meaning :P
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Mojorat wrote: After reading these posts I found myself confused. What is a godling? I mean in a game mechanics sense not the english meaning :P 3rd party set of 4 classes (with similar mechanics) by super genius games found here.
dimensional anchor I get as a chosen effect when using the spell hallow. The anti magical field is an expensive ability that can be put onto an item if you are willing to pay for it. As a fighter and a person who generally hates how powerful arcane caster are in these games it's something I always go for. I kit my guy out by buying items with odd abilities, I take a great load of time making friends who have at least decent casting skills or spending times in giant metropolis' so that such items aren't hard to come by. As for lowering my armour thats fine, generally i dont need to go as far as to use it generally silence will surfice. I cast as inquisitor spells using the archetype feature that comes in the book with the godlings in it. So that's where I get silence from. In normal d&d i just take things like presteige paladin and ordained champion to get essentially full BAB while getting a decent divine spell casting level. my last level 16 equivilent Half celestial in dnd was the same as this godling in that he was near full BAB and could cast lvl 6 cleric spells as well. The items you can purchase in regular dnd can be more powerful which let me beat mages easier than in pathfinder. For instance there is a feat in dnd that means when a caster casts in a spell you threaten you automatically get an attack of opportunity even when they cast defensively, and thus with a decent hit they fail the spell 90% of the time.
This is all because of my hatred of how shit martial classes are in d&d type games. I have generally been able to beat in duels in equivalent lvl caster class with my half caster martial builds. Probably a lot of irrelevant info there...
Essentially using the book with godlings in it i have managed to get some minor spell casting and by spending my money on +3 items with random abilities instead of generic +5 I can actually fight against these top tier classes.
If you want to let me know any other things i should know about godlings please do but I have found it creates something similar to what I had made in dnd which is a martial class with limited spell casting that takes on the big boys. Looking at the eldritch godling though i feel that if i took that class I'd break the game not by being clever just because the class seems f~$%ed. Thoughts?
Regards
Crynn
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I am currently playing a 5th level Skilled godling in thornkeep. I don't find him to be overpowered at all, but then, I took a few abilities just for the RP aspect, so I have legendary beauty for example, and I also don't need to eat or drink anymore - none of which lets me win any fights. I have slightly better skills than a rogue and definitely better saves than a rogue since all three of my saves are INT-based and INT is my highest ability score. But my BAB is the same as a rogue and my Sneak Attack is worse and I only just got Evasion at level 5.
With his defenses, particularly his saves, he is a bit harder to kill than your average rogue, but that's the only way he feels more powerful than a core class, and his combat limitations more than make up for it.
Does he overpower the game? Not even a tiny bit. But as I said, he is not the most powerful version of Godling and I didn't focus on being overpowered.
Crynn wrote: dimensional anchor I get as a chosen effect when using the spell hallow. Actually, I'm pretty sure you have to still get the dimensional anchor effect cast into the hallow. Hallow doesn't by itself replicate the dimensional anchor spell.
Quote: The anti magical field is an expensive ability that can be put onto an item if you are willing to pay for it. This is probably one of the biggest things that makes your character over powered. Custom magic items should be monitored very carefully, and this effect is something I would not allow.
Quote: I cast as inquisitor spells using the archetype feature that comes in the book with the godlings in it. There is no archetype in the godling book for the godling classes. There are some archetypes for standard classes but none for the godlings. In fact the only archetypes for the godling classes are from Rite Publishing's Renegade Class Archetypes, but none of them gain spell casting. You could be using SGG generic archetypes, but I don't believe they grant full inquisitor spell casting. It sounds like you took a generic archetype away from your godling and added the inquisitor's magister package, which isn't actually allowed (nor should it be as some of the options are radically unbalanced when you start doing that).
Note: When I say I wouldn't do them I'm speaking of personal preference, if anti-magic items and swapping out your domains for full inquisitor spellcasting works for your group, more power to you, just know they're not RAW and you can't assume that your class is over powered because you're so far away from RAW. If it is fun for you and your group though, more power to you.
Quote: Looking at the eldritch godling though i feel that if i took that class I'd break the game not by being clever just because the class seems f*+*ed. Thoughts? Oh yes, I hate eldritch godling with a passion. One other note about the horrible horrible class is that it breaks the crap out of expected spell DCs by taking a constitution (or strength, either one is good for the build) as its casting stat, then using polymorph effects to get size bonuses to their casting stat to crank up the DCs. It is a disgusting class. (I actually hate it more than I hate summoner, which is really saying something.)
This discussion of the mix and match abilities of the Godling explains why it is a good idea the new class guide will not have a class builder like the ARG.
As Kolokotroni says:
"But because you can pick and choose everything you get, if you optimize at all, you are going to be more powerful at the thing you optimized then anything but the most optimized version of other classes. Druids get trackless step, wild empathy and woodland stride. If a godling doesnt want such flavorful but not powerful options, they dont have to take them. They still represent a portion of what the druid gets though."
Nobody will ever play a class with stuff like Slow Fall again. Now, Slow Fall is a crappy ability and a level 1 SLA of Feather Fall is far superior, but it is interesting and has flavour. You will just get home brew class with as wide a range of spells as possible. That would be dull.
Captain K. wrote: Nobody will ever play a class with stuff like Slow Fall again. Now, Slow Fall is a crappy ability and a level 1 SLA of Feather Fall is far superior, but it is interesting and has flavour. You will just get home brew class with as wide a range of spells as possible. That would be dull.
The problem with that is abilities can be flavorful and useful, they don't have to be only one or the other.
