Starting a new campaign with my friends at level 8, looking to play a magus type character.
other party members are a sylvan sorcerer, a rogue, and a paladin who will mostly heal and tank. DPS is pretty important to me (sorc is more control and pally wont do a lot of damage) but otherwise I think I can play whatever.
my stats are rolled, 17, 15, 14, 11, 11, 9
was thinking
str 17 (to 19 with racial half elf) +1 level up
dex 11
con 14
int 15 +1 from level up
wis 11
cha 9
I'm pretty set that I don't want to be a dervish magus, I like the str build a lot better.
From there, there are a few options im considering.
I'd really like to use one of the archetypes as a few of them seem interesting to me. Unfortunately other than bladebound a lot of them give up the major class features (especially spell recall)
Myrmidarch for example I'd like to use but I cant justify losing spell recall for the ranges spellstrike that I dont even want to use... would really like weapon and armor training from it, and the earlier access to fighter feats.
I'm interested in cabalist, but I realized I wouldnt be able to metamagic with spell combat due to the longer cast times. I won't be able to afford spontaneous metafocus for shocking grasp either, due to my low cha.
I'm tempted to do the cabalist with dragon bloodline and do some dragon disciple dips. It seems to be DD would actually be worth it on a magus who can also use armor and already has bloodline bonuses that stack with DD. I'd need to figure out the metamagic thing though
I think most of all I'm having trouble judging whats important with this class. How big an impairment is it to lose spell recall, or to not be able to intensify shocking grasp?
I could go myrmidarch and bladebound and just not care about arcana and AP points so much, be more of a fighter who can buff himself while he full attacks. Then i'd pick up arcane strike since I'd never be using my swift actions other than to initially buff my weapon.
Or I could go cabalist and stack up some natural armor and be a spontaneous caster (but is spontaneous casting needed with spell recall?)
or I could just go straight magus and get a huge Arcane pool and just constantly recall intensified shocking grasps. Seems to be the recommended way to use a magus anyway. I'm just not super impressed with most of the arcana options for some reason.
any advice to help me narrow my focus a bit?
Why the 11 dex and 9 cha?
You should even those stats out.
Artanthos wrote: Why the 11 dex and 9 cha?
You should even those stats out.
I'd love to but they are rolled and I got stuck with a bunch of odd numbers... at least I can dump stat wis and cha
I'd actually like to even out con and dex a bit so each has a small bonus too...
Artanthos wrote: Why the 11 dex and 9 cha?
You should even those stats out.
RaegarT wrote: my stats are rolled
ZanThrax wrote: Artanthos wrote: Why the 11 dex and 9 cha?
You should even those stats out.
RaegarT wrote: my stats are rolled I like the shock of your avatar's face. Seems appropriate.
Well, if I was in your place and set on the magus (I'm usually more interested in Eldritch Knight or Dragon Disciple if I want to mix melee and arcane magic), I'd go for the straight Magus or the Bladebound archtype.
Straight Magus, your build is fine.. but if I went bladebound (which I'm more likely to do, I love the concept of the archtype), I'd aim to raise intelligence, put your bonus into intelligence instead of strength, sense your pool is lower then the usual magus, though some of it is tied up with the blade... of course, I'm also likely to make the character an elf instead of a half-elf, and shift the 9 in cha to dex, making all of my stats over 10, though it does lose me a bit from con, lowering it 12 instead of 14
Krul wrote: Well, if I was in your place and set on the magus (I'm usually more interested in Eldritch Knight or Dragon Disciple if I want to mix melee and arcane magic), I'd go for the straight Magus or the Bladebound archtype.
Main reason I like the magus better, is that you get to wear armor without issues, and you get spell combat. Being able to cast a spell at the same time as full round attacking just seems amazing to me. All the other magus stuff is just bonus after that.
And really IMO the magus has all the necessary spells for a fighter/mage anyway, and even gets some of the blasts to boot (and can pick up any wizard spell they want with spell blending too!)
I do agree somewhat that maybe an elf, boosting dex and int would be a bit better and give me some more well rounded stats.
Basically looking at a few concepts:
1) Bladebound myrmidarch: basically abandon arcane pool entirely other than enchanting the weapon. Instead stack up weapon focus/specialization and arcane strike (not using swift actions anyway.) along with weapon training and armor training (better if I get a decent dex score)
Focus is on the attacks rather than the spells. He uses spell combat as much as he can, but mostly to fit his buffs in without losing full attack actions.
2) Dragon cabalist (at least magus 7 for the cabalist bloodline stuff) with DD levels. The stat boosts will all help and the combined natural armor would be awesome. Give up the ability to metamagic shocking grasp with spell combat, but get the +1 damage per dice effect for it at least (picking electric dragon).
