Help me connect some dots: The Society not covering expenses.

[Eric Saxon]

Welcome to Pathfinder Society, its like the army. You join up and you serve the Decemvirate. We pay for your gear, you food, your lodgings and your training, in return you get access to our lawyers, our accountants, our diplomats and our information brokers, and all the loot you can grab after we take our first pick.

Don't like it, go join the Aspis Consortium.

Welcome to the Aspis Consortium. We need someone to retrieve a jewel in a deep, dark, dangerous dungeon. If you get it for us we'll pay you 2,000gp.

Don't like it, don't take the job. You like it, hope you got your own gear and your own training. And if you're level 2 and meet a 20HD dragon, well... you took the job that was offered to everyone. Not our fault if you were not properly prepared. Oh, you couldn't find the right team to go with you, sorry, again not our problem.

Don't like it, go join the Pathfinder Society. (Then they slit your throat.)

REALITY CHECK
You work for PFS and come home with your loot, PFS gets its cut and you sleep well at night and no one cuts your throat for it and no one sends you on a dragon hunt at lvl. 1. And when you commit a crime and often times you do (if I know players, they all commit some crime in their PC's career) you go scot free. sp? You don't ever hear the PFS charging you for the information brokers that are on their payroll, do you? No, you sure?

Yeah, you serve the Ten but look at the alternative. When is the last time you had to pay for your own food, lodgings, training, education, starting equipment, access to some serious magic firepower? Never you say. You can cough up a few gp to get the jobs done, that you've been asked to do.

[Todd Morgan]

Forgive me, but in your original post you say you are eager to be disabused of this notion yet argue against every option you've been given. If I may ask, is there an answer that will satisfy you or are you trying to get the system changed through a rhetorical Q&A session?

[N N 959]

Todd Morgan wrote:

Forgive me, but in your original post you say you are eager to be disabused of this notion yet argue against every option you've been given.

Except I haven't. Why don't you actually take the time to read my responses before making false accusations. In fact, in one post I offer my own explanations for how this can make sense.

To answer the heart of your post, you seem to think that anyone simply offering an answer is sufficient, no matter how feeble or contradictory the response. Posters can't even agree on the hierarchical relationship between the members and the Society. Sorry if I don't find a comparison to playing a game and risking one's life as a compelling example.

The fact is, and it is a fact, Walter Shepard, a Five Star VC stated this...

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Until Season 5, I would have agreed with you.

Season 5 has been out all of a month or so? So when your only contribution to the discussion is trying to pretend I'm being unreasonable as opposed to acknowledging I've made a legitimate observation suggests I'm not the one who is discussing the matter in bad faith.

[N N 959]

Cameron Ackerman wrote:

The amount of gold usually necessary to bribe somebody in a scenario is negligible.

This isn't about the amount of gold. Ignoring the fact that I just disagree that 50 to 100gp is negligible at level 3, this is about the roleplay and the psychological impact it has on me, and apparently others.

Quote:

and the cost is circumventable by PCs with high diplomacy or intimidate skills.

And yet, I made a 27 on my Intimidate check in a 3-4 mission and I'm still expected to pay 125gp to talk to X. So are you willing to accept that some scenarios don't actually allow you to circumvent it outside of resorting to combat?

Quote:

But for logic in game, incurring additional cost than expected because of an inability to come to an agreement with an NPC without paying them money is something that I would say the society has a right to deny reimbursement as it is not "absolutely required" for the completion of the mission and could have been avoidable in many cases.

Except when it is "absolutely required" by the mission to advance the story. I'm not saying his happens every mission. Maybe less than 5 times across 30 some scenarios.

Quote:

This may seem illogical, but perhaps marking it up to a "cultural" matter would provide some sort of justification. Consider that the society does foot the bill for travel expenses.

If it's a cultural matter, then let that be born out in the roleplay of the VC's. Let there be some roleplay justification for why the Society can foot any travel expenses to send you where you need to go, but won't give you gold if you explain to the VC it's going to take real coin to advance the VC's interests.

Quote:

It's all I've got. Frankly I don't really see a problem.

Thanks for making a good faith effort. There are lots of RP things that I don't see a problem with that others do...the call for a change in Andoran leadership is an example...and my ranger is a member of that faction. But I know I'm not the only player to play his first mission and ask the VC if they've got any resources to help ensure the success of the mission he/she wants done and then shook my head at the anticipated, "Nope."

I think that problem is pretty easy to solve going forward and backward without substantively changing the mission difficulty. Let the GM pull a couple of items from the monsters and offer to the players if they can persuade the VC. The Guide already authorizes the relocation of treasure when monsters/obstacles are creatively bypassed.