ShadowcatX wrote: Captain K. wrote: Nobody will ever play a class with stuff like Slow Fall again. Now, Slow Fall is a crappy ability and a level 1 SLA of Feather Fall is far superior, but it is interesting and has flavour. You will just get home brew class with as wide a range of spells as possible. That would be dull.
The problem with that is abilities can be flavorful and useful, they don't have to be only one or the other. There is a difference however between useful and powerful. Slow fall can be useful, particularly when emphasising the mobility of the monk or for that time you get bullrushed off the cliff. It does not however help the monk punch people better.
Kolokotroni wrote: ShadowcatX wrote: Captain K. wrote: Nobody will ever play a class with stuff like Slow Fall again. Now, Slow Fall is a crappy ability and a level 1 SLA of Feather Fall is far superior, but it is interesting and has flavour. You will just get home brew class with as wide a range of spells as possible. That would be dull.
The problem with that is abilities can be flavorful and useful, they don't have to be only one or the other. There is a difference however between useful and powerful. Slow fall can be useful, particularly when emphasising the mobility of the monk or for that time you get bullrushed off the cliff. It does not however help the monk punch people better. Maybe if it did, monks wouldn't be as under powered as they are. . . Anyways, I think we're getting significantly off topic and I still want to hear if my assumption about the generic archetype packages are correct.
ShadowcatX wrote: Kolokotroni wrote: ShadowcatX wrote: Captain K. wrote: Nobody will ever play a class with stuff like Slow Fall again. Now, Slow Fall is a crappy ability and a level 1 SLA of Feather Fall is far superior, but it is interesting and has flavour. You will just get home brew class with as wide a range of spells as possible. That would be dull.
The problem with that is abilities can be flavorful and useful, they don't have to be only one or the other. There is a difference however between useful and powerful. Slow fall can be useful, particularly when emphasising the mobility of the monk or for that time you get bullrushed off the cliff. It does not however help the monk punch people better. Maybe if it did, monks wouldn't be as under powered as they are. . . Anyways, I think we're getting significantly off topic and I still want to hear if my assumption about the generic archetype packages are correct. I am pretty sure you are correct about your assumptions, there isnt an archetype either Genius Style or Paizo style that would give the Godling inquisitor spell casting. Couple that with rather rediculous custom magic items, I think we have the answer as to why this character was able to lay the beat down on a CR 22 dragon.
The Mighty godling does have package or archetype, it's called 'like my father' you lose domain features and scion talents amongst other things.
As for Anti magic fields being over powered I disagree. There is a 4th level wizard spell called something sorrow that make you take a save and even if you pass it you are stunned for a round and hurt yourself. A wizard could just endlessly chain this so that no matter what any fighter class would just die with a 0% chance of doing anything until the caster ran out of the spell or decided to stop chaining. I consider an antimagic field a necessity for any high level fighter who wants to compete with the big boys. Even so anti magic fields placed into items are not 'by DMs discretion' and while a DM can always so 'you can't have this' the rules for creating items are there and quite simple and easily accessable to moderaely high level characters. On another note, a simple use of the silence spell would suffice for most of the encounters I face as I generally always act first cast silence and fly right above a mage so that he can't cast and cannot 5 foot step out of my attack range. I feel that with the power of arcane spell casters simply using equipment to the best of martial classes ability isn't really an issue.
Dimensional anchor is one ability you can choose to have work when you cast hallow as well.
Search the pazio site for that godling archetype i found it pretty easily, I'm not sure what i have messed up if this is the case. For what it's worth, in 3.5 dnd beating down a dragon solo isn't hard just by again buying the correct magic items from the item compendium without creating custom items, though it required some clever prestiege classing, i thought it was odd i could do it in pathfinder with jsut straight godling though.
With these custom items, looking over the rules, I can simply make them with some pretty easily obtained item creation feats if I was a wizard, they really aren't anything special like artifacts or anything. I think limiting a martial classes access to items when he/she sources an appropriate item crafted and pays for it is a little weak to be honest. A martial classes power mainly comes from his items in the same way a wizards comes from his spell book. It would be like telling a wizard he can't choose a spell just because. Anyway I really appreciate this feedback guys you have been super helpful are providing great insight into these classes! As I thought the eldritch godling is broken so I don't think I'll multi class into.
To give you an example of how easy it is to beat a dragon when you are just a bit creative I'll show you how I reached my armour class that a dragon cannot touch.
base = 10
full plate +5 = 14
Heavy shield +5 = 7
Legendary Beauty = Charisma bonus to AC = my charisma started at 18+4 for half celestial +4 from 16 levels of putting each point it and a helm with +8 charisma total 34 for a total of +12 =12
Divine portfolio - godling ability chose nature mystery and natures whisper which is again charisma to AC as apposed to dex to AC = 12
dodge = 2 (up crane style feats)
Amulet of +5 natural armour = 5
ring of +5 felectio armour = 5
total = 67 without spells
with crane style I ignore the first strike in melee combat that strikes me each round so with all this I am practically immune to and physical attack a dragon can muster.
Saves are all through the roof using force of personality and legendary beauty again both giving char bonus to saves is a total of +24 to all saves.
Now I made this char with only one rule, I hate arcane casters so I would play a martial class but after that I'd make him as hard as nails and generally geared towards killing spell casters. So I realize I've optimized this guy a lot however I know that an optimized wizard is as powerful if not more so and as my group plays with such a character I'm just happy to be able to roll with the big boys.