3) Regular magus with decent int and using the half elf favored class for even more pool points. Use the points to spam spell recall and blast away with intensified shocking grasp. Maybe pick up a couple other arcanas like the accuracy too. Otherwise spell blendings.
I really like the Bladebound myself but I wouldn't go with Myrmidarch. I think Spell Recall and Knowledge Pool are too valuable to give up. If you can recall spells, you'll be able to prepare a much wider variety instead of having nothing but Shocking Grasp prepared. With the Knowledge Pool, you can fill up your spellbook quickly and inexpensively.
Because the Bladebound has a reduced arcane pool, I'd focus on arcana that don't use the pool and don't require swift actions. That way you could get Arcane Strike and make the most use of it.
I admit, the Intensified Shocking Grasp trick is really nice. I don't think you'd be gimping yourself terribly by skipping it though.
Well I'm going to pull out one of my old posts for new Magi to dispel some assumptions and clarify a bit on what the class actually IS.
Now before this goes any further let me give you a very simple statement to help you understand what a Magus really is. It sums up the class about as clearly as possible.
A Magus is a Caster who fights, not a Fighter who casts.
Everything about the class is based on the assumption that 90% of your effectiveness comes from your magical abilities. Spending resources on anything else actually makes your character weaker.
You can absolutely build your Magus as a bladebound or myrmidach and spend your feats/resources getting stronger attacks with it but in the end it will actually make you a weaker combatant then focusing on your spellcasting.
The point we are highlighting here is your MAGICAL abilities are what you use to win your fights. Your weapon and melee abilities are there strictly to to let you deliver your spells onto the target. Other then that they are pretty much useless.
Now to address some of your specific points:
Spell Recall is a crutch you don't need to and really shouldn't worry about. Yes it lets you spend arcane points to recover spells used, but so do Pearls of Power and they are a LOT cheaper. You have MUCH better things to spend your points on (haste, + to hit, resolving attacks against Touch ac, etc)
Myrmidarch Magus doesn't work. Please note the archetype doesn't have ranged spell combat only spellstrike. This means you can never use spellcombat with your main attack type (ranged) pretty much gutting the signature ability of the class.
If you want to be a fighter that buffs themself before wading into melee, then play an inquisitor. It does it MUCH better and is built around it.
Mathwei ap Niall wrote: Well I'm going to pull out one of my old posts for new Magi to dispel some assumptions and clarify a bit on what the class actually IS.
Now before this goes any further let me give you a very simple statement to help you understand what a Magus really is. It sums up the class about as clearly as possible.
A Magus is a Caster who fights, not a Fighter who casts.
Everything about the class is based on the assumption that 90% of your effectiveness comes from your magical abilities. Spending resources on anything else actually makes your character weaker.
You can absolutely build your Magus as a bladebound or myrmidach and spend your feats/resources getting stronger attacks with it but in the end it will actually make you a weaker combatant then focusing on your spellcasting.
The point we are highlighting here is your MAGICAL abilities are what you use to win your fights. Your weapon and melee abilities are there strictly to to let you deliver your spells onto the target. Other then that they are pretty much useless.
Now to address some of your specific points:
Spell Recall is a crutch you don't need to and really shouldn't worry about. Yes it lets you spend arcane points to recover spells used, but so do Pearls of Power and they are a LOT cheaper. You have MUCH better things to spend your points on (haste, + to hit, resolving attacks against Touch ac, etc)
Myrmidarch Magus doesn't work. Please note the archetype doesn't have ranged spell combat only spellstrike. This means you can never use spellcombat with your main attack type (ranged) pretty much gutting the signature ability of the class.
If you want to be a fighter that buffs themself before wading into melee, then play an inquisitor. It does it MUCH better and is built around it.
Good clarification, you are right of course.
Just a few points:
spell recall: Yes pearls are much better especially level 1 (500gp each if you craft them). I guess spell recall is only good if you need to use it in combat as its swift?
-also once you get imp. spell recall you can get 3rd level spells with 1 point which is a LOT more useful
Myrmidarch: You're right of course. I dont understand why an archetype that mostly makes you a better tank/fighter has this ranged ability with such a huge drawback. I'm planning to have a low dex mod anyway, I really never would use it. Yes it sucks and its pretty much why I wont use myrmidarch. I'd consider the archetype if I could just remove this "feature"
I do still like the idea of the cabalist, I just cant see how to make it work without being able to metamagic shocking grasp...
At the very least I'll be getting preferred spell for shocking grasp because at least it keeps it as a standard action cast time (though having to get heighten is annoying)
Oh also
Haste doesnt add an extra attack to the magus with spell combat
Its right there on the magus page FAQ
"
Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?
