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So I was hanging around the d20 last few days and found a feat that I just can't seem to go around but I'll be buying the crunch books and the core books and won't have the cash for the primer that contains this one feat.
What I want to know is how "strict" you actually are. I wouldn't lie about it if asked because I didn't lie about it at my first game and he let me use it anyway saying A) it's your first game and B) it's only one feat and it isn't game breaking or anything. I thanked him and we played on and so forth and so on.
Now I can totally understand shutting down someone who gathers stuff from scattered resources and everything under the sun and just kicking him out since that's just outright "thievery" I suppose. If half the character sheet is composed of stuff they can't legally use, sure. But about a person who has one or two items that make no major impacts of legendary status on the game? For instance there's also a trait I thought to take, but can't, and thus haven't in the DEP/ISP that grants Linguistics as a class skill and gives +1 in it. That's all it does. I thought it great flavor ( it does go with his background ) for my Half-Orc Fighter but knowing the rules turned it down and had nothing to fill the slot, haha! I am just curious if anyone "really" would have demanded to see if I could legally use Cosmopolitan or am I being a tad paranoid.
Again, it's more of a question of practicality because it would cost $16 to acquire 2 items, and I'm a bit too green to be that fanatical about it. I would of course bring any related print-outs as necessary but I'm not trying to take "good s#@%" like Infernal Healing. I know better.
Oh, and yes, I know what I'm asking is if I can ... "cheat". I know this. I wouldn't lie about it but I'm curious how you would rule.
I'm with Shar Tahl, that was a confusing jumble. I'm not even sure what it is your trying to do with your supposedly cheating feat, or trait, or whatever. Could you be a little more clear about what it is you're trying to do that you supposedly shouldn't be able to?
I have the sneaking suspicion this is a PFS issue. As I read it, the OP wants a feat/trait on his character in a book he doesn't own.
I could be wrong.
If what you are asking is can you use a feat from a book you do not own, the answer depends if it is a PFS game, or a homebrew. In a homebrew game the GM is the one making the rules and for the most part they will not care whether you have the book. PFS specifically states that in order for you to use something you have to own at least the PDF, if not the book. Since this is organized play the GM has to follow those guidelines.
I have the sneaking suspicion this is a PFS issue. As I read it, the OP wants a feat/trait on his character in a book he doesn't own.
I could be wrong.
This is how I read it, too.
The thing I've pushed is at least be aware of where your feat comes from. I've encountered several people who obtain feats from d20pfsrd or hero lab and don't write down which book they are from.
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This should be in the Pathfinder Society general section, not the Advice section of the boards. (And you should probably be more explicit that you're asking a question about PFS rules.)
How strict your GM will be depends on the GM and the culture of your area. I probably wouldn't disallow your character the first time you used something from a resource you didn't have, but I would nag you about it. If you continued to try using something intentionally even though you don't have the resource, I wouldn't allow the character. I know quite a few GMs who would simply hand you a pregen, though. If it's a feat or trait or something, I simply might not notice that you were using something from an obscure resource. On the other hand, there are some really commonly used options from relatively obscure resources that they will pique a GM's interest. Infernal Healing, Blood Money, Cornugon Smash and Dervish Dance automatically prompt me to ask for a resource.
D20PFSRD changes some names. If you use one of their names instead of the official name, your character is not going to be playable at my table: I don't care how new you are, there won't be any Dervishes of Dawn sitting at my table. It's a personal pet peeve.
Some GMs will be halfway lenient, allowing you to play your character but not use an option that you don't have a resource for. If that's makes your character unplayable, there are always pregens.
So it's really up to you. But the more important the option is to your build, the more important it generally is to have the additional resource.
Pretending to be naive is bad, though. You are (pretty transparently) trying to deceive your GM and that will give you a bad reputation. People will cut you less slack. It's best to own up to it, tell them you spent all your available cash on the other books and didn't have enough left over to pick up a book just for one feat.
