I've seen a lot of threads saying not to do this cause it can't be done and I want to know am I missing something? Cause I've been going through my thought patterns and research and seems it can be. I want to make sure I'm not incorrect.
This started as looking for help/interesting ideas to play for my next game, Wolf Shaman has always looked good to me for I have a love of the animal, but I never played cause people rib me for always being related to wolves if I can.
Found a few threads saying don't do it, you find yourself without wildshape options, and summoning them isn't worth it as at higher levels you don't have the canine options.
So I'm looking at
Totemic Summons (Su): At 5th level, a wolf shaman may cast summon nature’s ally as a standard action when summoning canines, and these summoned creatures gain temporary hit points equal to her druid level. This ability otherwise functions as the bear shaman ability.
Seems simple enough to me, go over to Bear Shaman and I start to see that magic.
Totemic Summons (Su): At 5th level, a bear shaman may cast summon nature’s ally as a standard action when summoning bears, and summoned bears gain temporary hit points equal to her druid level. She can apply the young template to any bear to reduce the level of the summoning spell required by one. She can also increase the level of summoning required by one in order to apply either the advanced or the giant template, or increase it by two to apply both the advanced and giant templates. This ability replaces a thousand faces.
So at 5th when I get it I can have a Young dire wolf, or a Giant or Advanced wolf. Following that through Dire Wolf is Summon Nature's Ally 4 so at SNA 6 I can have a Giant Advanced Dire Wolf (which shifts it from large to huge) and by SNA 8 you have 1d4+1 of them.
This was why I was wondering why can't I wildshape into a huge wolf? I'm familiar with them from summoning them. And its possible to get dire wolves in that size.
As a general rule, creatures whose Hit Dice increase by 50% or more should also increase in size, but GMs should feel free to ignore this rule if warranted by the individual creature or situation.
So a Dire Wolf only needs 3 advances in HD to become huge, which I'm pretty sure is going to happen now and again. So they probably do exist, and the rules are there for them to exist.
I won't lie, going through this the Dire Wolf only becomes a challenge rating 5 creature sadly, wish I could do more to help it but these are the rules we live with.
Back to the point of the thread, so they can exist via the rules, you can summon them and thus should be familiar with them, so when the moment comes shouldn't you be able to wildshape into one?
This wasn't a thread to debate which shaman was best but more see if through what I'd read if you could wildshape into a huge wolf, to me it seems its possible but I wanted to know if I'd misunderstood some rules or possibly just missed something entirely. Thank you for any help you can give me.
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No, you cannot apply templates to a Wild Shape.
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature’s type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
- Gauss
Okay thank you for that Gauss, but what about the Dire Wolf that has advanced 3 HD is there anything to stop me from taking on that shape? Its not got any templates and all I gain are its abilities within the confines of Beast Form?
Following this its a little vague or I'm tired, when you wildshape or beast shape, do you use your stats or the stats of the creature you transformed into as it says you take on the form of the animal and gain abilities from the list if it had them, then says you gain a Size bonus to Str or Dex and + some natural armour. (I'm only asking as I have two druid players I talk to and one says its my stats buffed by the spell and the other says its the animal forms)
First, advanced is a template: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/advanced-creatu re-cr-1
Second, you use your stats modified by the spell. In 3.5 you used the ability scores of the creature you morphed into it was found to be overpowered so it was adjusted for Pathfinder. Read the spell again it is pretty clear as to what bonuses you get.
No, it also states you cannot become an "advanced version of a creature".
How Beast Shape (all polymorph spells) work (assumes a standard small/medium creature to start with):
1) Take your physical stats and add the bonuses from the spell you are using (specific to the size of creature you change into).
Example: If changing into a Diminutive creature (Beast Shape III) look at the Diminutive line and change your physical stats by the amount stated.
2) Recalculate Armor Class based on new Dexterity score, Size, and new Natural Armor bonus. (Note: you lose any existing Natural Armor bonus due to race.)