No. Spell combat is its own kind of full-round action, and is not a full attack action.
"
SO that kinda makes haste a lot less appealing as a buff to cast for the magus doesnt it?
you have missed the latest edit on the FAQ about haste:
Magus, Spell Combat: Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?
Yes.
Edit 9/9/13: This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn't specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling did not allow the extra attack from haste when using spell combat.
RhaegarT wrote: Oh also
Haste doesnt add an extra attack to the magus with spell combat
Its right there on the magus page FAQ
"
Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?
No. Spell combat is its own kind of full-round action, and is not a full attack action.
"
SO that kinda makes haste a lot less appealing as a buff to cast for the magus doesnt it?
No, that has been removed as of last week and now you CAN get an additional attack with haste while using spellcombat. This was clarified by SKR and should be in the faq as of now.
Cabalist is kind of sucky for what it gives you. Being spontaneous has it's advantages but losing knowledge pool (you know EVERY magus spell for free) and Greater spell access (free still spell on 14 new spells) in exchange for losing flexibility just seems BAD to me.
Finally, preferred spell is only worth it if you plan to spam shocking grasp and that's kind of a 1 trick pony build.
Mathwei ap Niall wrote: RhaegarT wrote: Oh also
Haste doesnt add an extra attack to the magus with spell combat
Its right there on the magus page FAQ
"
Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?
No. Spell combat is its own kind of full-round action, and is not a full attack action.
"
SO that kinda makes haste a lot less appealing as a buff to cast for the magus doesnt it?
No, that has been removed as of last week and now you CAN get an additional attack with haste while using spellcombat. This was clarified by SKR and should be in the faq as of now.
Cabalist is kind of sucky for what it gives you. Being spontaneous has it's advantages but losing knowledge pool (you know EVERY magus spell for free) and Greater spell access (free still spell on 14 new spells) in exchange for losing flexibility just seems BAD to me.
Finally, preferred spell is only worth it if you plan to spam shocking grasp and that's kind of a 1 trick pony build.
thanks for the update on haste.
I'm not worried about knowledge pool. sure its nice but I mapped out a character and even with just the 2 spells per level I grabbed almost everything I really want
What do you mean 14 spells with "free still spell"? because you can cast the wizard spells in armor?
Cabalist at least gets the bloodline spells eventually though i agree its not as good.
isn't shocking grasp really the only spell to build around? I mean what else is a direct damage touch spell that qualifies for intensify, can be done as a level 1 spell and basically used endlessly between spell recall and pearls?
I agree the 1 type of damage kinda sucks but can always get elemental spell for it to cover that, which is fine if you have preferred spell and can spontaneously apply it...
RhaegarT wrote: Mathwei ap Niall wrote: RhaegarT wrote: Oh also
Haste doesnt add an extra attack to the magus with spell combat
Its right there on the magus page FAQ
"
Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?
No. Spell combat is its own kind of full-round action, and is not a full attack action.
"
SO that kinda makes haste a lot less appealing as a buff to cast for the magus doesnt it?
No, that has been removed as of last week and now you CAN get an additional attack with haste while using spellcombat. This was clarified by SKR and should be in the faq as of now.
Cabalist is kind of sucky for what it gives you. Being spontaneous has it's advantages but losing knowledge pool (you know EVERY magus spell for free) and Greater spell access (free still spell on 14 new spells) in exchange for losing flexibility just seems BAD to me.
Finally, preferred spell is only worth it if you plan to spam shocking grasp and that's kind of a 1 trick pony build.
thanks for the update on haste.
I'm not worried about knowledge pool. sure its nice but I mapped out a character and even with just the 2 spells per level I grabbed almost everything I really want
What do you mean 14 spells with "free still spell"? because you can cast the wizard spells in armor?
Cabalist at least gets the bloodline spells eventually though i agree its not as good.
isn't shocking grasp really the only spell to build around? I mean what else is a direct damage touch spell that qualifies for intensify, can be done as a level 1 spell and basically used endlessly between spell recall and pearls?
I agree the 1 type of damage kinda sucks but can always get elemental spell for it to cover that, which is fine if you have preferred spell and can spontaneously apply it...
Overwhelmingly the superior 1st level spell is frostbite. It does 1D6+your level in damage and can be used your level # of times per casting. Let me break it down for you WHY frostbite is a better spell.. with MATH!! :)
Quote: Lets say you get a flat +10 to hit and damage on each hit by 12th level, lets make it +15 to hit and damage instead just to highlight the difference. That means you're combat values look like this against a CR appropriate opponent (lets go an adult black dragon at CR 12).
