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My group has routinely expressed interest in playing a low-magic fantasy campaign, but there isn't any solid consensus as to what, exactly, that entails. So, as I work some ideas from my side (as the uber-storyteller/GM), I thought I'd throw the general question out to the greater Paizo world ... In terms of game-mechanics, how do you see a low-magic fantasy world working? What trouble-spots do I need to pay attention to and plan for ahead of time to keep the game from derailing?
Something I tossed out as an off-the-cuff remark caught their attention and interest - setting the game in something like the Greek Isles around 50AD (ie: the eastern Med as depicted during the events in the New Testament), where there are civilizations, great civilizations, globe-spanning trade-routes, urban sprawls, and vast wilderness areas. No "New World frontiers," as such - plenty of wilderness in everyone's back yards yet. Maybe Bronze Age arms and armor from 3.5's A&EG.
Thoughts?
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Firstly, the A&EG is probably one of the most referenced books I've ever used. Ultimate Combat has some interesting rules as well (some, like bronze age weapons, I think are just updated).
In a low magic campaign, there are a few things of interest you need to be ready for.
1) Determine if low magic means less casters, maximum caster levels, and the rarity of magic items. Things like potions of remove disease become more valuable.
2) With more money and less magic to spend it on, PC's will invest in communities or mundane things such as fortresses. Be prepared to make snap decisions about economy and what DC's are for skill checks and what not. The Kingdom Building rules in Ultimate Campaign would come in handy here.
3) Race/Class matters more than the equipment on there backs. Rogues become extra deadly because they excel at many things.
Advice wise, let's look at a few models
a) Magical knowledge is limited
-Casters may be unable to learn higher level spells after a certain point. Allow them to continue to gain higher level spells slots that they can fill with metamagic versions of those spells. This pulls out all the stops on how to creatively use lower level spells.
-Magic item creation may be a lost art. Sure, Brew Potion is still available as a means of passing out magic, but other item creation feats are unavailable until double their caster level requirement. Magic weapons are rare and powerful.
b) Magic is dangerous to use
-Casters take nonlethal damage equal to 1d4 X Spell Level when they cast a spell. If they reach half HP, they become fatigued and so forth. If they run out of spells, they can attempt to cast a spell for 2d8 x Spell level worth of damage.
c) Magic is no longer practiced.
-This one is the hardest for an adventuring party to cope with. If you wish to do a no magic campaign, decide if it applies only to the heroes or also to everything else. This makes dragons less deadly for example. In this version, changing the Alchemist from a semi-magical class to a purely science class helps out a lot.
Personally, in a low magic campaign, I've told casters they can't gain about 3rd level spells unless they burn a feat and have encouraged them to use metamagic. With that in mind, I've limited spells for NPC's and monsters as well unless they are 1k year old liches etc. I always make the alchemist a science class. Also, in a low magic campaign, science WILL take off. Guns are the likely evolutionary curve. You'll have areas go through industrial revolution/steampunk. Dwarves become more important as their knowledge of structural engineering promotes them to a highly valued asset. This also makes assaults from the fey realms more dangerous as they are generally not limited by such magical issues.
Sorry, I'm getting off on tangent. I love low magic. It brings out the creativity in people.
The biggest piece of advise on this is to use Ultimate Combat's Armor as Damage Reduction rules. At some point, monsters will always hit the PC's. DR is going to help them stay alive alot longer.
Are you asking for example campaign settings or just general advice about running low magic?
There's low magic and then there's low availability of magic items, and they don't have to be the same. You can have standard magic, in which people playing caster classes have the same level of power but magic items are more expensive. This is kind of how Dark Sun ends up working for most people, and Psionics fills the gaps for lack of magic users.
Tweaking the availability of magic items is one of the fussier bits of 3.x/PF, and I'd generally advise against it unless you're willing to run an alternate system or do a LOT of work fudging stuff. There was a good discussion a while back on these boards about an alternate system to give players the requisite ability/AC/hit/damage/save bonuses so they can still stand up against regular CR creatures. I'll look for it, but feel free to search the boards as well.
You might look at Iron Heroes, which is a variant 3.5 system that is very very low magic and aimed more towards pulp heroes style. I think it would work very well in a sword and sandal campaign.