[N N 959]

Eric Saxon wrote:

When is the last time you had to pay for your own food, lodgings, training, education, starting equipment, access to some serious magic firepower? Never you say. You can cough up a few gp to get the jobs done, that you've been asked to do.

Once again, thanks for making a good faith post. Psychologically, though, I can't say this is compelling. My RL job provides me with way more than the Society and they never expect me to pay for things specific to the job out of my own pocket. Everywhere I've worked, if I take an employee out to lunch to show appreciation, the company reimburses me. None of these jobs require that I risk my life.

The other general problem I have is that in all D&D based RPG's that I've played, food and lodging are just not factor in the game. Sure, most GMs pinch your brand-new-fresh-off-the-boat character with paying for his half chicken and pint of ale 5sp meal, and then quickly nobody bothers. In fact, the PFS-OP would shoot itself in the foot trying to track that stuff. So it's hard to sell that as a basis for my risking my life at some VC's beck and call.

Magic items are paid for by the PC. The Society isn't giving you that. PP are redeemed against your Faction. And as far as granting access, ever since 3.5 (and maybe before?), you could go to Magic Mart and buy anything your town/city could produce. If this was 1st Edition, though, I'd agree about access to Magic Items. In fact, I'd be expecting to pay dues.

The idea that food and lodging and travel costs are this huge benefit worthy of such devotion isn't compelling. I think there needs to be more emphasis put on the ideology of the Society as aligning with the PC's. As I said before, I'd like to see more of an indoctrination of PC's at lower levels.

[Anonymous Visitor 163 576]

N N 959 wrote:

Funky Badger wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

Whether as an employee or a volunteer, no organization expects its members to spend money out of their own pocket when conducting the entity's business.

Maybe not in your world.

I've worked for Non-profits, profits, small, and huge corporations. Not once was I expected to pay the cost of something without knowing I'd get fully reimbursed. It's like the CIA/FBI/Armed forces telling its undercover agents they have to purchase those illicit materials from their own paycheck.

Which historically has a lot of precedent. Napoleon's armies were fed one thing, bread. Anything else, they were expected to find themselves. There's a reason the peasants hated them.

"That's my livestock!"
"Mon ami, we have the guns"
"(Grumbling) Vive la France"

Roman provincial governors were paid nothing at all. If you couldn't figure out how to make money with a executive authority and a legion of troops, you didn't deserve to be governor.

[kinevon]

If you use your own car to go to work, drive around for work, and then drive home, you do know that you aren't getting reimbursed for all the driving you did.

You get reimbursed for the driving you did for work once you reach the work location, until you reach the work location again, so the trips from home to work, and work to home, won't be reimbursed.

If you want something above-and-beyond, you won't get reimbursed for it.

Last time I travelled for business, the business told me, outright, here is your budget for room, here is your budget for meals. Anything else, or over the budgeted amount, is your responsibility. Have a nice trip.

Also, there are several places in earlier season scenarios where the Society pays for expenses.

Free boat ride? Yes.
Provide horses, mules or ponies to ride? Yes.
Provide a teleport to your destination? Yes.

[redward]

N N 959 wrote:

My RL job provides me with way more than the Society and they never expect me to pay for things specific to the job out of my own pocket. Everywhere I've worked, if I take an employee out to lunch to show appreciation, the company reimburses me. None of these jobs require that I risk my life.

The Society isn't an employer. At least not to its field operatives, and not in the traditional sense. If you have a Day Job, then you've got a job. Otherwise your income is based entirely on doing missions for the Society "on spec":

Quote:

[T]he Pathfinder Society [is] a loose-knit group of explorers, scholars, and adventurers who span the globe and band together in search of lost knowledge and ancient treasures...

...Their subordinates, called venture-captains, coordinate independent teams of Pathfinders, tipping them off to ancient legends, passing along newly discovered maps, and supporting their efforts in the field. Venture-captains provide an ideal “in-world” source of adventure leads...

They give us a job to do: recover this artifact, protect this guy, kill that guy. We get to keep anything we find (or, more accurately, we get to keep our share of the gold value of anything we find and "buy" back whatever we want from those items).

They might pay for passage there, but they don't always. Incidental expenses are often up to you. If that doesn't work for you, your membership within the Society is entirely voluntary, as is your presence on any given mission. Don't think you'll net a profit? Sounds too dangerous? Decline it.

