RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The difference between a 3/4 BAB and full-BAB class keeps going up as you level. If you're a fighty-type mid-BAB class, what are the best ways to make sure you're hitting?
For instance, I have an 8th-level melee cleric. He's 2 BAB lower than a full martial character, but between heroism (as a domain spell or domain aura, as appropriate) and divine favor, I often have the highest to-hit at the table.
But not everybody can do that.
What are the best ways to keep your to-hit up if you want to smack people around as a:
Druid?
Magus?
Bard?
Inquisitor?
Weapon focus makes up for the first point of BAB loss, but presumably if you want to keep up you then need something more at 5th or so, then more at 9th.
So for those of you who like to wade into melee (or use a bow, I suppose) as a half-BAB character, what are your preferred methods of keeping your attacks relevant?
The problem with the classes they've outlined is that they have their own built-in abilities which keep their to-hits quite close to fighter standard.
Druid: Wild Shape! Magic Weapon!
Magus: Arcane Pool! Arcane Accuracy!
Bard: Bard Song!
Inquisitor: Judgements!
GM is right:
druids- stack str through wildshape, buff with magic fang*, and if you're focusing on melee maybe even dip a couple levels of barb for really insulting strength
magus- use arcane pool to up weapons enhancement bonus and add Int to attacks (or, later, make attacks count as touch), buff with monstrous physique spells (and eventually transformation), use the Spell Blending arcana to pick up other buffs (like heroism)
bard- cast heroism as a 2nd level spell, inspire courage
inquisitor- same heroism domain aura, same divine favor, judgement, make weapons bane
edit: i really like melee clerics, but i think the inquisitor will routinely have a better chance to hit (assuming similar builds, and discounting campaigns that allow the guided weapon property- that could likely give the cleric the edge in attack bonus, though those clerics are probably doing less damage...)
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Good points on most of these classes, but about the druid:
druids- stack str through wildshape, buff with magic fang*, and if you're focusing on melee maybe even dip a couple levels of barb for really insulting strength
Sounds like this only works for wildshaping/natural attacks. What if you want to stab things with an actual weapon? Or is there just no reliable way of doing that?
though those clerics are probably doing less damage...)
They are doing less damage. In terms of their damage output, the best I've ever seen a Cleric pull is a Channel Smite nova attack. The fact remains that not only is your hit chance below, say, a fighter's, but you also are receiving significantly less feats and abilities. In the time it took you to grab, say, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, and maybe Furious Focus or Cleave, the Fighter also has Weapon Specialization and maybe another one or two feats that give him some more tactics for kicks.
I can understand the argument that the fighter is less versatile than spellcasters, sure. But less powerful? I've never really bought that, especially as nothing short of firearms has any real penalty for missing with an attack, compared to loosing a spell if you miss / fail with it.
Add Oracle to the list. Battle, Metal for melee, and Wood for Archery.
Long term buffs help. A buff round helps.
If you are an Oracle/Druid, being a full caster presumably helps.
Having a CMB build, or a Big Hit build helps.
Aasimar favored class bonus can boost the Oracle level, which can in tern boost the power of a Revelation. …like wood bond, I think it is.
The difference between a 3/4 BAB and full-BAB class keeps going up as you level. If you're a fighty-type mid-BAB class, what are the best ways to make sure you're hitting?
For instance, I have an 8th-level melee cleric. He's 2 BAB lower than a full martial character, but between heroism (as a domain spell or domain aura, as appropriate) and divine favor, I often have the highest to-hit at the table.
But not everybody can do that.
What are the best ways to keep your to-hit up if you want to smack people around as a:
Druid?
Magus?
Bard?
Inquisitor?Weapon focus makes up for the first point of BAB loss, but presumably if you want to keep up you then need something more at 5th or so, then more at 9th.
So for those of you who like to wade into melee (or use a bow, I suppose) as a half-BAB character, what are your preferred methods of keeping your attacks relevant?
Interesting that you don't mention monks and rogues, who are also 3/4 BAB...
Especially as the thing is, all of the spellcasting classes you list (as well as Alchemist and Oracle) have a means of boosting their to-hit via spells or similarly related class abilities (Bard Song, Judgements).
Monks and Rogues are supposed to be comparable to these classes in combat. And theoretically, they should be better at combat, not worse, because they are not spellcasters and don't have to split their focus. But they have no way of boosting their to-hit save for the same thing everyone can do, which is to try to get flanking bonuses when possible and boost up attack-bonus related ability scores when possible -- and hope a fellow party member will buff you.
I feel like I am one of few posters who like monks and rogues (especially rogues) and see merits in the classes (even if also flaws) but this is one disparity that really hasn't been addressed.
Of course. I'm partial to Oracle. Flawed in so many ways, but a fun class just the same. Grossly powerful if you're Half-Elf.