#1. How do I get this moved? :D
#2. You're correct. I admit, rather openly, this is the case. Also, I didn't intend to "deceive" and I did word it wrong and leave out something important.
My character sheet, unless it's from the CRB or APG, has the initials of the source for all items so it's not deceptive because the sheet would look like this for Cosmopolitan, for example:
Trait: [Regional] Cosmopolitan; +1 Linguistics; Becomes Class Skill :: ISP
So all of the stuff on my character sheets are "sourced" so A) I don't have to remember them and B) for referencing and rules. As a matter of fact that's WHY the GM allowed me to keep it during my first game, because it was referenced and he could openly ask me about it.
For PFS, to use a feat, trait, piece of equipment, etc., you must own a copy of the source material (with some very limited caveats).
EDIT: It appears the comment I responded to was deleted, so I'll just edit to the main point I made.
#1. How do I get this moved? :D
Flag your post "Thread is in wrong forum" and ask others to do the same. (I just did.)
#2. You're correct. I admit, rather openly, this is the case. Also, I didn't intend to "deceive" and I did word it wrong and leave out something important.
I kind of gather your original question was "how strict are you about allowing materials from other sourcebooks" -- to which my answer is, "RPG line only (anything in the official PRD), and double check with me with anything that isn't core. I 90% of the time will allow it, and the other 10% it's because it doesn't suit the campaign, but please just run it by me."
However, I am not a PFS GM or player. I know PFS GMs have to be pretty adherent to what is and isn't allowed in the Society, and I would not expect or ask them to be otherwise.
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We're required to observe the rules, but I generally don't go down character sheets and demand a hardcover copy or for them to pull up their accounts on paizo.com to show they own the book. I have a feeling under 20% of the people who play alt-Aasimirs own the otherwise-totally-useless-and-badly-written Blood of Angels book.
When I do audit is for major events (retirements is the only example) I will do the book check and full character sheet scan; but I don't have time to do that every time. With that said, you are knowingly breaking the rules; so if you're going to do it, at least try to "make good" and buy the books later as you can afford them (and they're solid reads anyway; and really $10-13 per book isn't too bad).
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However, I am not a PFS GM or player. I know PFS GMs have to be pretty adherent to what is and isn't allowed in the Society, and I would not expect or ask them to be otherwise.
Oh I agree. I wouldn't "demand" anything. I'm just curious if I should even bother because it will effect how I write my stories since certain skills will just be off the table. I know it sounds "unbelievable" but it really is for role playing purposes only and isn't geared towards giving me more power. There's no point to that since that takes the fun out of the puzzle.
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We're required to observe the rules, but I generally don't go down character sheets and demand a hardcover copy or for them to pull up their accounts on paizo.com to show they own the book. I have a feeling under 20% of the people who play alt-Aasimirs own the otherwise-totally-useless-and-badly-written Blood of Angels book.
When I do audit is for major events (retirements is the only example) I will do the book check and full character sheet scan; but I don't have time to do that every time. With that said, you are knowingly breaking the rules; so if you're going to do it, at least try to "make good" and buy the books later as you can afford them (and they're solid reads anyway; and really $10-13 per book isn't too bad).
Well that's actually the deal; these don't come out of "books" they come out "primers", A.K.A. the monthly magazine. I wouldn't mind buying the books, because they have content, but the primers have something akin to one page of useful items. For instance the ISP is 32 glorious pages long and has Cosmopolitan in it. It is not found in any "book". That's why I'm sketchy on doing so because the subscription doesn't cover back issues so it's literally $8 for character flavoring. It is why I'm asking here and being open about it because if the general reaction is "No" I'll just never use the trait and life will go on.
The books however I agree with because they are actually long and worthwhile.
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Well that's actually the deal; these don't come out of "books" they come out "primers", A.K.A. the monthly magazine. I wouldn't mind buying the books, because they have content, but the primers have something akin to one page of useful items. For instance the ISP is 32 glorious pages long and has Cosmopolitan in it. It is not found in any "book". That's why I'm sketchy on doing so because the subscription doesn't cover back issues so it's literally $8 for character flavoring. It is why I'm asking here and being open about it because if the general reaction is "No" I'll just never use the trait and life will go on.