Alternately, you might just want to play E6.
As for casting classes, we were looking at two approaches - NO base caster classes at all & tweaking the Alchemist to more of the mad-scientist rather than the magical scientist *OR* capping caster classes at 3rd level spells with higher slots available for metamagicked spells. Hadn't thought about using a feat to gain access to higher level spells.
Master Craftsman makes an interesting approach to item crafting - only arms & armor and wondrous items, but available from non-casters. This would mainly help if we removed base casters.
We were looking at things like Ki Pools, Rogue magical talents, and the like to stand in for full spell-casting in place of base casters.
E6 - from what little I've picked up on - is likely close to how we'll end up going. Part of the question-pool I have trouble articulating, tho, is more along the lines of "how different will a low-magic setting look from Forgotten Realms while not looking like our own history?"
Very very different from FR.
Depends on specific flavor, but I like Birthright level of magic.
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As for mages I might cap spells at 4th level or even 5th but with some exceptions like teleport removed. Really control he spells available and slow down the progression to be more like a bard.
Don't forget clerics. I would go back to something like 1st Ed with 7th level max or replace with a different class like oracle. I would definitely do away with channeling.
Finally no magic items or they are very rare. Only unique magic items no +"whatever".
Go for it Doc, it will be great.
I've tried low magic and never looked back, except maybe to laugh at high magic games.
As for mages I might cap spells at 4th level or even 5th but with some exceptions like teleport removed. Really control he spells available and slow down the progression to be more like a bard.
Don't forget clerics. I would go back to something like 1st Ed with 7th level max or replace with a different class like oracle. I would definitely do away with channeling.
Finally no magic items or they are very rare. Only unique magic items no +"whatever".
Yep, all good ideas to make it work.
Very very different from FR.
Depends on specific flavor, but I like Birthright level of magic.
Low magic forgotten realms, is actually pretty cool.
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I've run a homebrew low magic campaign and it was a lot of fun. It was set in a Bronze Age world but the PCs started off in a Stone Age society.
This was 3.5 edition, not pathfinder and I limited starting classes to:
rogue
barbarian
fighter
monk
CW or OA samurai
knight
scout
marshal
swashbuckler
ranger
paladin
ninja
crusader
swordsage
warblade
adept
So basically almost no magic.
The initial lack of equipment and spells meant that for the first few levels the PCs' tactical options were extremely limited. I compensated for this by designing early encounters that depended on skill checks, roleplaying, puzzles, and most especially by putting PCs in situations that they obviously could not solve through brute force alone - they would have to use their wits to survive in a harsh and primitive world.
It was our first time using E6, and it will be our last. E6 did not really work out for us. E6 does solve the "quadratic caster progression" problem, but it does so by essentially shutting down the level-up system just when quadratic caster progression usually starts to become an issue. Players like to get rewarded and feel like they are making constant progress. Once we hit level 6 that didn't happen anymore, instead everyone felt like we were just treading water.
Now I know some players love E6, so I will just say it's not for everyone. If you do try E6 and decide it's not for you, it won't be too hard to switch the campaign from E6 back to a "normal" experience progression -- that's what we ended up doing.
Other issues that will definitely come up with low magic:
1. Healing. Lack of magical healing will mean you'll want to come up with houserules for making nonmagical healing more effective.
2. The CR experience point award system starts to break down because it assumes the PCs have got spells and gear they can't get in a low magic setting. You'll have to award XP on a case by case basis.
3. With such a radical change in the rules there are going to be minor hiccups that require houserules. Example: Towards the end of my campaign it was pointed out that a single contagion spell could wipe out an entire city due to the lack of commonly available magical healing. So I had to change the contagion spell a bit.
4. Lack of magic means fewer tactical options in combat. To keep combat from getting stale you're really going to have to push dynamic, interesting combat situations. Battles where the terrain is a major factor. Battles that take place with uncommon enemy tactics. Battles that need to be completed within a certain time, or in a certain way (example: escort the ambassador to safety without him knowing that you're escorting him).