What's Possible:
Feats: weapon focus, weapon finesse.
ST or DX potions, or spells.
Class features/archtypes.
Stat bumps at leveling.
Magic Items.
Weapon Enhancements.
you can make a non-wildshaping melee druid- just take this archetype
as for other 3/4 classes:
oracle advice was good- its all about choosing the right mystery/revelations
summoner- build a good eidolon (you only exist to buff it and, eventually, Dimension Door it into position to full attack)
alchemist- buff with mutagen and extracts
monk- flurry of blows (automatically raises BAB to full progression)
ninja- stealth/vanish to attack unaware opponents (grants a bonus to hit and robs enemy of Dex bonus, usually)
rogue- as ninja, but less successfully (waste a bunch of feats to either dip shadow dancer or pick up improved eldritch heritage [shadow] to make this reasonable)
Something that can be adapted to any class, is a 3rd party option. The super genius games archetype the Weapon Champion. With it you trade out a set suite of abilities for one of the archetypes, in this case the weapon champion.
So the above mentioned cleric could trade out its domains for:
-The ability to treat all weapons in a chosent group as the same for the purposes of feats/proficiencies/abilities etc.
-At each even level you can either add a weapon to the group, get +1 to confirm crits, +1 to a few combat manuevers, +1 to cmd against some combat manuevers or +1 to intimidate when armed with the weapon
But most importantly
-at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th and 19th levels you can: add +1 to attack and damage with the weapon group, +1 shield bonus to ac when armed with weapon, increase the damage dealt on crits, or gain a +1 to will saves when armed with the weapon
That means you can essentially get weapon training at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels. That would keep any class' to hit up.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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you can make a non-wildshaping melee druid- just take this archetype
Haha, nice. :)
Guys, my list of classes wasn't meant to be exhaustive. Just kind of tossed out the ones I'd been pondering lately.
Sure. All I'm saying is it's a particular challenge to keep the hit bonus up for non-spellcasting d8 classes, so your original question is particularly pertinent to those classes.
you can make a non-wildshaping melee druid- just take this archetypeHaha, nice. :)
One of my favorite characters uses that archetype and I love it.
That melee friendly PrC works too(name escaples me). But, with the new rules interpretation on PrC prerequisites it looks promising if you don't mind screwing up your DCs.
A druid with a twist...
i like your build, but why tengu? druids are already proficient with scimitar, there are lots of races that give +2 Dex, and something like aasimar or tiefling would let you pick up arcane strike for a little extra damage?
I think inquisitor’s buff REALLY FAST. I just posted this avatar in another another thread.
Duncan can rock a to hit at level 10 of
Bab +7
STR18 +4
Cracked Pale green prism +1
+1 Furious Bastardsword (increases to +3 when raging)
Rage Subdomain +2 (+4 morale to str,free action)
Justice Judgement +4 (3 plus favored dwarven bonus, swift action)
Divine Favor +4 (+3 for CL plus fortune favor trait, standard action)
Which is a to hit of +25-2PA and 1d10+3(enhancement)+9(2 hand str)+4 (divine favor)+6PA+4 (destruction)= about 31 per hit assuming rolling a 5.
All with a SINGLE round to buff for
Rage
Justice, Destruction judgement
Divine Favor,
In the second round he could stack gtr bane (he is considered 15th level for Bane Baldric) for another +2 to attack and 4d6 damage.
Compared to a 2 handed fighter, Greatsword
Bab +10
22str +6
Cracked Pale green prism +1
Gtr Wpn Fcs/wpn spec +2
WPN Training +2
+2 Greatsword +2
Gloves of Dueling +2 for an attack of + +25-3PA
Damage is 2d6+2+9+2+2+2+9= 32 damage per hit assuming rolling ave 6.
So in one round an inquisitor can basically equal the fighter's to hit and damage.
Given a second round he passes it with Bane.
Clerics can't do this as quickly.
I really feel magus should not be using arcane accuracy like is so commonly suggested. I personally feel it is just bad. Why? because it is used to offset the -'s from power attack (without using power attack the Magus need not really worry about to hit.)
Here is why PA+AA is well bad.
It cost you one feat and an arcana to learn. To use it is 1AP and a swift action. Since Magus 1 hand it maxs out at +8 damage.
Now lets say you instead go arcane strike feat.
The cost is one feat to learn and a swift action to use. It maxes at +5. So yes slightly less damage for a great deal less cost.
Now with the AP you are not blowing you can spell recall more and not run out of spell strikes and have to resort to two handing your weapon which is an argument the pro power attacks use.
Even if you are a magus without spell recall then take pool strike. An arcane most people rate poorly without giving it real thought. Yes it does not scale as good as spells but as I said this is for those without recall.
In almost all cases arcane strike + pool strike will be better then two handing PA+AA.
You CAN two hand on a Spellstrike, getting the 1to 3 pay off.