The books however I agree with because they are actually long and worthwhile.
Are you talking about the soft cover player companion books? Those are still books, with production costs.
My thought is, if you think the 6 cents per hour of a single character's life is too expensive for that feat, then use something cheaper instead.
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And for what it's worth, most traits (including Cosmopolotin) are reprinted in the Advanced Player's Guide, which is probably the cheapest source of lots of good additions that you can buy :).
I have no idea when they do updates to the APG, etc. but it is not in the current one. Only the DEP and ISP have the trait. So it may be true in the future but at current it is not so. :(
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Well that's actually the deal; these don't come out of "books" they come out "primers", A.K.A. the monthly magazine. I wouldn't mind buying the books, because they have content, but the primers have something akin to one page of useful items. For instance the ISP is 32 glorious pages long and has Cosmopolitan in it. It is not found in any "book". That's why I'm sketchy on doing so because the subscription doesn't cover back issues so it's literally $8 for character flavoring. It is why I'm asking here and being open about it because if the general reaction is "No" I'll just never use the trait and life will go on.
The books however I agree with because they are actually long and worthwhile.
Are you talking about the soft cover player companion books? Those are still books, with production costs.
My thought is, if you think the 6 cents per hour of a single character's life is too expensive for that feat, then use something cheaper instead.
If Linguistics was worth more than flavor I would agree. For instance if you were talking about Ioun Stones, even if you only wanted one, then SoS is very well worth it because it has heavy utility. If it was Infernal Healing, agreed. If it was anything that wasn't just simply passive: Agreed. But it's not.
Linguistics is the only skill, literally, that cannot be covered by a core book source. It's the only one. You cannot even increase linguistic ability via trait or feat without being of a specific race OR having Cosmopolitan.
Actually that's why I asked to begin with; the APG and all the core books and all the traits in the entire game don't do anything for linguistics for some strange reason. Boggles me.
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Well that's actually the deal; these don't come out of "books" they come out "primers", A.K.A. the monthly magazine. I wouldn't mind buying the books, because they have content, but the primers have something akin to one page of useful items. For instance the ISP is 32 glorious pages long and has Cosmopolitan in it. It is not found in any "book". That's why I'm sketchy on doing so because the subscription doesn't cover back issues so it's literally $8 for character flavoring. It is why I'm asking here and being open about it because if the general reaction is "No" I'll just never use the trait and life will go on.
The books however I agree with because they are actually long and worthwhile.
Are you talking about the soft cover player companion books? Those are still books, with production costs.
My thought is, if you think the 6 cents per hour of a single character's life is too expensive for that feat, then use something cheaper instead.
If Linguistics was worth more than flavor I would agree. For instance if you were talking about Ioun Stones, even if you only wanted one, then SoS is very well worth it because it has heavy utility. If it was Infernal Healing, agreed. If it was anything that wasn't just simply passive: Agreed. But it's not.
Linguistics is the only skill, literally, that cannot be covered by a core book source. It's the only one. You cannot even increase linguistic ability via trait or feat without being of a specific race OR having Cosmopolitan.
Actually that's why I asked to begin with; the APG and all the core books and all the traits in the entire game don't do anything for linguistics for some strange reason. Boggles me. There is no "cheaper alternative" because there is no alternative.
Let me add quickly that I am not "stricken" with a bitterness nor am I complaining in a particular manner. While I do not sympathize with any businesses ( therefore I will not yield to arguments of production costs, etc. ) I also do not believe that thievery is the best way to handle things. I have no problem NEVER using linguistics, it is nothing, again empty flavor, and the one feat I love is definitely nothing to cry about if I am not to use it as it does nothing that is particularly "stellar" nor is it integral; I just like it. The reason I add this is because I wish to pre-empt the "growing storm" that could be brewed with the argumentation that I am just whining about costs when in reality I am asking a question of value. You propose $.06 per hour but to understand how much that actually is given a scenario you must pay about a quarter a week in order to use Cosmopolitan. That doesn't sound bad as it's a dollar a month but if this is the case the rest of the books and any given feat has an equivalent cost of less than a penny every six months. Yes, that's right, less than a penny.