I am now reaching effective level 20 and want to chance class once i reach my mighty godling 20 which for me will be level 24, i looked at eldritch godling and decided i shouldn't play that class with the mindset I have now of playing to be powerful because it can be abused more than any class I know, which some of you seem to agree on.
But now that we are on the topic of my character I'd love you guys to pull it apart to make sure I haven't made him incorrectly. I play hard but I don't want to cheat so if I have to adjust him I shall. If there's any other questions you have about my character lease ask that way you can call me out on any f&*! ups I may have made.
Lastly again, thanks for all the help, it is much appreciated.
Regards,
Crynn
As a side note, i build my characters to survive not to deal damage. This character just uses a magically scimitar with a strength bonus to get damage. He has improved critical but beyond that wont hit for much more than 15dmg without a critical but boy can he take a beating and with swift action teleports from godling abilities, a wicked high initiative he is very hard to kill and mainly focused around dueling other powerful NPCs. The group essentially uses him to take on powerful NPCs while the others deal with all the armies or minions. Many of his abilities have limited uses so he burns them up quite quickly making him less effective in prolonged fights.
Cane style requires one had free.
You are using sword and board.
Most abilities that replace a stat for dex on AC, such as the oracle ability still limit you to the max dex penalty.
The oracle nature ability doesn't limit your dex penalty as it states you no longer use dex you use charisma and armour only provides a dex inhibitor. It does however say conditions that cause you to 'lose' your dex modifier such as flat footed make you lose your charisma modifier however conditions are specifically defined in the pathfinder books and do not include armour penalties. Furthermore armour doesn't cause you to 'lose' you dex modifier it simple limits it which is a different thing.
I do use sword and board, however I get around that by taking 'battlelord 2' from the godling abilities and using the quick draw feat. This allows me to draw my weapon as a free action make a full round attack and sheath the weapon again leaving me my hand free for when my opponent attacks in his turn so I can use crane style, and furthermore, when I parry i get to punch the attacker as well! It's kind of that whole japanese things of quickly drawing your sword attacking and sheathing it again, kinda cool, for that reason i made my weapon a scimitar so it was slightly curved and fits that style of fighting more than a bastard sword.
So as you can see, if you take some time to use the godling's abilities he can be quite a dangerous fighter! I just wish all fighting classes could were as competent as this class.
Regards,
Crynn
Crynn wrote: The Mighty godling does have package or archetype, it's called 'like my father' you lose domain features and scion talents amongst other things. Which, like I said, is from the SGG to X archetypes, not the godling books. There is not a SGG archetype that allows you to gain Inquisitor spellcasting though. What you did was take the Inquisitor's package archetype which isn't allowable. There is an archetype that would allow you to gain 6th level divine casting, but not the inquisitor's spell list. (The inquisitor's spell list is much better than the archetype's spell list.)
Quote: As for Anti magic fields being over powered I disagree. This is the single reason you have a prayer of fighting a dragon. This also entirely shuts down half a dozen classes. I don't see how you can say it isn't over powered.
Regardless of rather or not it is over powered, it is a custom magic item, one you won't find in any Pathfinder book. You won't even find anything close to it.
Quote: Even so anti magic fields placed into items are not 'by DMs discretion' and while a DM can always so 'you can't have this' the rules for creating items are there and quite simple and easily accessable to moderaely high level characters. Custom magic items are ALWAYS "by DM's discretion".
Quote: Search the pazio site for that godling archetype i found it pretty easily, I'm not sure what i have messed up if this is the case. If you look in the super genius guide to X archetypes (SGG to arcane archetypes for example) you'll find a list of archetype packages, which are things a class has to give up to take one of the available archetypes in the book. The Mighty Godling archetype is, as you pointed out, Like My Father. Giving that up allows you to take an archetype. But you didn't take an archetype, instead you took one of the archetype packages from the inquisitor.
The archetype packages are meant to be more powerful than the archetypes themselves are because generally players find ways to make options more powerful than they're written, so taking an archetype package (rather than an archetype) is a violation of the rules.
Quote: For what it's worth, in 3.5 dnd beating down a dragon solo isn't hard just by again buying the correct magic items from the item compendium without creating custom items, though it required some clever prestiege classing, i thought it was odd i could do it in pathfinder with jsut straight godling though. The magic item compendium is a munchkin's dream, so yeah, of course it allows stupidly powerful things. I'm glad many of those didn't make it to Pathfinder.
Also, you could easily defeat a dragon (or well, anything) with just the right prestige class. *cough* Planar Shepherd *cough* This isn't 3.5 though.
Quote: With these custom items, looking over the rules, I can simply make them with some pretty easily obtained item creation feats if I was a wizard, they really aren't anything special like artifacts or anything. I think limiting a martial classes access to items when he/she sources an appropriate item crafted and pays for it is a little weak to be honest. Again, you can only make (or purchase, or whatever) custom magic items at the GM's discretion. The GM allowing anti-magic field on an item was a big mistake.
Quote: Legendary Beauty = Charisma bonus to AC = my charisma started at 18+4 for half celestial +4 from 16 levels of putting each point it and a helm with +8 charisma total 34 for a total of +12 =12 First, putting 4 points into it over 16 levels gives you +2, not +4. Second, +8 to a stat isn't allowable in Pathfinder ruleset. Third, + to mental attributes are from headbands, not helms. Ergo, this should be +9, not +12. This also drops your AC gained from sidestep secret by 3 points. That's a 6 point drop in AC.
Quote: I get around that by taking 'battlelord 2' from the godling abilities And now you've exceeded your class alotment of traits by 3, since legendary beauty 4 takes up all your traits all the way through level 16, so I'm assuming you're spending feats to gain trait points?
