Lich vs Graveknight Template

[Rynjin]

So just to be clear you're gonna let me cast spells while incapacitated, right?

;)

[CWheezy]

Gauss wrote:

Let me turn that around, can you find what "dead" means within Pathfinder for me?

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#_conditions

Check under "dead":

Spoiler:

The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

I am actually using logic as well!

My logic is that since there are a bunch of conditions we could apply, lets go down the list:
Helpless? Probably not, because you can still take actions. Helpless means you can do anything, and vampires later gain this condition.

Unconscious? Undead actually can't become this, because they are either dead or have unlife, and are immune to non lethal.

Panicked? This one might make sense, but it also says you can cast spells to help you run, which seems fine to me.

Disabled? This is the condition that matches the vampire one, imo, especially because it calls out the state of having 0 hit points.

I think an important distinction to make is that undead are obviously super broken with all their great immunities, so if you are actually trying to argue that it is too good, and are doing that by saying it is not possible, you should just say that now

EDIT: Oh sorry for responding, I just noticed your personal attack in there, I thought you wanted discussion.

[Gauss]

CWheezy, it is interesting that there is nothing in the Dead condition stating what actions you can and cannot take. Hmmm, almost as if, wait, yes, common sense applies! (Don't take my humor seriously, it was a joke :))

It is also interesting that the PRD conditions does not contain the same information as the latest printing of the CRB. It is actually including some lines not in the book.

CWheezy, I do not have to argue it is too good, my logic stands. The creature is stated to be incapacitated and then it is stated what it is able to do while incapacitated which is to travel to it's coffin.

While in the rules forum I may argue RAW, we are not in the rules forum right now. Right now I am arguing logic and common sense rather than RAW.

- Gauss

[CWheezy]

When a wizard runs away from something, can he cast spells?

[Rynjin]

I always figured incapacitated was supposed to refer back to Disabled, but I have no idea how it's actually SUPPOSED to work.

It could be an entirely new "condition" for vampires only that refers solely back to "When incapacitated you take gaseous form" for all we know.

*shrugs*

Though the phrase is used liberally throughout the game in certain text (just search "incapacitated" on the SRD) which leads me to believe by simple process of elimination that the dictionary definition is what we are supposed to be using, since it's not defined in game terms.

[Taason the Black]

Common sense says that a vampire, when reduced to 0 hps, cannot just float there and cast spells while being invulnerable. That is blatant misrepresentation of the write up. At 0 hp, you are done with nothing on your mind but self preservation and getting out. NOT sitting there and nuking things while invulnerable to harm. Any GM that would allow that really needs his head examined.

If anything, the vampire would be in a state of panic and fleeing back to the one thing it considers safe: its coffin.

[Umbriere Moonwhisper]

Taason the Black wrote:

Common sense says that a vampire, when reduced to 0 hps, cannot just float there and cast spells while being invulnerable. That is blatant misrepresentation of the write up. At 0 hp, you are done with nothing on your mind but self preservation and getting out. NOT sitting there and nuking things while invulnerable to harm. Any GM that would allow that really needs his head examined.

If anything, the vampire would be in a state of panic and fleeing back to the one thing it considers safe: its coffin.

or flee to it's bedroom if it slept in a bed in place of a coffin, such as the case for Remilia Scarlet

or whatever the heck it sleeps in.

[Inkaos]

SRD wrote:

Graveknights cannot physically enjoy sleep, food, sex, or other such pleasures, though some may go through the motions in pursuit of those emotions they are still allowed: triumph, victory, and the grim satisfaction of absolute dominance. Even these may lose their luster over time, however—the longer a graveknight exists, the greater the conquest it must wallow in to achieve satisfaction

I would say that is the biggest downside to the Graveknight. They are usually a martial character, so to lose most/all sensation in life, including the adrenaline rush of combat which they also lose.... thats a pretty terrible fate, and likely to lead to them making mistakes out of frustration.

A liche on the other hand is usually a more cerebral type who derives satisfaction from the pursuit of knowledge/magic/etc. Also the Liche doesn't have any reference to losing the pleasures of life... just turning really dessicated and ugly.