I do like economics but comparatively that would be outrageously expensive, and that's just in relation to your math, of which I've no idea the basis.
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Rules state, that if you take anything from any other book than the Core you MUST have that book. I carry the Ultimate Combat book, Ultimate MAgic, Inner Sea World Guild, Inner Sea Magic, Blood of Angels, Dragon Empires Primer with me for my Musetouched-Aasimar Lotus Geisha(Bard). Ultimate combat is purely for the Fighting Fan and that's it.
I do have a question that is similiar to this one though.
My fiance and I have been collecting the books since Pathfinders inception, we own....a....lot....of the books. We are also both in PFS. We only have one copy of the books each (hardcover). What happens if we sit at separate tables and need the same book? We are not about to go out and buy all the books again, we have put down a great deal of money over the last 3 years. Is there a solution?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I know what I'm asking is if I can ... "cheat". I know this. I wouldn't lie about it but I'm curious how you would rule.
I run games with the base assumption that no player at my table is cheating. Using a single feat from a book you don't own is technically cheating, as you put it.
I'd recommend changing the feat to a feat from a book you own or buying the book. In the whole scheme of things the cost to buy the book is well worth the hours you get to enjoy it. So it comes down to "how much you want that feat" and "whether or not you want Paizo to make more awesome books."
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Rules state, that if you take anything from any other book than the Core you MUST have that book. I carry the Ultimate Combat book, Ultimate MAgic, Inner Sea World Guild, Inner Sea Magic, Blood of Angels, Dragon Empires Primer with me for my Musetouched-Aasimar Lotus Geisha(Bard). Ultimate combat is purely for the Fighting Fan and that's it.
I do have a question that is similiar to this one though.
My fiance and I have been collecting the books since Pathfinders inception, we own....a....lot....of the books. We are also both in PFS. We only have one copy of the books each (hardcover). What happens if we sit at separate tables and need the same book? We are not about to go out and buy all the books again, we have put down a great deal of money over the last 3 years. Is there a solution?
You can make a copy of the sheets in question and then refer to your buddy for ownership. So you need a book AND a copy but your copied material doesn't need to be watermarked.
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I know what I'm asking is if I can ... "cheat". I know this. I wouldn't lie about it but I'm curious how you would rule.I run games with the base assumption that no player at my table is cheating. Using a single feat from a book you don't own is technically cheating, as you put it.
I'd recommend changing the feat to a feat from a book you own or buying the book. In the whole scheme of things the cost to buy the book is well worth the hours you get to enjoy it. So it comes down to "how much you want that feat" and "whether or not you want Paizo to make more awesome books."
The entire reason I'm on the fence about buying the book is because I'm truly new to Pathfinder as well as tabletop RPGs in general. I don't mind dropping a few bucks to try something out but it's a different story when I'm buying these kinds of resources. For instance if I was buying only hardcopies of the books I wouldn't care because at worst I don't like the game, find someone who does, and give them the books! World goes on. With watermarking pdfs this becomes less possible. You can't "pass down" the resources.
Actually that is the root of this problem. I found the feat / trait in the actual book, not on a website, but the book was a pdf on a friends Kindle Fire. Cool as that is it also means I can't use it unless he's under my butt! We laughed it off but ... Now that I think about it it's kind of unfunny. He doesn't use ISP / DEP at all ( since the trait is in both ) or FoB ( which houses my feat ) but he can't give 'em to me.
I really am hesitant to invest in something I can't pass along because while I may be new to this system I'm not new to trading games and card games of this nature such as Magic; no one watermarks the plains to you, or hassles you if such and such is "really yours", if it's in your deck you can use it and thus there's more of a borrowing system and a community effort. It's why I played for so long; I found something, he found something, we traded, we loaned, we borrowed, we swapped stories, etc.