3) Calculate Attack bonuses based on new Strength (or Dexterity as appropriate) score and Size.
4) Damage Dice is based on the creature's damage dice. For example: If a creature has a 1d8+5 bite attack you get 1d8 damage dice.
5) Damage Bonus is based on your new Strength score and any feats or abilities you may have.
6) Recalculate CMB and CMD based on your new Strength (and Dexterity for CMD) and Size.
7) Gain speed and movement abilities up to what the spell states OR the creatures whichever is worse.
What you do NOT get:
A) Size bonuses to strength, Dexterity, or natural armor.
B) You do not get the actual creature type. You are a Humanoid pretending to be another creature type. You do not actually get the creature type.
Example: if you change into an Elemental you do not get an Elementals Immunity to critical hits unless the spell states you do.
You should read pages 211 and 212 on Polymorph. Many of the rules for Polymorph are there (rather than in each polymorph type spell).
If you have any specific transformations in mind feel free to post the players base stats and the creature. I will walk you through how to do it. :)
BTW, any omissions of things you get or do not get are because I am working off of memory. You should not take my list as a complete list of what you do and do not get.
- Gauss
Driver 325 yards,
Wild Shape (Su): At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to
turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here.
Since it functions as Beast Shape I it follows the rules of Beast Shape I. Thus, it follows the general polymorph rules. The polymorph rules prevent any polymorph effect from using Templates.
- Gauss
I did in the second post of this thread. :)
However, here you go:
This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here.
So, Wild Shape functions like Beast Shape I (and later, Beast Shape II and III, Elemental Body I through IV, and Plant Shape I through III).
Since Beast Shape I is a polymorph spell and there are no exceptions to the general polymorph rules provided in Wild Shape we go to the next step:
Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
Thus, you can only take the run of the mill creature out of the book.
- Gauss
Any Roc other than the Gargantuan Roc printed in the Bestiary is not available and the Gargantuan Roc is not available because, well, it is Gargantuan.
This has been the source of much discussion in various threads why they would list a Roc in the Eagle Shaman archetype but be unable to actually change into it. It isn't the first time Paizo has created an ability which is unusable due to being against the rules (with no exceptions being provided).
- Gauss
Your question does not have a proper answer. Huge Rocs are Rocs with the Young Template.
Medium and Large Rocs are Animal Companions.
There are no Medium or Large Rocs unless they are Animal Companions since you cannot apply a template twice.
- Gauss
Well I have to disagree with the statement that medium and large Rocs don't exist.
It is irrelevant whether or not they exist in the world. It is only relevant that one does not exist as an official stat block without a template.
So maybe this is our impasse. You assume that any creature that is not the size of the creature listed in the bestiary is a creature with a template. I don't. That may be the writer's intent, but if it is they did not state it clearly.
I actually assume that any creature that is not the size of the creature listed in the bestiary cannot be polymorphed into, by RAW, because no stats exist for them without templating.
Also, in the case of the Roc. Even if we take your position at face value, there is no reason that a person could not view the Eagle Shaman langauge as overriding the general position that you assert.
I don't see any language that would override anything about Wild Shape.
They may or may not exist, this is the Rules forum. Without a house rule you can only choose creatures out of the printed material and you cannot apply a template to them.
The author of the shaman archetypes (Jason Nelson) has even stated that it is against the rules to apply templates but that it is not unreasonable to houserule it.
I seem to also remember that somewhere he included wording to allow shamans to apply size altering templates to their shaman animal wild shapes but that it was removed from the game before it went to print.
That is probably why you cannot turn into a Roc. The ability to do so was removed before it went to print but they did not remove the reference to Roc from the rest of the print.
Look, you can disagree with the rules all you want but they ARE the rules. Houserule them in your own game (I do).
Here is the author discussing Bear Shaman
Perhaps somewhere else there is him discussing Rocs but he is a prolific poster and I dont feel like searching all of his shaman related posts. :)
- Gauss
Wow, since you are ignoring the author's own statements that it is against the rules I guess there is no further use discussing this with you.