N N 959 wrote:

Do a better job of indoctrinating 1st level PC's to the Society mindset. There is no ceremony, there is no oath, there is no event which aligns my interest as a PC with that of the Society. Yes, I realize that PCs can't all start with the same mission.

I actually agree with you on this, and have suggested in another thread that whatever ends up replacing First Steps give a very thorough grounding in what the Society is all about.

N N 959 wrote:

I think there needs to be more emphasis put on the ideology of the Society as aligning with the PC's.

But this is where I disagree. It's not the Society's job to find a reason for you to want to be there. Your character, unless they are one of the rare field commissions, applied and trained for years to become a Pathfinder:

Quote:

Prospective Pathfinders must first prove themselves via a number of tasks and tests designed to cull the herd and ensure that only the most driven and capable ever achieve the title of Pathfinder.

In order to even begin the application process, those who seek to join the Society must
present themselves at the gates of the Grand Lodge of Absalom...

In order to make the jump to full Pathfinder status, all initiates must pass a final test known as Confirmation. This is always taken by the end of the third year of training...

So one must assume your character has his or her own reasons for going through all that.

[N N 959]

redward wrote:

The Society isn't an employer.

Let me start by saying thanks for offering a good faith response.

Clearly there is some confusion among the players about the arrangement between member and org. This is something PFS authors should make an effort to clear up.

Quote:

Otherwise your income is based entirely on doing missions for the Society "on spec"

I'll disagree here. I haven't read anything in the scenarios or background info (though that's not saying much) that members are taking missions as part of speculator mentality. Members aren't portrayed as claim jumpers or treasure hunters out for their own profit. Frequently, the missions are about retrieving items for the preservation of posterity, not to sell them for a profit. Other missions are essentially payment in-kind for access to rare items.

Quote:

[T]he Pathfinder Society [is] a loose-knit group of explorers, scholars, and adventurers who span the globe and band together in search of lost knowledge and ancient treasures...

...Their subordinates, called venture-captains, coordinate independent teams of Pathfinders, tipping them off to ancient legends, passing along newly discovered maps, and supporting their efforts in the field. Venture-captains provide an ideal “in-world” source of adventure leads...

Thank you for providing that quote. Let me point out that the several missions give me the impression that the Society clearly has political agendas and as I understand it, has recently volunteered its members as soldiers in exchange for preferential treatment. So in-game, this concept of "explorers and scholars" seems to be lost in translation when I'm asked to act as an ambassador at a fancy wedding and I'm not even given formal Pathfinder uniform I can wear.

Quote:

...and supporting their efforts in the field...

And this is the part that is sorely lacking from my perspective. People talk about "travel expenses." Really? What about when my missions are in Absalom and I go no where? I honestly would have no problem with the concept of paying travel expenses. VC says, "Hey, I hear there are some digs in Riddleport, you might want to go check it out." But the missions are are presented as such:

"...all Pathfinders are required to volunteer some of their time"

“I need you to track down these x

"Sheila Heidmarch has given you a charge: eliminate the x..

And so on. This doesn't come across as giving me a tip on something I might be interested in exploring, it's a constant stream of marching orders and I honestly feel more like a soldier than an adventurer. Except I'm not given any resources to accomplish these myriad tasks. If the Society wants me to eliminate X I'd expect to be given Y to accomplish that task. Again, maybe there are lots of missions that do this and I have miraculously avoided them all, so please educate me if I'm ignorant on this.

Quote:

Don't think you'll net a profit? Sounds too dangerous? Decline it.

While that sounds like a legitimate choice, it's not. The point of PFS-OP to get people to play the game, not punish them for failing to identify unsafe risk. The game isn't based on a paradigm of individuals assessing the risk of failure and declining missions. In real life, you'd never send a group out without some type of formal healer. I played D&D Online and players would wait for an hour for a cleric. Teams were hand picked and if the right classes/builds didn't show up, players would simply not attempt a dungeon...and that is without and permanent death! Seriously. I saw the exact same thing in City of Heroes when it came to Trial and Tasks Forces.

In PFS-OP you gotta go with whatever/whoever shows up, no matter the competency or preparedness of the character. And this is with character lives literally at stake at low levels. Come on. That's so implausible it's laughable. No RL organization would send a random bunch of specialized skills to go do some life threatening job with no concept of the individual skills of said character. So it's really disingenuous to suggest that characters have an in-game choice. More to the point, the scenarios are not written with the intent of giving the characters a choice. There is no in-game mechanic which allows characters to dial down the risk they are willing to take.