1D6+15 at +24/+19 to hit. With spell combat it drops to +22/17 but you get to add 10D6 damage from 1 shocking grasp. Against AC 31 that's a 45% miss on the first shot and 70% on the second. Lets say you got lucky and both of them hit you would then do 12D6+30 or 72 pts of damage (average) IF you could get through the spell resistance. (Since you focused everything on the Blade then your spell casting is going to be weaker and more badly affected by the SR).
Now imagine you are attacking that same target but shaped as a Calikang and channeling a Frostbite spell.
Here you'll be doing ((1D6+6 (from str) + 1D6+12)x5 times a round) for 10D6+120 every round with no iterative penalty on your attacks (all your claw attacks are at full BaB) for an Average of 155 pts of damage a round instead. And unlike the shocking grasp spell you can keep making these attacks for 2 more rounds before it runs out.
It's an all together better spell but shocking grasp does have more burst potential if you crit.
Interesting spell but if I started pulling a bunch of shapechange multi claw attack shenanigans all the time I'd get shut down pretty quick by the DM. I don't like doing cheesy stuff like that.
I do like the spells that last for a while through multiple attacks, seems to fit well with spellstrike.
You can't cast another spell while you are still holding charges though right?
RhaegarT wrote: Interesting spell but if I started pulling a bunch of shapechange multi claw attack shenanigans all the time I'd get shut down pretty quick by the DM. I don't like doing cheesy stuff like that.
I do like the spells that last for a while through multiple attacks, seems to fit well with spellstrike.
You can't cast another spell while you are still holding charges though right?
Shapechange is a valid tactic but if it doesn't fit you personally then skip it.
Also yes it's true that you can't cast another spell without forfeiting all your remaining charges you CAN use any spell-like, supernatural or extraordinary ability without giving up the charges.
This is why the most popular archetype for Magi is the hexcrafter. Hexes lets you keep going without ever losing a single charge from your multi-touch spells.
Mathwei ap Niall wrote: RhaegarT wrote: Interesting spell but if I started pulling a bunch of shapechange multi claw attack shenanigans all the time I'd get shut down pretty quick by the DM. I don't like doing cheesy stuff like that.
I do like the spells that last for a while through multiple attacks, seems to fit well with spellstrike.
You can't cast another spell while you are still holding charges though right?
Shapechange is a valid tactic but if it doesn't fit you personally then skip it.
Also yes it's true that you can't cast another spell without forfeiting all your remaining charges you CAN use any spell-like, supernatural or extraordinary ability without giving up the charges.
This is why the most popular archetype for Magi is the hexcrafter. Hexes lets you keep going without ever losing a single charge from your multi-touch spells.
I'll admit I havent looked at the hexcrafter too closely, mainly because I don't know much about the witch to begin with. I can see the advantage though if you are using spells like that.
I do see how a lot of the touch spells are worth using even if they cant be intensified like shocking grasp. frigid touch for example is a great debuff even though its stuck at 4d6 damage.
I guess because walters guide is the only one out there maybe im putting too much weight on shocking grasp. It does seem the most viable if you truly want to rely on your spells to kill things and arent using some method of massively upping your attacks/round.
The frostbite Spell is great, i use it along with the enforcer feat om my magus, but undead or creatures with cold resistance will be less impressed. Dont make a one trick Riding dog. And dont think of your magus as a caster who figths or as a figther who casts. Think of him as someone who can be both, and by being that can do things that neither figther nor caster can do, and IMOP that is why it is fun.
Quote:
I guess because walters guide is the only one out there maybe im putting too much weight on shocking grasp. It does seem the most viable if you truly want to rely on your spells to kill things and arent using some method of massively upping your attacks/round.
NOT True, Sir.
Check the guide to the guides and you will see there is a GUIDE TO THE HEXCRAFTER, by myself and Mathwei Ap Niall.
Best Archetype. We will make you believe.
STR Ranger wrote: Quote:
I guess because walters guide is the only one out there maybe im putting too much weight on shocking grasp. It does seem the most viable if you truly want to rely on your spells to kill things and arent using some method of massively upping your attacks/round.
NOT True, Sir.
Check the guide to the guides and you will see there is a GUIDE TO THE HEXCRAFTER, by myself and Mathwei Ap Niall.
Best Archetype. We will make you believe. definitely looks pretty awesome. Even just getting evil eye and flight alone would make it worth it.
What do you think of the Malice and stalwart arcana to go with it?
Just to confirm, I cant use a hex like evil eye with spellstrike or spell combat right? But I can just cast it whenever I want as a standard action?
The free bestow curse is nice as its a wizard spell I might have picked up anyway.
Does the hexcrafter get these as a wizard or a witch spell? it matters as on the witch list they are 1 level earlier...
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