I have a feeling what's going to happen, which is also why I'm hesitant, is I'm never going to find that community feeling with this game on these grounds. Who wants to share $8 tips? lol
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There's no universal answer to your question because it varies by GM, it varies by setting (convention vs. FLGS vs. home game), it varies by time (I may run a mini-audit if time permits, I probably won't if we're running late).
But when you ask how strict GMs are, you're putting them (us) in an awkward position. Because now you're basically saying "I'm breaking this rule, do you have a problem with that?" Either we say "yeah, no problem" and now we're breaking rules, too (the enforcement of the rules you broke) or we say "no" and we're the bad guys. Not fun either way.
If it's a matter of money, here's one suggestion, which may not be 100% legal but I think meets a fair compromise:
Pick your items/feats/traits for your character now, but don't use them until you have bought the source. So you can get your Linguistics trait, but until you've acquired the source, you consider yourself untrained (or trained, but without the bonuses from the trait).
This way, you don't have to sacrifice one-time decisions you'll wish you had later, and you'll be rules-legal when you do start using them.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I have a feeling what's going to happen, which is also why I'm hesitant, is I'm never going to find that community feeling with this game on these grounds.
So we're talking about you joining a worldwide shared campaign where you can meet new people, exchange stories, make new friends, etc; and the inability to use a book without buying it is enough to prevent you from feeling a sense of community?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'm not new to trading games and card games of this nature such as Magic; no one watermarks the plains to you, or hassles you if such and such is "really yours", if it's in your deck you can use it and thus there's more of a borrowing system and a community effort.
While Magic and RPG are totally different, I can call out a few points:
1) Everyone playing in the store need their own Sphinx Revelations. You can't photo copy a new one. Just in the same way everyone needs their own copy of a Pathfinder book.
2) If someone knows you are borrowing cards, most people WILL HARSHLY harass you. I've seen it happen so often that I would wager more than half of the magic players really don't like it when they have to buy cards and you get to borrow them.
So I don't think you understand how much alike the two games really are in regard to buying your own copy of each part you need.
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I have a feeling what's going to happen, which is also why I'm hesitant, is I'm never going to find that community feeling with this game on these grounds.So we're talking about you joining a worldwide shared campaign where you can meet new people, exchange stories, make new friends, etc; and the inability to use a book without buying it is enough to prevent you from feeling a sense of community?
"The Game". Yes, for the books are the game, and if you cannot share the game, then you cannot connect. Sure, you can be friendly, do not get wrong; I see two senses of community.
For instance I read your guide and that was a sense of community, you brought to light many new ideas in my mind, you showed me a little more than I had considered, and this was "The Game." You did this with the CRB so there was no pain to suffer as everyone will have the CRB to play the game. I commend you for it.
Then there is this type of community. You and I have no connection. No innate reasoning. No inherent love for one another. While you may make friends with many you and I are not part of the same community, we are just tied together by means of the same interest, the same game, so when it comes to these two types I must consider both when investing.
If there is A then there is at least a reason to invest the time and effort should you not be able to play with people you enjoy at all times. Progression with the group you do enjoy is universal so if I play one game at shop A with people I get along with but aren't terribly social with and one at shop B where people love me and I them, every week it allows me to love my character, love the game, and love some of the people.
If there is only B I am crippled. Let us say that I am friendly with all but never find a group I really connect with or really can fit into. They are fun as am I and we enjoy eachother within the game but outside the game and almost outside of character we could not care less if one of the others died except if it would prevent our inevitable weekly game.
I cannot do B alone and invest because the odds that A will occur, that one trades knowledge and resources and aids in character creation possibly suggesting options that, while great, cannot be used is far more likely than B, a guaranteed "clicking" with others. Because even if you play an MMO with millions and millions of people the odds that you will meet those who like you that you like are not dependent at all on the multitude but on the realistic exposure to others, which is only at best hundreds, if that in any given smaller area.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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For what it's worth, I think it would be a rare game day indeed that would turn you away if you didn't have the books, so long as the understanding was that it was your first few sessions and you were trying it out. The caveat there, of course, is that you'd be required to pick up the books if you decided to continue playing. A purchased PDF of the books would suffice.