Let's be clear. OOC, the game is what it is. And despite my observations, I'm not trying to instigate any change to the in-game agendas of the Ten, or ask the authors to give us a choice of missions. I'm asking for some compelling rational for why the paradigm makes any logical sense. And in the absence of that, I'm asking the authors to address these issues from a roleplaying perspective.

Quote:

NN959 wrote:

I think there needs to be more emphasis put on the ideology of the Society as aligning with the PC's.

But this is where I disagree. It's not the Society's job to find a reason for you to want to be there. Your character, unless they are one of the rare field commissions, applied and trained for years to become a Pathfinder:

***
So one must assume your character has his or her own reasons for going through all that.

My statement probably wasn't worded perfectly. I'm trying to convey the need for the player to be able to develop some sense of subscribing to the Society's ethos. As such I'd actually argue that you are agreeing with me. The way the game is introduced to first time players who start with some random scenario, it feels like one is given a field commission. My first character's first mission was Voices in the Void. As a player, I had no concept of having spent three years earning the right to be a member.

While it should be true that my character has some real reason for joining the Society, as a player I'm simply looking to play Pathfinder. I don't play Pathfinder because I wanted to join the Society, I joined PFS-OP because I wanted to play Pathfinder in an OP format. So the idea that my first character concept includes some ideological alignment with the Society doesn't really work. PFS-OP represents a chance to play Pathfinder on a consistent basis. It's not like players have an option to join the Aspis Consortium or some other organization and chose the Society after reading it's by-laws.

Quote:

...and have suggested in another thread that whatever ends up replacing First Steps give a very thorough grounding in what the Society is all about.

I would take it a step further. Ideally, you'd want the characters presented with a set of choices which qualifies or disqualifies them for membership. That First Step series should create a sense of commitment and devotion to the Society's goals. So that yeah, I'm willing to do whatever it takes to further the Society's goals.

Caveat: writing this response late at night, so not sure if it is entirely coherent.

Season 5 Spoiler:

As a nod to Walter, let me acknowledge that in my first Season 5 scenario, I was pleasantly surprised that we were provided with horses and some potions and access to cold iron weapons as part of the mission support. Maybe PFS is way ahead of me?

[KestlerGunner]

Join the Aspis Consortium and your days of boot-strapped hiking, cheap Venture Captains, gruel for supper, supplying your own healing will be LONG GONE. Join Aspis today and you'll get the Gold Credit Card! Good for bribes! Good for 5-star-inns! Good for long lunches at the Golden Serpent! Why SAVE the world when you can... ENJOY it? Sarah the halfling rogue made 400 gold pieces FROM HOME! Hear her story at AspisOpportunities.com! Join the Aspis Consortium TODAY!

Disclaimer: Aspis Consortium agents will need to pay off debt accrued at an interest rate of 55% per week. Failure to pay will result in removal of limbs or being recruited as a Golden League light infantryman. The Aspis Consortium makes no claim pertaining to rumours of agents going to jail for a very, very long time. Please consult professional advice before deciding whether the Aspis Consortium is right for you.

[Madclaw]

Not sure if this has been brought up yet but many pathfinders are trained and housed by the Society. Reading the primer details that most members are taken in and given years of training before being sent out on missions. Plus, you get free food and a roof over your head at any lodge. Yes, you don't have to live in the lodge and it may not be the best accommodations. But it's better than being a literal murder hobo. In addition the society pays for travel expenses and provides access to a wealth of information, libraries, and funding for research. Yes, we don't see that directly, but the fluff states that the Society does this. It's a great avenue for scholars to pursue. Next to limitless resources, funding for research, and staff. So, really it's a nice gig.

[Netopalis]

NN, I think that you are probably misunderstanding things a bit. The Society is somewhat modeled after the Royal Geographical Society of London during its expedition period. In that time, explorers would recruit other members, get advice and generally use resources from the Society, but were expected to fund their own missions. This approach was heavily borrowed from in the graphic novel The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which seems to be another source upon which the Society is built.

Don't think of the Society as an employer, because it's not. It's a club.

[godsDMit]

N N 959 wrote:

Seth Gipson wrote:

Can you name me any situations (feel free to include spoilers) in any scenarios where the ONLY option you have as the player is to bribe your way past the encounter AND you have to pay for the bribe out of your pocket?

Sewer Dragons seems like one. But I'd have to read the scenario. I recall in FS3 having to pay someone to ferry us across to the island. Perhaps the opening scene in Quest for Perfection III? There have been others, but I can't think of what they are and I'd have to actually (re)read them to know for certain.

Obviously, we're always given the option to fight.

I hope I am wrong, btw.

For Sewer Dragons, I assume you mean the 'Find this guy' part at the beginning?