There's a lot of reasons why I thought low magic was fun:
1. It's a very different way of playing than most players are used to. Many players use magic as a crutch, an easy way to get out of critical thinking and problem solving. When you take that crutch away the campaign becomes more challenging, and everyone feels a bigger sense of accomplishment when obstacles are overcome. If players are confronted with the challenge of crossing a vast hostile desert, now rather than just teleporting across it, or using magic to create food and water, they actually have to carefully plan their expedition, and getting across that desert becomes an accomplishment rather than just an insignificant footnote in the journey.
2. No more "Christmas Tree effect" and no more "quadratic caster progression" effect.
3. What little magic there is in the campaign feels magical again. Like in Tolkein's low magic Lord of the Rings when the heroes get a magic item it's a major event and the item is treated with reverence. But in a standard magic campaign if the players got "Sting" they'd just toss it on the treasure pile as "oh, just another +2 sword."
The plot of my low magic campaign revolved around various tribes trying to gain possession of a magic dagger, and the PCs end up getting caught in the struggle. Wars end up being fought over that dagger. It was quite a switch from our usual high magic forgotten realms campaign, where magic daggers were a dime a dozen!
Good luck with your campaign!
If I wanted to play low magic I'd do the following:
- Increase all spell levels by 1
- E6
- lower all DR*
*Reduce material DR by halve and turn DR/magic into a material DR.
Just remove all full caster classes and leave only half casters in place?
I like it, so anyone can get ranger like bonuses if they make the weapon for the job.
I just passed tridents with a bonus against sea monsters to my players a few sessions ago.
If you intend to severely limit access to magic items, be ready to adjust monsters a lot.
Also limiting access to magic items makes full-spellcasting-classes much more "powerful", I'd suggest limiting all full-spellcasters to bard/inquisitor progressions, as well as limiting bards/inquisitors/... to paladin/ranger progressions.
You'll have the following questions, you need to be able to answer (world lore stuff):
- magical items: who makes them, how expensive are they and what did people do to make non-magical aids (parachutes/hang glider/other da-vinci stuff/steampunk/guns)? what's the state of medicine (curing wounds/diseases/...)?
- why can only some people access magic and how powerful (politically) are they because of it?
- what about clearly magical monsters (demons/devils/dragons)? how do people protect themselves? how do nation's armies overcome monster resistances to drive them out/back
Some low magic rule/campaign changes I've seen or used. Note: don't use all of these at once.
1) Socially unacceptable. If you are seen casting spells or using magic items you get an immediate negative reaction. "Burn the witch!" Spell casters need to have things like sleight of hand, disguise, multiclass with something else, use non-flashy spells, etc... To hide what they are and still function.
2) Socially rare magic items. Wizard doesn't want to make an uber shield because then he won't have any future work. But he will sell you a partial wand of greater magic armor, since you will have to come back after it runs out. He won't sell you a staff of fire because you might use it against him. But he will sell you several scrolls of stone skin because it is not a direct threat to him.
3) Socially restricted. Church will only sell cures to members of good standing (maybe closely allied church for x2 cost) so they know you are an acceptable person. Wizard will only sell scrolls to close friends since a stranger might commit a crime with it and he could get in trouble.
4) Slow spell recovery. If you don't get a full nights sleep you only recover spell levels (lowest first) equal to your caster level. Each full nights sleep is CLx2. Full day rest is CLx4. Casters have to be very careful about nova burst all their high powered abilities. They could be very week and vulnerable for several days afterword.
5) Permanent items like weapons, rings, belts, etc... cost x2 to x5 the book cost. So you can still buy a +1 hammer to hit the gargoyle with. But you aren't likely to afford a keen, spell storing, holy sword.
6) Casting a spell requires a spell craft check and/or a concentration check every time. Raise the DC until it becomes as rare as you want.
7) Primary caster class can only be taken every other level max.
8) Divine and arcane do NOT cooperate. (No god for arcane casters with this one.) Divine beings feel that arcane casters are usurping them. Clerics can't heal an arcane caster except in the most dire cases and that would still require an atonement. Arcane casters think the clerics are a bunch of jealous ninnies and enjoy seeing them taken down a peg or two. So they won't help them either.
9) Slow casting. Casting time increased by 1/2 the spell level.
10) Roll playing issues. Requires some cooperation from the players. Using other worldly powers slowly drives the caster insane. So over the levels the caster gains paranoia, phobias, hallucinations, compulsive behaviors, etc...