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I'm not new to trading games and card games of this nature such as Magic; no one watermarks the plains to you, or hassles you if such and such is "really yours", if it's in your deck you can use it and thus there's more of a borrowing system and a community effort.While Magic and RPG are totally different, I can call out a few points:
1) Everyone playing in the store need their own Sphinx Revelations. You can't photo copy a new one. Just in the same way everyone needs their own copy of a Pathfinder book.
2) If someone knows you are borrowing cards, most people WILL HARSHLY harass you. I've seen it happen so often that I would wager more than half of the magic players really don't like it when they have to buy cards and you get to borrow them.
So I don't think you understand how much alike the two games really are in regard to buying your own copy of each part you need.
No, I agree, there are people who will judge you harshly and treat you poorly in all communities and walks of life in gaming. There are people who think people who share videogames are the scum of the Earth and look down upon those who go through systems like Gamefly and it's ilk. So it isn't even just physical media.
Yet the parallels are a bit different; everyone should own their own popularly used cards but let's say that you open a pack and get "dud X" whatever iti s, for a rare, and person next to you gets "dud Y" for them, you swap, you now have Gold Y and they Gold X. Trading is encouraged. Furthermore people do not "know" if the card is yours or not so when you do trade or share it is relatively not crass. It IS crass to do it IN the tournament. By all means shame them as I've seen such; it is pathetic, just buy a second copy of the card rather than refusing to play at the same time so that you can have the card in question. Yet at the same time, scolded or not, it isn't "illegal".
This doesn't translate to Pathfinder in the least. Owning a card that can be traded can cost a few dollars, for a set most rares are going to be something about $20, sure, and by no means is the game cheap, but if you tire of the rares or they become obsolete because you only complete in M:tG meta, you can sell them, you can give them away, you can dispose of them as you see fit.
This is not the case with Pathfinder. First, you cannot "acquire" pdfs, period, and the books, well they are 4x the cost so they are mini-investments on their own. To give up just three is to give away $120 dollars so to give up a real collection is to give away hundreds and hundreds of dollars. Furthermore because we can only compare the hardcopies to the rares in M:tG, that puts us at a real disadvantage. The cost is high, high enough to, since you did so, only be replicated by the most expensive elements of other games. That's a bad start.
As long as you have a genuine copy of the card you can play. Fine and fair. So long as you have a genuine copy of the book, you can play. Fine and fair. If you wish to give away the card, you may. Fine and fair. If you wish to attempt to give away a pdf, no, if you wish to give away a book, you may, fine and fair. Yet if you are to collect the books yourself why would you pay four times more for the privilege of giving it away?
Your parallels are, at best, obscure.
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For what it's worth, I think it would be a rare game day indeed that would turn you away if you didn't have the books, so long as the understanding was that it was your first few sessions and you were trying it out. The caveat there, of course, is that you'd be required to pick up the books if you decided to continue playing. A purchased PDF of the books would suffice.
To which I would not mind. If I did intend to continue to play I would gladly buy, and even subscribe no less, because I can see it in my future. I would integrate the game into me and myself into the game. I may indeed have to ask the GM about this in that light because I do admit my lack of decisiveness along with their no-sharing policy is the main "obstacle" for me.
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Unlike Magic cards, Pathfinder books do not become obsolete on a regular basis. Even if a new edition comes out (which is unlikely for quite some years), you could continue to play the current version with your books for years and years. There's also less need to trade between players when everyone can see what they're buying up front. Magic and other CCGs rely on artificial scarcity which creates a need to trade between players to create the deck you want. In Pathfinder and other RPGs, there is no artificial scarcity or randomness of what you get when you purchase something. If you purchase the Dragon Empires Primer you know exactly what you're going to get.