Quote: This allows me to draw my weapon as a free action make a full round attack and sheath the weapon again leaving me my hand free for when my opponent attacks in his turn so I can use crane style, and furthermore, when I parry i get to punch the attacker as well! It's kind of that whole japanese things of quickly drawing your sword attacking and sheathing it again, kinda cool, for that reason i made my weapon a scimitar so it was slightly curved and fits that style of fighting more than a bastard sword. Normally this kind of cheese I'd squash as well, but since you're paying for the ability and since your description kind of sounds neat I wouldn't mind it so much.
Crynn wrote: The Mighty godling does have package or archetype, it's called 'like my father' you lose domain features and scion talents amongst other things. Yes it has a package archetype. However you cannot trade it for the magister archetype. You can trade it for one of the archetypes in the Archetype line. None of those give inquisitor casting. In fact the genius guide to archer archetype specifically states that even if you decide to allow inter class archetype swaping, allowing spell casting from classes with lower BAB isnt something you should allow:
Quote: Don’t allow any class to gain spellcasting ability from an archetype package from a class with a lower base attack bonus. Quote:
As for Anti magic fields being over powered I disagree. There is a 4th level wizard spell called something sorrow that make you take a save and even if you pass it you are stunned for a round and hurt yourself. A wizard could just endlessly chain this so that no matter what any fighter class would just die with a 0% chance of doing anything until the caster ran out of the spell or decided to stop chaining. I consider an antimagic field a necessity for any high level fighter who wants to compete with the big boys. Even so anti magic fields placed into items are not 'by DMs discretion' and while a DM can always so 'you can't have this' the rules for creating items are there and quite simple and easily accessable to moderaely high level characters. On another note, a simple use of the silence spell would suffice for most of the encounters I face as I generally always act first cast silence and fly right above a mage so that he can't cast and cannot 5 foot step out of my attack range. I feel that with the power of arcane spell casters simply using equipment to the best of martial classes ability isn't really an issue.
Dimensional anchor is one ability you can choose to have work when you cast hallow as well.
Search the pazio site for that godling archetype i found it pretty easily, I'm not sure what i have messed up if this is the case. For what it's worth, in 3.5 dnd beating down a dragon solo isn't hard just by again buying the correct magic items from the item compendium without creating custom items, though it required some clever prestiege classing, i thought it was odd i could do it in pathfinder with jsut straight godling though.
I am not sure what you are refering to when you say 'search the paizo site'. Do you mean d20 pfsrd? That site doesnt explain genius stlye archetypes well as they dont fit neatly in the structhre of the site. The line I quoted above is from the actual pdf product produced by super genius games. What your doing (switching archetypes between classes) is not allowed by the rules as they are laid out, and there is even a bit of advice warning against doing what you are doing even if the dm decides to allow it.
Item compendium in 3.5 is just the same as spell compendium. If casters can't take spell compendium spells like celerity then item book compendium gear isn't necessary. looking at the pazio website it actually says nothing about creating magic items being only at DM's discretion it just lists of the formulas required. Obviously everything is at the DMs discretion but this makes no special note of it http://paizo.com/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html
Also considering spell casters haves spells that you just cannot in anyway stop that will just chain stun you I don't see how any martial class has a chance without using cleverly crafted magic items. If a DM allowed a wizard to take whatever spell he wanted then wouldn't let me have that item considering that all item creation is is feats + the ability to cast certain spells I'd think that's a bit harsh, each to their own I guess.
As for my charisma i totally messed that up in it's description. Trying to add up all these bonuses I'm bound to make mistakes. Though looking at it I thought you got one stat point per 4 levels? so that would be 4 and the numbers add up correctly. I just realized I'm also human and put the 2 stat points from that into charisma as well so I'd actually have 1 more bonus than I said. In pathfinder do you perhaps only get one stat point per 8 levels? We have all just converted over from 3.5 as a group seeing we like to play hard and heard pathfinder was more balanced.
As for the Archetype thing, clearly we missed something about this. So there are archetypes and archetype packages? confusion was always going to happen there. so how exactly does it work and what is the archetype that I could have taken to gain level 6 spell equivalent? That sucks I've played that so wrong. Not a huge deal losing the spells but sucks a bit, essentially just means I cant silence which is the primary spell I use, damn. Thanks a bunch for picking this up, if you could help me correct it that would be even better! As for the divine traits that run out I used the class feature for preferred class, if you are human you gain a new trait point every two levels. I also took a feat that lets you count as being two higher in level when getting preferred class bonuses. In total it's given me +14 trait point. 8 from preferred level and 3+3 from the feat I've taken multiple times.
I don't feel my bushido fighting style is cheese (is it bushido, or have I just made an idiot of myself) I feel that if you are allowed to pick whatever spells you like a wizard simply using the rules to fight better aint busted, i mean with no thought at all a wizard is so powerful yet to work this godling into a similar ball park if its even there I've had to cleverly pick abilities take random crappy feats that chain with others, went through about 10 levels taking feats that barely helped me at all but that's all by the by and I guess each player or DM has different views so fair enough.
What's the max +Stat item you can have in pathfinder and where do I find the rules for that I'm sorry. again coming across from 3.5 we have clearly made some incorrect assumptions. as for which slot it goes on that can be easily changed. losing 3 charisma if that's all doesn't really change a lot, I mean that armour class is so high that knocking 3 doesn't matter considering I normally fight defensively which with crane style adds another 2 armour.
