Changing Spell Type Vs Changing Spell Descriptor

[Mars Roma]

After much searching I am still having a hard time finding anything other than back and forth "Rulings" among various Threads. This is regarding the Sorcerer Elemental(Any) Bloodline Arcana: "Whenever you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you can change the type of damage to match the type of your bloodline. This also changes the spell's type to match the type of your bloodline." and whether or not any relative Metamagic Feats such as Rime Spell, Burning Spell, Etc. can be applied to Spells affected by the above Bloodline Arcana.

The ONLY reason I raise this question is because one can argue that because the Bloodline Arcana states Type change not a Descriptor change like it does in the Marid Bloodline Arcana: "Whenever you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you can change the type of damage to cold. This also changes the spell's descriptors to match this energy type."

Thusly Confusion ensues. Though honestly it seems that my answer just might be. "Well... just pick Marid so no one can argue about it". I'd like for that to just be it, but I would like to know if I have more flexibility than that. Especially whenever(if ever) I get one of the Elemental Races(specifically Undine).

I apologize if there was an official ruling on this already but I have had a hard time finding it.

[Zhayne]

If a spell deals damage of an energy type or types, it has that or those descriptors. This is both simple and logical.

[Mars Roma]

Zhayne wrote:

If a spell deals damage of an energy type or types, it has that or those descriptors. This is both simple and logical.

and yet it wont stop the local D*ck head PFS GM from saying "it says Type NOT Descriptor"

THUSLY making my ENTIRE BUILD useless.

[Mojorat]

uhh, is he saying that a cold fireball isnt a cold spell? (even if it still technically lights things on fire)

[Mars Roma]

Mojorat wrote:

uhh, is he saying that a cold fireball isnt a cold spell? (even if it still technically lights things on fire)

Hahaha, Especially With the Marid Bloodline you "burn" things with Cold. Good stuff.

See this is one of the Arguments they can make. As far as the Elemental Bloodline goes. But Marid? Does it Change the Mechanics as well? does it freeze things now much like the Freezing Sphere Spell?

[Mojorat]

Well, ive never run into your problem with a Dm. However, i think in general changing the descriptor doesnt remove the side effects of a spell. which is why i made the joke about he fireball. Which means if the flaming sphere changes to a Flaming sphere cold it still should light things on fire.

[Malag]

I believe I'v read somewhere that changing the energy type changes the descriptor also, but in doing so it might cause also the effects of some spells to change entirely. A spell that is specifically based around fire damage might change completely. I can't think of an valid example at the moment tho and this is only something that I remember faintly.

[Robert A Matthews]

What I would do is ask your GM exactly what he interprets it to mean when it says it "changes the type of the spell", if it doesn't change the descriptor then what does it change? There's nothing else that it would make sense to change. If a spell's type is cold, what would possibly lead anyone to believe that it doesn't change to the cold descriptor? The words "type" and "descriptor" are pretty synonymous when you think about it. It is obvious that the bloodline is intended to change the descriptor. There is similar language in the summon monster spell. If the following passage does not mean that the spell gains the "evil" descriptor when summoning an evil creature then what else could it possibly mean?

Summon Monster wrote:

When you use a summoning spell to summon a creature with an alignment or elemental subtype, it is a spell of that type.

[Metux]

I am a big fan of sorcerers and particularly the crossblooded.

I also had hard times with this descriptor and type issue.

For example:

prd Core wrote:

Elemental Spell (Metamagic)

You can manipulate the elemental nature of your spells.

Benefit: Choose one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You may replace a spell's normal damage with that energy type or split the spell's damage, so that half is of that energy type and half is of its normal type. An elemental spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you must choose a different energy type.

Imagine im using a scorched ray with elemental spell(cold), i can do a 4D6 cold damage, or 2D6 cold and 2D6 fire.

But this feat never says that it changes the spell's descriptor. And if it does, when you do half fire and half cold for example, would you be able to choose which descriptor?

And there is the Rime spell:

prd UM wrote:

Rime Spell (Metamagic)

Creatures damaged by your spells with the cold descriptor become entangled.

Benefit: The frost of your cold spell clings to the target, impeding it for a short time. A rime spell causes creatures that takes cold damage from the spell to become entangled for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell.

This feat only affects spells with the cold descriptor. A rime spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

Its specificaly said that rime spell needs a cold descriptor AND cold damage. So you can't use a scorched+elemental spell(cold) together with rime spell. Because you only changed the energy type, not the descriptor.

In conclusion i ended to use:
energy type = the spell's elemental damage
spell's type and descriptor = the spell's elemental type/descriptor

Few abilities change the elemantal type/descriptor, and few abilities change the energy type. And lesser ones change both.

[Mars Roma]

Quote Metux:

Metux wrote:

I am a big fan of sorcerers and particularly the crossblooded.

I also had hard times with this descriptor and type issue.

For example:

prd Core wrote:

Elemental Spell (Metamagic)

You can manipulate the elemental nature of your spells.

Benefit: Choose one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You may replace a spell's normal damage with that energy type or split the spell's damage, so that half is of that energy type and half is of its normal type. An elemental spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you must choose a different energy type.

Imagine im using a scorched ray with elemental spell(cold), i can do a 4D6 cold damage, or 2D6 cold and 2D6 fire.

But this feat never says that it changes the spell's descriptor. And if it does, when you do half fire and half cold for example, would you be able to choose which descriptor?