You beat me to the punch when you said you always have the option to fight, which was going to be my response for Sewer Dragons. I cant rightly speak about FS3 since I havent run it in a long time, but the last time I played it I dont remember actually paying out any gold for a ferry. Maybe Im wrong there.

The option to fight is the key here, though. It may not always be the best choice, so perhaps that is what you really mean. That there are times when the only options are fight or pay. I can see your point on why you would find that annoying, but I dont think it comes up often enough to be a problem, really. *shrug*

[WalterGM]

N N 959 wrote:

Todd Morgan wrote:

Forgive me, but in your original post you say you are eager to be disabused of this notion yet argue against every option you've been given.

Except I haven't. Why don't you actually take the time to read my responses before making false accusations. In fact, in one post I offer my own explanations for how this can make sense.

To answer the heart of your post, you seem to think that anyone simply offering an answer is sufficient, no matter how feeble or contradictory the response. Posters can't even agree on the hierarchical relationship between the members and the Society. Sorry if I don't find a comparison to playing a game and risking one's life as a compelling example.

The fact is, and it is a fact, Walter Shepard, a Five Star VC stated this...

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Until Season 5, I would have agreed with you.

Season 5 has been out all of a month or so? So when your only contribution to the discussion is trying to pretend I'm being unreasonable as opposed to acknowledging I've made a legitimate observation suggests I'm not the one who is discussing the matter in bad faith.

For further clarity, since my opinions have been brought up.

I agree that when a scenario forces players to expend gold on spellcasting services (various transportation or teleportation effects, most commonly), it's a bit irritating. Luckily, those costs can however be spread across the entire party -- and when that happens, they are lessened. I also would dislike it if an NPC more or less requires a bribe, and the table GM won't respond to player workarounds. Be they solid roleplaying options, clever use of spells and abilities, or anything else PCs might conceive.

That said, I struggle to find a single scenario that says "the PCs must pay 20 gold for this bribe or fail the scenario." You can almost always either intimidate, RP, or kill your way through the 'encounter.' Also, while we may share some opinions regarding compensation for in-game expenses, I never found them as severe as they are presented. In my many tables, the most I have ever bribed someone is 50 gold. And the most I've ever spend on transportation was something like 200 gold (at level 7+). When the expenses are a day job roll or two, it's hard to get bent out of shape about it. I think a savvy approach if you run into this sort of thing in a scenario in the future would be to speak with the GM afterwards, and ask if there was an alternative way to bypass/defeat the encounter.

Also, thanks for recognizing my stars! They do mean that I have an above average level of experience with PFS and GMing. It doesn't mean that my opinions about campaign decisions are in anyway shared at a higher level. Todd and I can voice our opinions out here as honestly as we want because we're volunteers, not employees. Just keep in mind that they're that -- only one person's opinion.

[zylphryx]

fight, pay, bluff, intimidate, diplomacy, charm person/monster, dominate (at higher levels), etc.

Really there are numerous way to get past any encounter. Remember, if you are a GM, you should reward outside the box thinking. All circumstances cannot (and really should not) be outlined within a scenario. the routes of being confrontational (fight, bluff or intimidate) or personable (diplomacy or bluff) tend to be the most common approaches people take and should therefore be the ones outlined within a scenario. Listing an acceptable bribe, where an NPC would be amiable to such an option, also makes sense to list as it gives the GM a basis for determining what would be acceptable.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Walter. <shakes fist at a VC ninja.>

As to the initial inquiry as to the relationship between PCs and the Society, I have also viewed it as more akin to the Explorer / Gentlemen's Clubs of the 19th century.

As to the Society not covering every expense, I don't have a problem with that. IRL, if I go out of town for work, I do expect my travel costs and meal costs (within the agreed per diem amounts) to be covered. However, I do not expect them to reimburse me for kenneling my dogs (though I have had a client who did) or any other costs incurred which had not been agreed to. I sure as hell would not expect to be reimbursed for bribing anyone if I had to go that route for any reason on a business trip (and really can't see a situation where it could even come up, but if it did is my point).

Really, you should probably look at it this way. The Society will feed you, give you a place to sleep, give you access to research materials when time allows (there is not always time allowed for any given scenario), and will get you from point A to point B. They will give you assignments to recover Maguffin X / stop Person Y from doing something nasty / do random investigation Z and in exchange you get whatever loot is there along the way. They do not pay you. They are not your employer. They are your contact, your fixer, your agent, your insert preferred term here.