You have to one hand on SPELL COMBAT because it specifically calls out having to keep a hand free.
Cast a touch spell+ Move and Spellstrike two handed is perfectly viable. There have been whole threads on it.
When you cast a touch spell you get a FREE attack to deliver the spell.
You can do this with a 2 handed weapon attack.
Also, I wrote one of the Magus guides.
Yes Arcane Accuracy can offset PA but it does more.
If the magus or Hexcrafter (from my guide) is prioritizing INT then str you can aim for an INT of 30 by endgame (starting with 17 int or better)
Your int bonus is worth more than the penalty from PA. Starting with an INT bonus of +3 and PA-1 is a net gain of +2 to hit AND 2 or 3 damage.
Vs
Arcane Strike which is +0 to hit and +1 damage.
It outscales arcane strike as well.
By 20
Arcane Accuracy (30 int) adds +10 to hit and PA is -5 for 10 to 15 bonus damage depending on 1 or 2 hands.
Arcane Strike is +5 Damage only and adds nothing to hit.
With any 3/4 BAB char, usually only the first iterative hits and the others more than likely miss.
Dropping a net gain +5 to hit by AA+PA makes it more likely that extra wpn+20 nonlethal damage Frostbite iterative IS gonna hit.
An extra hit is worth more than a damage bonus.
That's why stuff like haste is more valuable.
In nearly all circumstances a buff to hit is worth more than a comparative flat bonus.
Str Ranger watch your attitude. I know how the magus works fully good and well. Though that likely should have said spell stike/combat rather then just using spell combat as a general term.
I have also seen your guide and unless you have updated it since last I saw its also not valid. Spell combat (or was it spellstrike? Have forgotten atm.) does not work with prehensile hair. I wish it did but as for a FAQ it does not.
So the crux of your argument is to burn AP all the time to offset dumping into one score? Well sure that might work on a 15 min work day game. But in games run right where you have to mind your resources? Not so much.
Didn't realize I was was giving off attitude, merely trying to expand upon AA.
As for the prehensile Hair not working, like you not clarifying spell combat/Spellstrike, I did not fully expand when I said "I wrote one of the magus guides"
The correct sentence would be, I wrote 90% the Guide creating the Blaster and Melee Transmorgifist builds. Later I allowed Mathwei Ap Niall to co author it because I did not have time to keep it up to date.
The prehensile Hair Defiler build was his creation not mine. It worked fine at the time it was written but has been errata'd as not viable.
No the guide is not up to date, I only rarely post nowadays and will occasionally add a note to the guide. I have not messed with Mathwei's passages in case HE chooses to try and fix his build.
In any case, I make no judgements on how well you know the magus class.
As for the 15min nova work day?
That is the point of being a Hexcrafter.
If you use Slumber and the other good hexes on appropriate foes it allows the endurance to Save your Pool points to go nuts on a big bad when you need to.
I have played Hexcrafters in table top and PbP games and have rarely ever ran out of pool points. I slumber+CdG low will mooks and brusiers and go to town on things I can't effect with that.
Cheers. ;)
End of derail.
Now in the spirit of THIS thread.
A 10th level STR magus (going moonlight stalker) looking at
BaB + 7
STR16+BELT(2) +4
+2 Weapon + 2
Arcane Pool +3
Gtr Invisibility +1
Moonlight Stalker +2
Cracked Pale green prism +1
Attack roll of +20-2PA
Available on the 1st round.
Cast Gtr Invisibility (standard, Moonlight Stalker takes effect)
Enhance wpn (swift)
Now this averages 4 to 5 less than the Inquisitor BUT the magus can actually do this as part of a full attack. If one strike hits he is in front.
On round 2 (when the inquisitor could full attack) the magus who is already rocking 50% miss chance can BURST damage a 10d6 Intensified SG (+3 to hit a metal wearing foe) in addition to his 1d6+4str+5 enhancement+2 feat damage. Outrunning an Inquisitor or fighter. And If he decides to full attack he can use AA for adding his +5 or +6 int mod.
Or he could drop a Rime Frostbite instead for a flat +10 non lethal and Debuffing the enemy.
To hit for a Magus doesn't scale quite as well as a inquisitor or fighter but his payoffs can be Way bigger if you pick the right spell.
There are certain things like weapon focus or cracked green prisms which help all classes scale their to hit in line with a fighter. But Most classes need specific spell feat combos to really keep up. Doable but certainly not universal.
The method a druid uses is way different to a Barbarian for example.
@rory- i'm all for making decisions based on fun/preference instead of to min/max, i was just curious if tengu was somehow important to the build since you had called it out specifically...
(though, in point of fact, Magical Talent does not scale with your HD, it only increases if you already have a caster level)
From the Hexcrafter advice thread.