And there is the Rime spell:

prd UM wrote:

Rime Spell (Metamagic)

Creatures damaged by your spells with the cold descriptor become entangled.

Benefit: The frost of your cold spell clings to the target, impeding it for a short time. A rime spell causes creatures that takes cold damage from the spell to become entangled for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell.

This feat only affects spells with the cold descriptor. A rime spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

Its specificaly said that rime spell needs a cold descriptor AND cold damage. So you can't use a scorched+elemental spell(cold) together with rime spell. Because you only changed the energy type, not the descriptor.

In conclusion i ended to use:
energy type = the spell's elemental damage
spell's type and descriptor = the spell's elemental type/descriptor

Few abilities change the elemantal type/descriptor, and few abilities change the energy type. And lesser ones change both.

This, is actually very helpful. You make a very Interesting point on the Spell Type change difference. I could use this as an argument against the GM. In truth I haven't yet had this argument with the GM I might have this problem with('might' pfft I WILL have this problem). I'm just gathering ammo to use against them when the time comes for me to present this character.

I'm building an Undine Sorcerer with the Rime Spell as the Staple and the Elemental Bloodline is Imperative to achieve this goal. Thing is I cant just do the 1st level rebuild rules If he rules against my build. when i first play this Character they will be level 5. Thanks to GM Credits and Pregen Credits as well. So I NEED to make sure I have my Information straight or I'm going to have to pay for some retrain's.

I also need to determine if Undines gain their 'Water Affinity' for the WildBlooded Primal(Cold) Bloodline. Cuz like you said Crossblooded is pretty cool. but painful.

[Metux]

Mars Roma wrote:

I also need to determine if Undines gain their 'Water Affinity' for the WildBlooded Primal(Cold) Bloodline. Cuz like you said Crossblooded is pretty cool. but painful.

Imo, wildblooded only modifies a bloodline, its not a "new" bloodline, but it's like an alternate bloodline.

Because even if you take Primal(Cold), you still get every other abilities from Elemental bloodline.

I would answer yes to your question and i will use this rule if I master a game.

Just another weird example, when you look at this feat:

Quote:

Source Cities of Golarion pg. 62

You were born with the power to drive ice and snow as others drive their slaves.

Prerequisites: Sorcerer, Irrisen affinity, may only be taken at first level.

Benefit: All of your spells with the cold descriptor are cast at +1 caster level. Any spell with a different energy descriptor is cast at –1 caster level. Three times per day you may alter a spell you cast to deal cold damage instead of its normal damage; your +1 caster level for this feat applies to this variant casting.

- You get +1 CL with cold descriptor spells

- You can change ANY NORMAL DAMAGE SPELL (even magic missile) to deal Cold damage 3 times per day.
- You also benefit the +1 CL, if you use change the spell damage to cold damage. But this doesn't mean that it changes the descriptor too.

It would be so easier to say that 3 times per day you can change the energy type to cold, and the descriptor to cold.

With this feat, you can use a Frost magic missile with +1CL from the feat, BUT since it doesnt change the descriptor, you won't be able to use Rime spell!
That's b***s*** imo...

If i master a game again, i would allow any energy type modification to change the descriptor too, and vice versa.

[Ravingdork]

I'm with the "change type = descriptor change" group of thinkers.

The rules are rare consistent in their wording. Doesn't necessarily mean that the RAI aren't the same between abilities.

[Claxon]

I agree that type and descriptor are synonymous.

However, I have a whole different issue with Rime Spell and builds built around it and have banned it from my table along with dazing and persistent.

[Metux]

Claxon wrote:

I agree that type and descriptor are synonymous.

However, I have a whole different issue with Rime Spell and builds built around it and have banned it from my table along with dazing and persistent.

Can i ask why? Im curious now, and it seems lame to do that.

[Claxon]

Metux wrote:

Claxon wrote:

I agree that type and descriptor are synonymous.

However, I have a whole different issue with Rime Spell and builds built around it and have banned it from my table along with dazing and persistent.

Can i ask why? Im curious now, and it seems lame to do that.

Casters are already the master of the universe and more powerful than martials can ever hope to be. By baning the specific metamagics you remove the most powerful and broken options from the playing field helping to bridge the gap just a little bit.

For Rime Spell specifically the target becomes entangled if they take any cold damage for a number of rounds equal to spell level. There are a myriad of ways to make spells into cold type and most will do at least 1 point of damage unless the creature has cold resistance (since any save would normally be for hald). Combined with the myriad of ways to negate spell level increase for metamagic and you have an easy way to inflict the entangled status on creatuers every round, which is just too good IMO.

But none of this is really the point of this thread.

[Mars Roma]

Thank you everyone, After reading all your guys advice and page 212 of CRB. I have determined that considering the CRB has almost no mention to Spell Type. That the [Descriptor] explanation in the book is an oversight in the proper wording for the Elemental Bloodline and is in fact meant to be the Spell Type(or vise versa).

Or Spell Type can only refer to the Spell Descriptor. As a "Spell's type" is only mentioned four times in the CRB. In reference to Summon Monster/Natures ally I, the Elemental Sorcerer Bloodline, and Aiming a Spell. OF WHICH mentions Spell's Type and Spell Description right after the other.

[Malag]

@Claxon
A bit offtopic also, but I noticed that main problem are the traits that reduce the adjusted level of spell, not the metamagic feats themselves.