As I'm writing this I'm still trying to decipher exactly how this archetype things works? Can you change archetypes from those of other classes? If not, what is the point of having only 1 archetype if there is nothing to swap it with? Can you provide me a link of archetypes I can get when trading the 'like my father' mighty godling archetype?
Guys once again your insight has been amazing, thank you for all this effort, this information is great as I can take it back to my DM and make sure we have all built our tweaked characters correctly. I really appreciate all the time you've spent pulling apart my char.
Regards,
Crynn
Kolokotroni thanks for that, can you tell me what I can swap my mighty godling archetype for, the DM seems to have misinterpreted the archetype rules. We have transferred from 3.5 very quickly so there are things we've missed along the way.
Hey guys as far as I can tell the site is telling me that both 'like my father' and 'magister' are archetype packages. Is it incorrect? Also I can't see where it says I can't swap them from other class packages. I'm sure it does I've just missed it.
Here's the link
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/adept- godling/archetypes/super-genius-games---adept-godling-archetypes/spellhamme r?tmpl=%2Fsystem%2Fapp%2Ftemplates%2Fprint%2F
Let me know what I'm miss-reading.
thanks.
Also can't find anything about maximum stat bonus only being +5 as that isn't an equivalent to a +5 item. Can you inform me where it says this? For instance just at a glance the 'belt of physical perfection' can give +6 to a stat.
I found it but only a brief description, it's called 'wise' can anyone tell me what spells it has access to or how they are chosen?
Crynn wrote: Also can't find anything about maximum stat bonus only being +5 as that isn't an equivalent to a +5 item. Can you inform me where it says this? For instance just at a glance the 'belt of physical perfection' can give +6 to a stat. The highest you can get an inherent bonus is +5. The highest you can get an enhancement bonus is +6.
I'm not familiar enough with open content laws to know rather or not I can give you the whole spell list. Suffice it to say it is significantly worse than the inquisitor's spell list. It is generally inclined as an old wise woman type spell list, not a warrior type spell list.
Crynn wrote: Item compendium in 3.5 is just the same as spell compendium. If casters can't take spell compendium spells like celerity then item book compendium gear isn't necessary. I didn't like the spell compendium either. (In general I greatly dislike books of spells / feats, and moderately dislike books of items, unless they're cool items we didn't have before, like SGG Loot 4 Less.
Quote: As for my charisma i totally messed that up in it's description. Trying to add up all these bonuses I'm bound to make mistakes. Though looking at it I thought you got one stat point per 4 levels? so that would be 4 and the numbers add up correctly. ]I just realized I'm also human and put the 2 stat points from that into charisma as well so I'd actually have 1 more bonus than I said. In pathfinder do you perhaps only get one stat point per 8 levels? We have all just converted over from 3.5 as a group seeing we like to play hard and heard pathfinder was more balanced. That was my mistake. I thought you meant +4 modifier, not +4 to the attribute. Ignore that part of the comment. (Though the inability to get a +8 modifier on an item still stands.
Quote: As for the Archetype thing, clearly we missed something about this. So there are archetypes and archetype packages? confusion was always going to happen there. so how exactly does it work and what is the archetype that I could have taken to gain level 6 spell equivalent? That sucks I've played that so wrong. Not a huge deal losing the spells but sucks a bit, essentially just means I cant silence which is the primary spell I use, damn. Thanks a bunch for picking this up, if you could help me correct it that would be even better! As for the divine traits that run out I used the class feature for preferred class, if you are human you gain a new trait point every two levels. I also took a feat that lets you count as being two higher in level when getting preferred class bonuses. In total it's given me +14 trait point. 8 from preferred level and 3+3 from the feat I've taken multiple times. If you read it in the books, it is very clear how it works. Each class has archetype packages. Giving up an archetype package allows you to choose an archetype from the book.
Quote: I don't feel my bushido fighting style is cheese (is it bushido, or have I just made an idiot of myself) I feel that if you are allowed to pick whatever spells you like a wizard simply using the rules to fight better aint busted, i mean with no thought at all a wizard is so powerful yet to work this godling into a similar ball park if its even there I've had to cleverly pick abilities take random crappy feats that chain with others, went through about 10 levels taking feats that barely helped me at all but that's all by the by and I guess each player or DM has different views so fair enough. When a feat is designed to require you to use open handed fighting style, and you circumvent this by simply sheathing your weapon every turn because you can, then yes it is cheesy. It doesn't matter how powerful you think casters are.
Quote: What's the max +Stat item you can have in pathfinder and where do I find the rules for that I'm sorry. again coming across from 3.5 we have clearly made some incorrect assumptions. as for which slot it goes on that can be easily changed. losing 3 charisma if that's all doesn't really change a lot, I mean that armour class is so high that knocking 3 doesn't matter considering I normally fight defensively which with crane style adds another 2 armour. Look in the pathfinder core rule book. Items go up to +6.
Quote: As I'm writing this I'm still trying to decipher exactly how this archetype things works? Can you change archetypes from those of other classes? If not, what is the point of having only 1 archetype if there is nothing to swap it with? Can you provide me a link of archetypes I can get when trading the 'like my father' mighty godling archetype? The d20pfsrd is really screwed up with regards to how the archetypes are done. If I were a better member and knew more of what I was doing over there I'd try and fix it, but unfortunately I don't. As is, despite the fact that the information is available over there it is confusing enough you pretty much have to use the book.
Quote: Guys once again your insight has been amazing, thank you for all this effort, this information is great as I can take it back to my DM and make sure we have all built our tweaked characters correctly. I really appreciate all the time you've spent pulling apart my char.