Sure, maybe you're only buying it for one trait or feat right now, but another character you create down the line might find something different out of the book that is useful.
I really don't get the community being tied to trading physical items. To me, a community is about the people and the shared experiences, not the ability to trade products between us.
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Unlike Magic cards, Pathfinder books do not become obsolete on a regular basis. Even if a new edition comes out (which is unlikely for quite some years), you could continue to play the current version with your books for years and years. There's also less need to trade between players when everyone can see what they're buying up front. Magic and other CCGs rely on artificial scarcity which creates a need to trade between players to create the deck you want. In Pathfinder and other RPGs, there is no artificial scarcity or randomness of what you get when you purchase something. If you purchase the Dragon Empires Primer you know exactly what you're going to get.
Sure, maybe you're only buying it for one trait or feat right now, but another character you create down the line might find something different out of the book that is useful.
I fear after looking through the books (in question) there really is nothing useful that is LEGAL in PFS. That's the trick; it isn't that it's all useless, it's that most of it is illegal for play already and therefore it is undermined. That's also yet another reason why I'm so hesitant. I know the current rules but they change frequently enough that what is good today may be illegal tomorrow, much like Magic. Albeit that's done in more functional rounds than "random choosing by a committee."
Still, I can see that. Point. It is valid in relation to the fact that it isn't random and it can be researched aforehand albeit buying the rare ( or buying the book for the trait ) to make something work requires more dedication than I currently have. Still, it is valid, and I respect that.
I really don't get the community being tied to trading physical items. To me, a community is about the people and the shared experiences, not the ability to trade products between us.
No, no it isn't the "trading of physical items" it is the ability to incorporate new elements into the gameplay of others. That's the difference. You want to give away a card because you think it would go GREAT in so-and-so's deck, go ahead, you want to do this for a pdf? Not a chance in hell. The fact that you can have that impact, that "I think this would go great with your cleric-based build" and make MORE than an empty suggestion is what I'm getting at.
You say "Why don't you have Channel Versatility ( or whatever it is, I can't remember )?" and your answer shouldn't be "Well, I totally know of it and totally know where it is and totally own the book and I don't even use it but you can't have it from me. Sorry." esp. when it's enforced externally. Now if you chose not to share, well, you're a dick but it's a choice; when you literally cannot share that is a bit different. There are a few books that I know very few people required for their builds, primers being one such type, that work for others and their characters and their means and mode of roleplay; it's also a question of mindset! Even if something is "awesome" for a Mage perhaps no matter what you will just never value that attribute and thus are stuck with it, for ever, in your repetoire unable to give it to someone who would use it. Esp. someone you know.
Shared resources are ALSO impossible. Now if you just watermark MORE than one account on the items I'd have no qualms because I could go half or so with my friends who play but don't play with me because we live miles apart and our gameshops are also miles apart and we work different schedules and it's just not practical. We play together but we also play apart. So how do we share? We don't. We pay double to play. Meh. It's just not rubbing me the right way because to start a game like that and have them, who introduced me, be unable to give me what they don't use is ... sacrilegious to the spirit of "Community".
Think of it as Gift Economics. Games are the FINAL stage for gift economics. Once that is gone, all is lost, because how often can you say "I don't want this book" and just give it away when it's not a book, it's a file? This is also part of my hunt to get away from videogaming in general because this is no different, in my opinion, than DLC problems and choking where the content of games and the allure was to give you something basic and then sell you a bunch of extras spread out over a huge product line. It's smart, businesswise, but it's a trap I can't yet allow myself to fall into.
Let's just say at current Paizo's Diplomacy checks are too low for my Sense Motive checks.
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I wish to digress to the original question. I don't want to argue. While my reasoning isn't whim alone it also doesn't answer my own question on how flexible a GM would be for a starter to just test various things on characters and the game in general. It would absolutely kill me to, before I confirm my own dedication to the cause, invest in it.