{{ If you have really good players, I like this last one best. }}
What ever you choose, be sure to think about whether some of the standard encounters are appropriate or survivable.
If you will be lynched for using any magic, even a minor incorporeal undead creature is incredibly dangerous.
Define low magic please.
1.No magic, no magic beast, humancentric, historical.
2.Extreme low magic, relic weapons from a lost age, "magic" restricted to far off lands and hidden places.
3.Conan, Magic is rare and dangerous, ancient cultures created marvels lost in time, wizards are feared and few.
4.LoTR Wizard exist and are very powerful people, magic monsters and races are common and known even if the layman never meet them. Magic items are special or old.
5.Typical PF, minus the magic market.
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Thanks, folks! You've given me a *LOT* to think about and to discuss with my players. Mr. Fishy, your list is going to be very useful in helping my players narrow down what they are thinking of when they say "low magic" - thanks for the list of examples.
One of the first questions that came to my mind was did they want to play in a world that had once had a "full spectrum" of magic that disappeared (abruptly/slowly, partially/completely, recently/aeons past) or a world where magic has not yet fully developed. Roleplaying in a world that just underwent a "manaclypse" would be very different from playing in a world on the cusp of choosing between following magic or technology.
I'm getting the impression they want a not-fully-developed growth of magic, with alchemy and alchemists (and magesmith and tinkerer types) being far more common. So for this, I'm liking the concept of "monsters as loot" where you use their body-parts as part of the magic items. Ranger-types can make a great living procuring anatomical samples for study and use.
But knowledge of magic items would have to be...spotty. Arms & armor sure, because killing things is something we seem to know on a base level. Wondrous items because, wow, I need something to do X so I'll figure one out as I go. But because the "rules of magic" aren't yet understood, "stored spells" like wands & potions & such don't exist.
My main caster player loves the idea of having to be more creative with her spell-use, figuring out how to best apply meta-magic feats to her more limited spells in order to get the best use out of them.
I'm thinking a lot of supernatural creatures will not exist, focusing more on "realistic" animal/vermin types. Creatures that take a lot of damage to bring down will be far more common than creatures that need a lot of supernatural/magical assistance to take down.
(I more like the "magic faded/failed/was forgotten" approach, where ancient artifacts still work just fine, but few know anything about making or using them any more.)
I've been running relatively low magic campaigns for years, and I've never considered going back. The 3.x system of magical walmarts is a tedious monster, so I removed it completely. Everyone flying and being immune to everything by mid-level is obnoxious. It makes the game stale because every party ends up using the same spells and getting the same magic items. The checklist of magic BS a party has to pack before they head out is silly. A potion and scroll for every occasion bogs the game down, and the sheer efficiency of certain items makes others simply too easy to pass up.
My favorite house rule of all time Inherent Bonuses
Inherent bonuses and stat adjustments. I pretty much only use the table. The rest of the rules are alright, but I find they keep too closely to the christmas tree item affect. I also keep secondary weapons and shields equivalent to standard weapons (it's not a particularly elegant solution, so you do get a slight power spike for those users at certain levels; by mid level it's going to happen in a regular game, so more power to the sword-and-board!). Mechanically speaking, this fills the gaps to allow for the creation of more level appropriate content for PCs.
Using these rules has many interesting consequences. For one, running PCs against humanoid adversaries is a lot easier. You don't have to worry about them picking up a treasure trove of simple +X magic loot from every item slot of a dead humanoid NPC's corpse. It also gives PCs incentive to use a variety of different weapons and armor, but in the same breath does not allow PCs to design their builds completely around any given item/enchantment.
For real magic items I typically make them grant powerful effects, such as being made of adamantine. Realistically, adamantine is a disgusting property in and of itself. It basically makes your sword a slightly weaker version of a lightsaber, and I reserve this sort of "magic" item for higher levels (a PC...
Here here!
Hello there brother *manly handshake*.
Some low magic rule/campaign changes I've seen or used. Note: don't use all of these at once.
1) Socially unacceptable. If you are seen casting spells or using magic items you get an immediate negative reaction. "Burn the witch!" Spell casters need to have things like sleight of hand, disguise, multiclass with something else, use non-flashy spells, etc... To hide what they are and still function.