Regards,
Crynn
No problem. I'm a big fan of SGG so it a problem at all. But also, I wouldn't be too concerned with correcting it, it sounds like it has been working for y'all, and you're having fun, and really that's all that matters.
Crynn wrote: Hey guys as far as I can tell the site is telling me that both 'like my father' and 'magister' are archetype packages. Is it incorrect? Also I can't see where it says I can't swap them from other class packages. I'm sure it does I've just missed it.
Here's the link
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/adept- godling/archetypes/super-genius-games---adept-godling-archetypes/spellhamme r?tmpl=%2Fsystem%2Fapp%2Ftemplates%2Fprint%2F
Let me know what I'm miss-reading.
thanks.
I dont have access to the site, and I dont generally use it. What I do have is access to the pdfs the site is drawing from. These products present a set of new 'archetypes' (lets call them Genius Archetypes, because the concept was introduced before the APG when paizo clamed the term archetype for their alternate class features. Each class in the game, monk, ranger, inquisitor, fighter etc, has one or more 'archetype packages'. These are sets of abilities the class gets normally but are not considered vital to the class functioning as its meant to. For instance, the inquisitor has for instance the execturioner (Judgements) and magister (spells) packages. The inquisitor can lose access to either of these sets of abilities to gain one of the archetypes presented in the product, not an archetype package from another class.
So for instance, the Inquisitor can give up his magister package (ability to cast spells) for the Blacksnake Genius Archetype, in order to gain special abilities with whips. Or the Yuxia genius archetype, for a sort of kung fu movie feel.
There are 4 archetype products, with a handful of other genius archetypes spread throughout their products. But primarily the archetypes can be found in those 4 core pdfs. If you are still having trouble, feel free to post in the product discussion thread for one of them, as the Geniuses are usually very good about responding to questions about their products.
So I have now been playing my godling for about 6 months in a campaign once a week and I love him, the selection of abilities and character customization is truely fantastic and allows me to make the character play how I want and achieve the things I want. I avoided the Eldritch godling as he is obviously completely overpowered and stayed away from the mighty godling as he was also described in another forum as perhaps the best pure fighting class though supposedly not as powerfull as full casters and instead went adept godling. My character is still mainly a melee combatent having no direct damaging spells other than enervate which I have literally cast once but I have an issue. He is completely over the top/over powered.
The character customization is not the problem, the issue is how many divine ranks the game gives you to dip into all these different abilities, taking a sorcerer blood line here and an oracle ability there, it's just rediculous. I love the concept Super Genius Games have come up with but there in house play testers are clearly inept (similar to what I have found with Warhammer but that's another story) I made this character and planned him up until level 20 thinking he will be very good and a lot of fun to play, but gosh I didn't realize how silly he was when compared with the other party members. I am at the point now where I am just going to re-roll a new character due to the fact that while I deal only average dmg a round about 30-60 against decent opponents I am completely indestructable.
I am talking an AC over 70, touch AC over 50. minimum save being 42 and at worst 28 if the save is against a trap or non intelligent creature, can parry an attack each turn, can use an antimagic field when necessary, then reliably cast through his anti magic field when he needs and against big opponents use smite rival to deal considerable damage each round. I am really dissapointed that my option are either to limit the class on paper or re-roll to something else. I hate using house rules and I am at that point of just wondering why it is that hard for people to write rules. This character has soloed two different creatures of cr 24 and 25 solo and he isnt a full spell caster, he has beaten them to death with a sword. Ridiculous.
Regards,
Crynn
Well, you shouldn't complain about the archetype when you're not running your character consistently with the pathfinder rule set. You're not getting a real comparison when you slap on an antimagic aura that doesn't affect your gear :p Given some of the other stuff you mentioned before, such as the maximum +6 enhancement bonus to a stat, or the max +5 inherent bonus, I expect there are probably some additional errors or oversights that got you where you are now.
Heck, an accurate pricing for an antimagic aura that you can cast through? Way, way, way beyond the wealth of the average 20th level character.
If your group enjoys that sort of play, that's fine. But don't malign a 3rd party class if you feel it's too powerful when coupled with all this extra stuff.
Here's a thought for you. Try replacing your gear with only magic items that already exist in the books. No custom ones. Then play that and see where you're at.
I'd love to see your character sheet, but sadly the 3rd party limitations probably prevents you from sharing it openly :(
Magic dealer, you are completely incorrect with what you are saying. I never mentioned anything about the anitmagic field not effecting my items, it does, of course it does but if I fight a caster who cares? I will overpower him in melee with even mundane items. As for spending money on it, it's a level 6 spell I can cast. I think you have a slight misunderstanding of the godling rules, they can cast through their own anti magic fields. I can cast at whatever caster level I like so I cast my antimagic field at caster lvl 11 (its minimum) then cast all my other spells at caster level 17 (my maximum) which gives me about an 80% success rate of casting through my own antimagic field. So i just go up to a caster with my anti magic field on then just cast feeble mind on him, he has no SR because the AM field will cancel any item that gives it to him and his saves are shocking against because no magic items to assist and that is pretty much the end of that fight, presuming i dont just want to melee him to bits or grapple him.
Also what is this nonsense about not running consistently with pathfinder, my character is completely pathfinder in his classes and feats so I don't know where you got that idea from. also what is this 3rd party thing that prevents me from sharing my character sheet though?