We may have to remove or least redefine the defiler.
a rime frostbite enforcer build seems the most viable.
currently it loads entangled, fatigued and shaken on a single hit.
plus your level in non lethal damage. it is a good trick and not very resource intensive.Not anymore, SKR just included Prehensile hair as a valid choice for spellcombat. The defiler build is back in action and works like it used too!!
I'll update the hexcrafter guide and get to work on adding more juicy goodness to it from the new books.
Haven't seen the link yet but maybe worth checking for those who are interested in whether or not the hair build works.
Humm you know STR Ranger. Perhaps I took your post a bit to seriously. Sorry for that.
I still personally find the build and arcane point cost of using power attack and arcane accuracy is just to high.
Given most combats last 3-5 rounds then a fair number of uses is about 3 a combat. A day should see 4 encounters. (this system was in fact built on the idea of 4 encounters a day. When you don't classes that are meant to be balanced by limited resources become even more powerful.) so that is 12ap a day to keep up the numbers you are throwing out. Which is of course more then a magus will have at most lvls and leaves nothing for recalling.
There is no way it is sustainable. Now for one specific build that's less of a worry because you have hexes to fall back on. But for most Magi that's not the case.
Wait...? Did something get changed about the "natural attacks with spell combat must me related to a hand use. (so pretty much just claws.)" thing? I have always wanted to do the hair magus thing and would be interested if so. I have a hard time keeping up with FAQs anymore.
Didn't realize I was was giving off attitude,
You weren't and that was a great explanation. Makes me want to read your guide.
Sweet.
You can find it by looking in the guides to the guides.
There are 2 Magus Guides. Walter's guide to the Magus and mine, Hexcrafter: The complete guide to dealing with the devil.
@Stome. Your sustainably point is certainly valid for a normal magus, and since it was a normal magus you were discussing is totally on.
For Hexcrafters it applies less since they get more endurance from hexes and don't gain spell recall till level 11. They have incentive to save PP because they don't get the key ability normal magai spend their points on (after enhancing their weapon of course).
I would not say Hexcrafters are a corner case but there are certainly more standard magai being played than this archetype.
Yeah I would not say corner case either. Also as a random thing I am pleased you pointed out moonlight stalker. It has become one of my favorite feats as of late and is very relevant to this thread.
All 3/4 BaB classes can benefit greatly from this feat. Even if they don't have spells to grant the needed concealment cloak of minor displacement can make it always on.
Anyway I all going to stop randomly derailing this thread. Discussions about things I think are overrated or underrated for a Magus I could and should do elsewhere.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Also as a random thing I am pleased you pointed out moonlight stalker. It has become one of my favorite feats as of late and is very relevant to this thread.
Interesting! On the one hand, it would definitely help a 3/4 BAB class make up the gap (2 points is 8 levels' worth). On the other hand, costing 3 feats sort of screams "FIGHTER", since the earliest anyone else could get it would be 5th, and that's if they don't need ANY other feats in the meantime.
I suppose an Eldritch Knight might like it (using his two bonus feats to help with it) if he's not investing in Arcane Armor Training/Mastery. An Arcane Trickster might be able to handle it too, using rogue talents to pick some stuff up. (Is there a talent for either of the prereqs individually, or would you be limited to Combat Trick?)
Well to be honest I don't really feel it is something overly needed to be gained before lvl 5. Of course that means you are cutting out other feats perhaps but honestly one one of the feats is a dead feat. Blind fight is useful enough on its own.
Though a bit more on the topic of getting into it easier.
A combat bard that takes a small dip into dragon disciple can get blind fight as a bonus feat. If they are perhaps an archeologist they can take the rogue talent that you mentioned. So that build has a very easy time getting it. (happens to be a build I am playing atm.)
Magus of course gets a few bonus feats so its not too hard to fit it in there.
I can not say for sure but I would not be surprised if inquisitor can get a domain/Inquisitions (there is to many of them for be to dig through at the moment.)
I am pretty sure rogue is sadly limited to the one combat trick as I don't think either can be gained from other talents. Not that I recall anyway. Though honestly a dip into fighter can be pretty helpful for a rogue. There are many archetypes that offer some damn good abilities at lvl 3. Like weapon master that gets weapon training earlier then other fighters. giving access to the much loved Gloves of Dueling.
Anyway in the end it equates to what one could get from weapon focus, greater weapon focus, and weapon specialization for the same number of feats and without having to be a fighter. Plus you get blind fight as a bonus.
Rogues can make use of it.
Without using wands of Blur which are cheap;) the hide in plain sight talent is good.
Rangers for the same reason.
Best for it are Magus
Who gets bonus feats+ concealment spells
Inquisitors get concealment spells and darkness domain Clerics who get Blindfight for free.
It is 3 feats for +2 to attack and damage.
Guess what? So is wpn fcs, gtr and wpn spec.