2) Socially rare magic items. Wizard doesn't want to make an uber shield because then he won't have any future work. But he will sell you a partial wand of greater magic armor, since you will have to come back after it runs out. He won't sell you a staff of fire because you might use it against him. But he will sell you several scrolls of stone skin because it is not a direct threat to him.
3) Socially restricted. Church will only sell cures to members of good standing (maybe closely allied church for x2 cost) so they know you are an acceptable person. Wizard will only sell scrolls to close friends since a stranger might commit a crime with it and he could get in trouble.
4) Slow spell recovery. If you don't get a full nights sleep you only recover spell levels (lowest first) equal to your caster level. Each full nights sleep is CLx2. Full day rest is CLx4. Casters have to be very careful about nova burst all their high powered abilities. They could be very week and vulnerable for several days afterword.
5) Permanent items like weapons, rings, belts, etc... cost x2 to x5 the book cost. So you can still buy a +1 hammer to hit the gargoyle with. But you aren't likely to afford a keen, spell storing, holy sword.
6) Casting a spell requires a spell craft check and/or a concentration check every time. Raise the DC until it becomes as rare as you want.
7) Primary caster class can only be taken every other level max.
8) Divine and arcane do NOT cooperate. (No god for arcane casters with this one.) Divine beings feel that arcane casters are usurping them. Clerics can't heal an arcane caster except in...
Those are some great ideas. I liked 2 and 8. Set this in a backdrop of a cleric vs wizard war (with the sorcerers as mercs).
+1 to 'monsters as loot'
Though that may just be too many hours lost to Monster Hunter talking...
... Those are some great ideas. I liked 2 and 8. Set this in a backdrop of a cleric vs wizard war (with the sorcerers as mercs)....
2) Socially rare magic items. Wizard doesn't want to make an uber shield because then he won't have any future work. But he will sell you a partial wand of greater magic armor, since you will have to come back after it runs out. He won't sell you a staff of fire because you might use it against him. But he will sell you several scrolls of stone skin because it is not a direct threat to him.
...
8) Divine and arcane do NOT cooperate. (No god for arcane casters with this one.) Divine beings feel that arcane casters are usurping them. Clerics
I had it as a very multi-sided conflict.
a) You had the nature lovers. Druids and Rangers.
b) The academic arcane casters. The prepared, Wizards and Witches.
c) The natural arcane casters. The spontaneus, Sorcerers and Bards.
d) Body is gods temple. God gave you that body so you can't use magic to change your body (other than putting it back in good shape). So you can't cast Bull's Strength, because that would imply that god didn't make your body good enough. However, you can use Earthquake because that is external to you. Detect Magic causes magic items to glow, so it is ok.
e) Body was given to you by god, so it is the only thing you are allowed to change. The world is not yours so you can't change it. Can't cast Earthquake, since that is affecting the world that is the property of god. Can use Bull's Strength, since it only directly affects you. Detect magic allows your eyes to see the magical emminations that are already there, so it is ok.
There would be clerics, paladins, and inquisitors that worshiped the exact same deity in both groups d) and e).
It was fun for a while, but was a huge amount of work for the GM to keep track of who was in which group. Then who knows which group that person is in. Then who is wrong and thinks he's in another group.
I've been doing it in a new game, and it is a pretty solid idea, and has worked in implementation. Players also are attached to certain items (and repulsed by others) based on what they cam from.
List at present
Manscorpion half-plate scale armour, which only covers half the body since it was worn by manscorpions.
A frog cloak, magically allows breathing under water.
A whip made from a killer plant vine, which almost one-shotted a party member.
A small rapier made from a stirge proboscis.
Various types of bone and shell armour.
A giant shield made from part of the shell of a tarrasque (the French turtle version).
That is all I can recall for now.
The single best idea I've seen is the 1e 'roll to learn spell' table. Makes learning magic difficult, and therefore makes spellcasters all different.
Beyond that, +1 to talk with your players.
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The worst part about talking to my players? "We trust you to take our half-baked ideas and vague dreams and mesh them into something totally cool and FUN!!"
...it's been like that off and on for 20+ years in some cases...
The single best idea I've seen is the 1e 'roll to learn spell' table. Makes learning magic difficult...
I actually thought about digging that out to see how I could modify it to work with PF mechanics.