- Gauss
Once and for all, I believe it is RAW that an Eagle Shaman can turn into a Huge Roc because that is what Eagle Shaman states. At the very least, it is an exception to your rule just like having a medium or large Roc companion is an exception.
It says absolutely nothing about turning into a Huge Roc at all. Where are you seeing that line?
Further, I do not believe that all creatures that are not sized in accordance with the creature in the bestiary are creatures with a template on them - for the reasons already stated. Since there exist medium, large and huge Rocs without a template on them (as Gauss has established) and since there is no rule that limits the creatures you can turn into to those in the bestiary (excepting PFS because I don't know one way or the other), you can wildshape into a Huge template free Roc.
Please, provide me the stat block of a Huge Roc without a template on it.
Thanks mplindustries, I hadn't even caught that Driver misquoted me.
Driver, I did NOT state that huge Rocs do not have a template. I specifically stated that they did. Do try to be accurate next time. :)
- Gauss
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To the OP, as long as you're not planning this character for Pathfinder Society, talk to your GM.
As you pointed out, you'll be able to summon different types of wolves for most of your career, it's just your wildshape that gets held back. If your GM finds it acceptable to turn into a huge-sized wolf, you're golden.
If this is for PFS, you're out of luck.
As an aside, where does it say you can only apply a template once (this is an honest question, I don't recall seeing that anywhere)?
For most templates this isn't an issue (you can't be more-Lichy than a Lich) but I have applied multiple Advanced templates to a critter, and could see applying multiple Young templates.
Gauss, I think Driver was looking at your "Medium and Large rocs are animal companions" and "You can't apply the same template twice" comments to infer that Medium and Large rocs(animal companions) were "rocs without a template." He is still misquoting you, but not intentionally I think.
In a home game, I wouldn't have a problem with an Eagle Shaman (or other druid) Wildshaping into the Medium or Large roc animal companion stats, but I agree it isn't how Wildshape works RAW.
Hmmm, Samasboy1, you are correct. There is no rule against a creature having a template twice. For some reason I thought there was. Perhaps I was thinking of the concept that once you have a thing you cannot get it a second time.
However, according to James Jacobs, it is probably better to rebuild a creature rather than template it twice.
Templates are a quick way to restat a creature but they are not that accurate. The rebuild rules will do better than templating twice.
Here is a thread discussing this
It appears the consensus is that yes, you can do it but, you generally should be careful doing so because you can wind up with some very overpowered creatures.
- Gauss
Okay, hey guys I'd like to start with a big thank you for all your help, yeah I feel like an idiot for missing the end of the polymorph rules with my second question, but I was really tired at that point.
Also thanks for clearing up the whole wildshaping thing, I thought I knew what I meant but having two bickering players who both bend the rules does kind of distort the wording even when you're looking at it alone and can see both versions can be taken depending on how you read it.
Lastly thank you for giving me an interesting 5-10 minute break from my morning routine, sorry if my thread irritated any of you.
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we're having a similar discussion in the Eagle Shaman / Huge Roc thread. link
the text of the eagle shaman says they can turn into a Roc. But the rules for polymorph / beast shape prevent it.
i've seen it said that the original writer for the archetype had text similar to the summoning text, so that the Shamans can specifically turn into young and giant versions of creatures , so you could turn, effectively, into a giant dire wolf ( huge ), and all you get from it is Dire Wolf with natural attacks sized up to huge. But the text was cut from the final draft.
I do it in home games all the time anyway, as Beast Shape doesn't limit you to specific entries in the bestiary. For PFS, you're screwed. But it appears the original intent was for the shamans to be able to size up or size down their Totem wild shape based on their level/ Beast Shape access.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Its not got any templates and all I gain are its abilities within the confines of Beast Form?
You can only take the form of a stat block in an allowed book.
Without a class ability that directly tells you how to do something, you can't do it. Since you are not told how to do a Huge Wolf, you can't.