As to party make up, correct, you are going to be with a random group. It is the nature of PFS. You are not going to be able to hang out for a hour or more to find "the perfect party make up" ... unless you arrange to play with a set group of folks an figure out who will be playing what in advance. But really, PFS is set up so ANYONE CAN PLAY AT ANY TABLE. That is it's goal. It does mean you very well will end up with tables that would not be sent on an assignment if the PFS VC could have hand picked the party members. But you know what? A lot of GMs will take a barbarian/fighter/"I don't need diplomacy/to invest in attire for formal occasions/etc." party and through a bit of sarcasm into the VC delivery of the intro to reflect this (imagine the intro to the Blakros Matrimony with Ambrus taking such a tone as he delivers the following:

Spoiler:

“Can you believe this place?” Valsin calmly asks, keeping his
eyes squared on his chronicle. “Almost every agent worth her
salt is off in Varisia right now. I bet you the Heidmarchs’ manor
has more Pathfinders in it than this place.”
Valsin finishes his reading and places the document on the
desk, while sliding the envelope forward.
“Desna smiles upon us that I have you fine agents here,
as I doubt anyone else in Absalom is better qualified for this
mission. I won’t lie, this is probably one of the trickiest tasks
I’ve ever had to send a group of Pathfinders on, and much rides
on its success. I need you to attend a wedding. And not just any
wedding, mind you, but a Blakros wedding.”

As well as the closing of:

Spoiler:

“Also, you’ll need to peace-bond
any weapons when you arrive on the island, and I’d recommend
only wearing your finest armor, if you wear any at all. We’re
not too concerned about security at the wedding, but making
a good impression on the Blakroses and their guests is key to
your mission. You’ll need to mingle, and get on the good sides
of as many people as you can. I can’t stress this point enough:
This is a social gathering, and the Society could really use the
extra clout with all our current efforts being so far abroad. I
don’t care if you save the wedding from a dragon, find out the
bride is a doppelganger, or discover some grand plot to take
over the Inner Sea—I only care that you leave this wedding
having made people happy and improving our standing among
the attendees! Are we understood?”

Other than that, if you cannot suspend even a bit of disbelief, then yeah, you'll have issues with pretty much any set up you have in any incarnation of OP.

[John Compton]

NN959, there are points in the posts above where I share the same reaction as other posters: "We have given you responses that seem to answer your question, and you respond (to crudely paraphrase) that it's not good enough." You have some long posts laden with nuance, and while I recognize that I probably could switch my mind into academic mode to respond in a comprehensive manner, I don't have time in my schedule for that; heck, at this point I'm responding off the clock.

I'll leave you with three points for now, headed by paraphrased arguments/requests/calls to action on your part.

Any introduction scenario should impart to the players/PCs the nature of the society, its motivations, and its compensation/reimbursement structure.

As has already been spoiled at convention panels, there is already such an adventure in the works. Call me prescient if you wish, but the author and I have already discussed how to address some of these points several weeks ago. I'm not of a mind to spoil anything more than that at this time. It is your choice as to whether or not to have faith in the authors and development process.

The scenarios should involve the VC giving the PCs one or more tools to help in the mission.

I can think of three published adventures since I started working here that do just that, and it sounds like I slipped it into a Season 5 scenario, too. What others have said above about the nature of the Pathfinder Society is generally on-target; the organization is not a company with a salary, 401K, and dental. As a result, the society is not going to provide "you might need this, but maybe not" tools every time.

You're not quite answering my question/addressing the point. I'm looking for XYZ in the lore, and the authors should put it in.

I feel I can safely reference several dozen posters above when I say that we're still a little unclear on what this is. From your posts I can tell that you have some writing experience, so I would appreciate your showing instead of telling me what it is you're looking for. Here's my challenge to you for my own understanding: choose at least one mission briefing from a season 3+ scenario (two would be nice, time permitting) and rewrite it to fit your intended model or paradigm. Endeavor to alter only those parts that need changing to match your needs. When you have that text, please post it here in spoiler tags (identifying the scenario name) along with the original text. You might even help the community to digest the changes made by bolding those changes.

I feel that may be what illustrates it properly for my understanding.

Aaaaand...I spent 35 minutes when I intended perhaps 10. Ah well...

[Eric Saxon]

N N 959 wrote:

Eric Saxon wrote:

When is the last time you had to pay for your own food, lodgings, training, education, starting equipment, access to some serious magic firepower? Never you say. You can cough up a few gp to get the jobs done, that you've been asked to do.