Weather you believe me or not doesn't really matter but the godling classes are completely overpowered. The reason most people don't notice is because they are building very theme based character which don't access the better abilities available to a godling which is cool I have no problem with that, but for most it's because most players have no idea how to build a character. As a human i get an extra 1 divine rank per two levels, did you know one divine rank gets you the ability to add half your level to initiative chacks as well as you can never be surprised and always act in surprise rounds? another 1 point gets you trip and great trip plus uses your lvl in place of you BAB to trip maneuvers so it doesn't even matter that I dont have full BAB. Before you criticize what it is you feel I have done with my character, go actually test what I'm talking about and see for yourself what a godling is capable of. I assure you there are no mistakes on my character sheet, I constantly go through it with my entire group, we all look at each others sheets to make sure we are doing things correctly, as we all have quite powerful characters. We actually all came across to pathfinder from 3.5 to lower the cap on how powerful characters could be.
The last we heard, you were running archetypes incorrectly, gaining inherent bonuses and stat enhancement bonuses from items that are greater than what pathfinder allows, ignoring dm's ability to restrict magic items (anti-magic on armor?), and so on and so on. You never mentioned what, if anything, you changed.
Crynn wrote: dimensional anchor I get as a chosen effect when using the spell hallow. The anti magical field is an expensive ability that can be put onto an item if you are willing to pay for it. I got my impression that your items were still working from this quote, though I see now that I was probably mistaken on that front.
I am still trying to figure out how you're casting anti-magic field. In previous comments, it seemed to be implied that you'd had it added to an item as a special ability you could activate. From what you're saying now, being able to modify the caster level, it sounds like you picked up the actual ability to cast it somewhere. If it is from an item, then yes, having it isn't normal pathfinder. The item creation rules specifically say that the dm should determine the final price of any custom items, adjusting it based on how powerful it is. If they think it's too powerful, they're completely within the rules to set the price impossibly high.
For the character sheet, some content is ogl, some is not. You might not be able to post your character sheet openly without violating content laws. Depends on what you've slapped into it, and the policy those sources has.
I am curious as to what level you're at. You mentioned that you planned the character up to level 20. Have you actually hit level cap yet?
Here are some interesting notes that your dm might take advantage of to challenge you if you wish to keep playing. In the advanced class guide the arcanist, and an archetype available to wizards, allows casters to counterspell as an immediate action. That would give them an excellent chance to block your anti-magic field before it comes into effect if you're casting it at cl 11.
A wizard with a standard overland flight buff should be able to move out of your antimagic field and take position overhead, assuming they bother being adjacent to the ground. A simple windwall, and your ranged attacks wouldn't affect them either. The wizard would be free to use various shenanigans to deal with you, or simply wait for you to dismiss the spell. Sometimes things that feel overpowered only feel that way due to misunderstandings of the rules, or constantly poor tactics from the enemies. For example,
Crynn wrote:
To give you an example of how easy it is to beat a dragon when you are just a bit creative I'll show you how I reached my armour class that a dragon cannot touch.
base = 10
full plate +5 = 14
Heavy shield +5 = 7
Legendary Beauty = Charisma bonus to AC = my charisma started at 18+4 for half celestial +4 from 16 levels of putting each point it and a helm with +8 charisma total 34 for a total of +12 =12
Divine portfolio - godling ability chose nature mystery and natures whisper which is again charisma to AC as apposed to dex to AC = 12
dodge = 2 (up crane style feats)
Amulet of +5 natural armour = 5
ring of +5 felectio armour = 5
total = 67 without spells
with crane style I ignore the first strike in melee combat that strikes me each round so with all this I am practically immune to and physical attack a dragon can muster.
Saves are all through the roof using force of personality and legendary beauty again both giving char bonus to saves is a total of +24 to all saves.
Legendary beauty, for example, would be simply negated by an opponent closing their eyes, or dropping a darkness effect. It's also supernatural, so it drops in an anti-magic field. Nature's whispers from the divine portfolio is still limited by your max dex bonus from armor. I'm not sure what a ring of +5 felectio armour is, or where it's from. But mithril fullplate +5 has a max dex bonus of +3.
So base 10, +14 fullplate, +7 from +5 shield, +3 from whispers, possible +11 from divine *or 50% miss chance, unless other senses in use* amulet of natural armor +5, and maybe ring, maybe not since it may not stack with armor.
So a possible minimum of 44 ac, or a maximum of 55 otherwise.
Against a red dragon with antimagic aura up? base 10 + 9 from fullplate, +2 from shield, +2 from whispers for a total of 23 ac.
A cr 22 red dragon has blindsense, so it bypasses legendary beauty and takes the 50% miss chance. It has six attacks a round. with a 50% miss chance, assume it only hits with three a round. Since its lowest bonus is twelve points over your applicable ac, that's reasonable. it's dealong, minimum, 40 points of damage a round against you. Ignoring the first attack each round from crane style drops it down to 20 points a around. Or the dragon could use tail sweep and deal a minimum of 13 damage and not worry about crane style or miss chance.
If you're NOT using the antimagic field, your ac is anywhere from 44 to 55. Then the dragon might drop ama itself, or time stop and buff up, or use any of the other caster things that you hate.
You can push each of the ac's up a notch or two if you're still using that homebrew +8 to cha helm.
The dragon can also still fly around, out of reach, or many other tactics.
This is an example of why specifics are good. You mentioned that a cr 22 red dragon wouldn't be able to affect you, but on analysis, we see there were some errors in that assumption.
It's not a matter of believing you or not. I don't really have that much interest in 3rd party content. I just think that if you're going to be posting a negative review and affecting their income, you should supply as much detail and fact as possible to better support your allegations. You bothered to post on the forums, so while you may not care if "I" believe you, you cared enough to bring it up.