I think the one person who said that it is likely I will be allowed to do this is right. After all if I don't like it then my PFS character will rot away anyway and no one will care and Paizo is out no money. If it were prolonged, that's thievery, and I am wrong, no doubt. I will simply ask the GM if it can be test driven.
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Personally, if I have a new player in my PFS group, I allow a bit of a grace period for them to at least get a Core Rulebook; while I haven't had anyone test it yet, I have it at 3 scenarios (enough to get to level 2) as within my community that's just about a month of play and I would consider that most people would be able to scrounge up $10 for the PDF at the very least over that period. Even then, I'd have 'em use a pregen for their play until they got around to getting the CRB to create a character.
Now for other resources... outside of the CRB, if you don't have it (legal PDF or physical copy), then you can't use it. There are threads dedicated as to why, but to put it bluntly, that's the rule and Paizo's stance. As for you wanting to 'test various things on characters and the game in general', PFS is may not be the best place for that. While the variety of scenarios and the PFS scenario designs may allow for interesting field areas for your 'testing', the above rule still stands. Can't let you 'test' something if you don't own the source. The only suggestion I can make is that there are a number of free scenarios out there that you can download and play. You can check them out here as well as here. As long as you don't report the games, then have fun messing around with them to your whim (treat the PFS scenario as a home game thing instead).
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That is a fair ruling Higaki. I know there are many reasons and I didn't intend to sound as if I were using it for a testing field as that would be easily abused. I actually can completely understand why both sides, myself and my "opposition" ( don't take that literally ) want what we want. Paizo gets to maintain control over the game and control fairness amongst other elements. I simply want a trait that I believe should not be $8 to acquire and am holding out on the economic basis of fairness and price viability. Unfortunately there is no "medium"; if Paizo created a book of all the traits and charged $15 for it I would buy it, hands down, of all Feats for $30, the same, no problem.
I see it as a "waste" and as totalitarian behavior (because it cannot be shared)and Paizo sees it as a "profit" as well as "moderation". I respect, though I disagree, with this outlook but again if I were just capable of the simplest of things such as watermarking a book twice, once for myself, and once for a friend, and using digital copies with both watermarks from Paizo I would offer no resistance. I think a group of gamers investing in the books is fine as it gives them the moderation they desire but this also cuts into their profits so then beyond that point we have outright greed.
As a businessman I agree that they can do what they wish. As a gamer I feel they are constricting people unfairly. I am torn.
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<snip> While my reasoning isn't whim alone it also doesn't answer my own question on how flexible a GM would be for a starter to just test various things on characters and the game in general. <snip>If you ask a PFS judge if you can do something that is against the rules then the answer that I would expect is 'No you can not do something against the rules'.
Economic necessities can be harsh. Something that you can not afford to buy, Paizo can not afford to give away.
Since you can rebuild a character at any point prior to playing their first game at second level, I would suggest making a build that is very close to what you want and seeing how much your missing option comes up. When/where/how would it have made a difference. This will allow somewhat of a test drive and should give you enough information to know if you want to eventually buy the book that would allow you that option.
I am already well aware I can live without the feat and the trait. It isn't so much about playtesting as it is character creation. Let me express first and foremost that most of the book that Paizo would be "giving away" was banned by Paizo itself from PFS. You can't lose what you've discarded. That said being one of the four or five traits in a book I dare say it's a loss; now from the vantage point of a company it turns into "If you let one ..." but here I consider myself more noble than my ilk because I'm being open about it, and by all means no means no, whatever but I am more than aware of a number of people who just say nothing and smile. From items they can't legally have to pretty much playing with a specific person or GM buddy who will let them carry their stuff into the next scenario so it can't be taken there's ways around the rules but that just isn't my way.
I don't want sympathy, I want reason, particularly because it is by far unreasonable to invest in something you cannot use or has limited use that could be further limited at any time by a group you do not have control over on whim. No company would do this. Why would an individual?
Mind you that this isn't an economics thread. You said "no" and that's expected.