Once again, thanks for making a good faith post. Psychologically, though, I can't say this is compelling. My RL job provides me with way more than the Society and they never expect me to pay for things specific to the job out of my own pocket. Everywhere I've worked, if I take an employee out to lunch to show appreciation, the company reimburses me. None of these jobs require that I risk my life.

The other general problem I have is that in all D&D based RPG's that I've played, food and lodging are just not factor in the game. Sure, most GMs pinch your brand-new-fresh-off-the-boat character with paying for his half chicken and pint of ale 5sp meal, and then quickly nobody bothers. In fact, the PFS-OP would shoot itself in the foot trying to track that stuff. So it's hard to sell that as a basis for my risking my life at some VC's beck and call.

Magic items are paid for by the PC. The Society isn't giving you that. PP are redeemed against your Faction. And as far as granting access, ever since 3.5 (and maybe before?), you could go to Magic Mart and buy anything your town/city could produce. If this was 1st Edition, though, I'd agree about access to Magic Items. In fact, I'd be expecting to pay dues.

The idea that food and lodging and travel costs are this huge benefit worthy of such devotion isn't compelling. I think there needs to be more emphasis put on the ideology of the Society as aligning with the PC's. As I said before, I'd like to see more of an indoctrination of PC's at lower levels.

Interesting response but you unfortunately did not answer every part of my response, only those parts that were convenient.

Allow me to remind you of the following:

You've never paid an information broker out of your funds. (100-1,000 gp per mission)

You've never paid for permission to receive access to a nation. (Maybe you are an Andoran and somehow you're allowed access to free travel through Cheliax.)

You've never paid for the bribes to go digging through someone's family crypt. (Or do you think some nobleman of Cheliax would really allow you to desecrate his father's tomb if you are an Andoran or a Taldane.)

Now, finally. Have you ever paid for the lawyers or diplomats who smooth things over with a national government, when things go wrong? (Last time I checked, killing a Hellknight in Cheliax would get your face posted on a WANTED: Dead or Alive post in every city of the Empire.) Last time I've checked your Pathfinder, never has to deal with the consequences of his own actions, the clean up crew goes in and makes amends, whether its Diplomats to House Thrune, or bribes to an Andoran Senator or trade concesions made to a Kalistocrat of Druma.

These things are all handled behind the scenes.

Now, you can choose not to pay the bribe and fail a mission. What that means is that you've shown that you are not very competent or willing to do what is necessary, for your faction leader. In return he does not grant you prestige among his own faction vs. the next guy who did. So, when you both want to buy a Sword/Bow +3, you faction leader intercedes on his behalf and not on yours. So, you have the option of trading the 400gp of incidental expenses for the 20 extra prestige you could have gotten. And 20 prestige can mean the difference of meeting a Vampire with a +1 weapon or a +3 weapon, later on in your career, or a basic armor +1 vs a magic item that might prevent you from being life drained to death.

But you used your RL job as an example. If you had to meet with a CEO in a foreign country a gift (or bribe) might mean a 100% sale while the guy who comes empty handed goes home emptyhanded, would you really quibble about the expense of $100 when it means a $200,000 commission for a successful sale?

No, you'd eat the $100 cost of the gift and take your $200,000 commission while the guy who didn't is now looking for another sales job.

As for 3.5, this is not 3.5 and there is no Magic-Mart, getting your hands on a +5 keen weapon of Fire Burst is impossible, even in Absalom. You need to know a guy, who knows a guy and there in comes your Faction Prestige and Pathfinder Prestige. Your Pathfinder Prestige will only get you access to so much, its your faction prestige that can make the difference between life and death on the road.

All these things are incorporated, without you actually being made aware as a player because the game creators don't want to get into the minutiae of running the day to day operations of the Pathfinder Society.

[Cpt_kirstov]

I can think of 3 scenarios that you NEEED to bribe someone. in two the VC gives you a purse for expenses, in the third another NPC offers to pay the legal payment + 300% to bribe the needed person. There are other scenarios where bribing someone is an option. but it is not needed, and therefore not needed. in your pizza company adding gas money when they deliver, if they budget $1 because you live 2 miles from the shop, and the driver gets a ticket on the way to your house, you don't have to pay the ticket, because it is an expense that wasn't needed to get the job done.

[N N 959]

John Compton wrote:

Here's my challenge to you for my own understanding: choose at least one mission briefing from a season 3+ scenario (two would be nice, time permitting) and rewrite it to fit your intended model or paradigm. Endeavor to alter only those parts that need changing to match your needs. When you have that text, please post it here in spoiler tags (identifying the scenario name) along with the original text. You might even help the community to digest the changes made by bolding those changes.

I feel that may be what illustrates it properly for my understanding.