Okay you really aren't getting this. Let me spell it out for you. I am an adept godling, they can cast spells as a class feature. so I picked anti magic field as a spell. Please, actually read what I am saying when i said it's not an item effect. When I came across to paizo I was new to archetypes so that's where I made the mistake there but this character has NO ARCHETYPES. the items in question here are all paizo. I have a luck bonus ring +4 which is the other item your missing. now even a dragon closing it's eyes with my high AC would struggle to hit me when I ignore a hit but that is by the by even without legendary beauty, some fighter has to hit me with 57AC when I parry an attack and he has gained a 50% miss chance? are you serious, while i just endlessly trip him, you are joking me right. I haven't even begun to go into the bs that this character is capable of doing. And please stop going about you writings as if I always run around with an antimagic field on it just isn't true, as I am now mentioning for the 3rd time it's only against high level casters who I shall beat in melee. You mention ranged attacks, I have none like i said I use a sword or swords. Sure special wizards can counter spell great, there are many ways to beat a wizard but the fact is with my initiative bonus of +15 due to taking the wizard ability and always rolling a 20 for int it means I go first so anyone who is a caster and can't immediately counter spell loses, I just fly up 120feet and antimagic field flying above their head, they cant take a 5 foot step as I will still threaten them they cant cast spells if they attempt to move out i just trip them, the list goes on...
Okay you want to know how I kill a dragon? The issue here is you all think so small and confined to what you've seen other characters do, you don't think outside the box. Now granted this isn't something I would like to do regularly but there are two ways of doing this, either i spend a round against the dragon just throwing swords on the ground and then do this maneuver or I just do it in a single round depending on the DM. There are sheathes in paizo you can buy that hold multiple swords, buy some. then see said dragon, absolutely beat it in the initiative check and then do this, free actions - draw 10 to 15 swords because you have quick draw and battle lord 2, then as a swift action smite the dragon, then as a standard cast teleknesis and throw 15 said +2 scimitars at the dragon, you have improved crit so you crit on 15 or 16s which is ridiculous, Smite adds 20 dmg to each of those attacks, you are using teleknesis which is Cha to attack rolls not str so more to hit and smite is another full stack of char to hit so you practically never miss. with crits you do over 400dmg easy. that's a dead dragon in as single turn, want to do it over two turns? get a friend to distract the dragon for one turn so you can throw swords on the ground in case your DM understandably doesnt want you to take 15 free actions i a turn and as your standard action use that luck domain power you took for 1 divine rank and then next round re-roll all those d20's incase you actually missed., hell if the dragon is silly enough to do dmg to you and not kill you, smite rival it as well so your teleknesis sword attacks do over 800 dmg in a round, did i mention you ignore all dmg reduction of any kind with smite evil?
If you seriously think the answer to this not being an over the top class is, use an archenist to counter spell as an immediate action or close your eyes for a 50% miss chance and still face 50+ AC and an auto parry then you are either ignorant or some vested interest in the godling class. I'm sure like myself will are all capable of finding some way to specifically beat any said build but the fact remains that 95% of the time a well made godling is just miles ahead of the other paizo classes.
Some more food for though,The cap stone, when you die (BY ANY MEANS AT ALL) take a characteristic check using your casting stat. In my case I think about +14 maybe even 15 as I dump everything into charisma, if you pass you don't die but remain one HP from dead, okay not such a big deal right? Again the people who made this have no understanding of how rules interact and haven't thought about how stupid this ability is. So I dip into divine portfolio again, this time it costs 2 whole divine points for this ability? Did I mention I have about 20 of these points to spend? anyway you take the resilience oracle ability, now unless you are dead you can take standard actions even when below 0 HP, so now someone kills you you pass a check that 3/4 times or more you will pass and bam you dont die. Did you take the healing domain as our second domain? I sure did because you know this class gives you not one but two domains, so next turn when you should have died you just cast heal, in full plate mail of course with no spell failure either may I add. Great now they have to kill you all over again. But wait there's more purchase now and get these free steak knives! Do you remember that luck domain you took? Well suddenly you have 3 1/day re-rolls in the bank to use whenever you want. Damn you failed that charisma check to stay alive, just re-roll it! now your chance of actually dying is around 8%. But I see you still aren't sold, this isn't silly at all what would make it silly is taking mental avatar (which I did along with every other ability and so many more I haven't mentioned) and gain 4 more re-rolls that are free actions, so if someone wants to actually kill you they need to kill you first, already hard, then you need to fail a charisma check 8 times in a row! Every time you pass just means they have to go do it all again. Think you are going to die? Just teleport away because you know, you can. Ridiculous. Seriously I could go on with more stupidity this character is capable of but if this doesn't show you my point then I give up. If that is the case, congrats, what a brilliantly balanced and well play tested class I'm sure every DM would really enjoy a party full of self healing fighter, antimagic feld using attack parrying immortal fullplate smiting characters, certainly seems about as good as a standard fighter class right?
oh lastly You take the ability where your supernatural abilities can the same ability to penetrate anti magic fields, so no Legendary beauty would not get suppressed by one of my own or most of the time by any anti magic field with a caster level of 17 or less. Also no there weren't any errors with my assumptions vs the dragon, simply you made errors in assuming instead of actually going over to the adept godling class and having a look for yourself an what can be achieved with that class. Most of this would be a lot easier to explain if you actually read the class and worked through it yourself so you can understand it's abilities.
Regards,
Crynn
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