First, let me say thanks again for taking time to read my posts and respond to them. Second, this is an excellent approach: put the onus on the customer to help improve their experience. This tact, as much as anything in the game itself, is what motivates me to support PFS, and by extension Paizo.

I'll take a look and see if my writing skills are half as good as you give me credit for.

[Funky Badger]

N N 959 wrote:

Once again, thanks for making a good faith post. Psychologically, though, I can't say this is compelling. My RL job provides me with way more than the Society and they never expect me to pay for things specific to the job out of my own pocket. Everywhere I've worked, if I take an employee out to lunch to show appreciation, the company reimburses me. None of these jobs require that I risk my life.

I suppose you could always go to work next time there's a gaming session on instead...?

[BigNorseWolf]

In the peace corps we were expected to cover our own bri... erm.. "filing fees" with government officials.

Wound up at a road block for three hours with one of our folks in the office for "questioning" over not paying one.

[Quendishir]

Walter Sheppard wrote:

And when my level 4 barbarian is forced to play down, I would have to firmly disagree that he's getting the "best" mission.

BABYSITTING MISSION BEST MISSION

[nosig]

Funky Badger wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

Once again, thanks for making a good faith post. Psychologically, though, I can't say this is compelling. My RL job provides me with way more than the Society and they never expect me to pay for things specific to the job out of my own pocket. Everywhere I've worked, if I take an employee out to lunch to show appreciation, the company reimburses me. None of these jobs require that I risk my life.

I suppose you could always go to work next time there's a gaming session on instead...?

wow...

I regularly pay for taking someone to lunch at my job...
and when I was in the army, I can recall many times having to pay for items required to do my job... "uniform allowance" never seems to cover the cost of the required uniforms....

historically, militaries have never covered the cost of all a soldiers equipment. French troops in the nepoleonic wars weren't issued canteens like the british troops - they just had to "accuire" them as best they could. American troops in Valley Forge? German troops around Stalingrad? Need we go on? Pick any historical period you want... most soldiers were required to supply their own equipment. Heck, Early Roman citizenship depended on what you could show up with! 2nd class citizens could afford to outfit themselves better than 4th class - that'w why they were 2nd class!

private business is ... spotty at best. SOMETIMES, some expenses are covered - but talk to people about how easy it is to get reimbursed for expenses at companies that cover "all expenses"!!! I can recall waiting 3 months to be reimbursed for expenses I had been told they would cover... and being shorted even then (fighting for 3 months with accounting trolls - it should be a scenario!).

I have somewhere a copy of Mercenary Man-at-armes contract from the 1600s... talk about an eye opener. They worked mainly for food, and not much of that (and not very good food either). Or take a look at the "Prize Money" splits for captured loot from the Nepolionic wars. The goverment got it's half first. then the Admiral (who wasn't there) got his full share and so on (Captains share, senior officers split a share, NCOs got to split a smaller share) and so on down to the common seamen got to split a share amoung all of them... each crewman would get something like 1/250th of a half what the Captain got... and they considered themselves lucky to get that.

[trollbill]

You see? This is what happens when they get rid of the Pathfinder Union (Shadow Lodge). The Decimverate just keeps sticking it to the little guy. Why I wouldn't be surprised if they bribed Mike Brock (most likely with beer) just to get Torch out of the way.

[Don Walker]

I think the perspective of the OP is off. In PFS you are not an employee of the Pathfinder Society. You are a member. You joined because you believe in furthering the goals of said Society. Sometimes that means self-funding certain aspects of an adventure - because you believe it is the right thing to do.

If you can not accept that "buy-in" then maybe Pathfinder Society play is not for you.

Characters risk their lives - a much higher price to pay. Not to mention diseases, curses, etc. These all cost gold that comes out of the character's pocket. Sometimes the risk is a little gold paid as a bribe.

Speaking to real life allegories:

John Compton mentioned Venture Officers above. I was a Venture-Captain for 2 years and had very little personal cash available for promoting PFS. So I did everything as cheaply as possible. Free websites. Limited trips to conventions outside Boston (about 6 per year including GenCon). Not a lot of GM rewards out of my pocket (Pathfinder bottle openers to those who went above and beyond. A compass for earning 2 stars. A PFS shot glass for earning 3.)

Still, I think I managed to spend about $600 each year solely for the purpose of supporting PFS in my region (mostly travel expenses). I'm positive most officers spend twice that much if not more.

If you were to factor in the time spent just on performing official duties ... well ... what I'm saying is that we are members - not employees. We are here because we believe in PFS. Not to get a paycheck.