I feel strangely disenchanted with this adventure path. I was really looking forward to it, but since I got to look at the Mythic Adventures rules, my interest has dropped to virtually zero, even though the setting and theme are certainly interesting. Well, OK, Deskari's design doesn't really grip me for a major demon lord of the setting, but the whole Worldwound/Mendev setup is fascinating enough. But I really can't see me playing a campaign using the mythic rules. Calling these rules over the top doesn't even do it justice. Pathfinder PCs are already superheroes enough in my eyes at level 7 at the latest, and supercharging them with these rules breaks any sense of credibility for me. I can't even really bring myself to read the character rules any further. I actually gave up reading when I got to the totally ridiculous archmage path arcana power Arcane Surge. This is just insane in my eyes. And I haven't even cracked open my copy of The Worldwound Incursion or looked at the PDF. I just can't bring myself to do it. I feel even more disinterested then I felt when Carrion Crown and then Jade Regent came out. And I don't even understand it. Very strange.
Am I the only one to feel this way?
I feel the opposite. I'm happy to see some of the cool abilities that most of the martials couldn't do before that they can now. Strength like Samson? Jumping like a Dragoon? Tricky like Anansi? I personally can't wait to run or play in a mythic campaign.
I'm fine so far. The actual first module was excellent and I am very interested if the developers will manage to properly challenge mythic player characters in later levels, especially when they got 4+ mythic tiers under their belt and are over level 10.
For me, a mythic game would be a completely different game. A superhero game, no longer a fantasy game.
I can't remember that dragoons had any special jumping skills, and I'm not sure how mounted infantry would benefit from jumping.
The dragoon I'm talking about is more like the ones from Final Fantasy.
And mythic certainly fits with games like Final Fantasy, where the fantasy characters do crazy things like leaping in the air and slamming people, or fighting God.
It certainly is a more superpowered game. Like Hercules, or Final Fantasy, or the dramatization of Romance of the Three Kingdoms. You can't really be Hercules in standard D&D, at least not without magic items.
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For me, a mythic game would be a completely different game. A superhero game, no longer a fantasy game.
I can't remember that dragoons had any special jumping skills, and I'm not sure how mounted infantry would benefit from jumping.
You're not thinking about the Dragoons Odraude is thinking about.
OK, I wouldn't know about stuff like that.
the bump in power is kind of necessary though, if you want to actually stand a chance of not getting annihilated by Deskari or his more prominent minions. The alternative would be to tone down the threat a lot (which given how Sarkoris is described, and how you actually spend a chunk of the AP in the Abyss) which would be hard to sell, or just revamp the AP so they never take on the demon lord or close the Worldwound...which would be underwhelming (see Carrion Crown, where you fight the Whispering Way BUT never face off against Tar Baphon, just prevent his release).
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Some of the mythic abilties seem quite gamebreaking, and arcane surge is one of the worst offenders, but your enemies will be extremly powerfull too. After reading the first - awesome - adventure, I can say, that it is far to early to judge the adventure path.
That said, I be pleased to get some rules on stacking abilties on top of each other: mythic meteor swarm + potent + metamagic wand maximize spell is pretty nasty. My main problem with this partular spell forces 4 separete saving throws, and rerolls are usually immediate actions.
Of course augemtning the spell at tier 10 and using arcane surge seem like overkill at this point.
But yeah I wonder how hard the fights will be in the last adventure, and how much time to rest the party will get.
Given what you can spend points on, I'd hazard to say that there is still enough resource management with the mythic points that they won't be using it at every chance. Most notably for spell casters, Surges and casting Mythic Versions of spells. That was something I found to be a limitation during the playtest. Do I want to save that point to use Arcane Surge, or deal with the fact that I failed a save?
Some of the mythic abilties seem quite gamebreaking, and arcane surge is one of the worst offenders, but your enemies will be extremly powerfull too. After reading the first - awesome - adventure, I can say, that it is far to early to judge the adventure path.
That said, I be pleased to get some rules on stacking abilties on top of each other: mythic meteor swarm + potent + metamagic wand maximize spell is pretty nasty. My main problem with this partular spell forces 4 separete saving throws, and rerolls are usually immediate actions.
Of course augemtning the spell at tier 10 and using arcane surge seem like overkill at this point.
But yeah I wonder how hard the fights will be in the last adventure, and how much time to rest the party will get.
Couldn't find it anywhere. What is the Potent ability?
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It's the Hulk Hogan of Adventure Paths.
Hah! The Bag's got it! ;)
Since I've only purchased and read the first part, it's hard to say how this AP will turn out to be. However, I really like the mythic rules, and the PCs (all 9th and 10th lvl) in my FR campaign just earned their first mythic tier! As I said, I like how the rules seem to work and interact/mesh with the rest of the mechanics, but it remains to be seen how they affect gameplay and balance (especially between mythic PCs vs. non-mythic monsters and NPCs).
I certainly understand that rules like these are necessary to play a game like this campaign, but that is exactly the point. These rules seem so over the top to me, and do not look like fun to me. Once characters gain even the first mythic tier, non-mythic opponents will be no more than speed bumps for them, especially if the characters are even only moderately optimized. And a whole campaign presenting only mythic opponents seems somehow silly to me, and looks like an excessive ars race.
And, alas, this month's products are all mythic supplements only, and much of October's, too (or worse, as is Blood of the Moon). Ah well.
Well, it's not to everyone's taste. Some people love the chance at fighting bigger and badder things. I think non-mythic character can still be relevant as badguys, however, you'd have you either use more of them or have them as a higher CR. We'd have to see with the later installments.
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I feel strangely disenchanted with this adventure path. I was really looking forward to it, but since I got to look at the Mythic Adventures rules, my interest has dropped to virtually zero, even though the setting and theme are certainly interesting. Well, OK, Deskari's design doesn't really grip me for a major demon lord of the setting, but the whole Worldwound/Mendev setup is fascinating enough. But I really can't see me playing a campaign using the mythic rules. Calling these rules over the top doesn't even do it justice. Pathfinder PCs are already superheroes enough in my eyes at level 7 at the latest, and supercharging them with these rules breaks any sense of credibility for me. I can't even really bring myself to read the character rules any further. I actually gave up reading when I got to the totally ridiculous archmage path arcana power Arcane Surge. This is just insane in my eyes. And I haven't even cracked open my copy of The Worldwound Incursion or looked at the PDF. I just can't bring myself to do it. I feel even more disinterested then I felt when Carrion Crown and then Jade Regent came out. And I don't even understand it. Very strange.
Am I the only one to feel this way?
I actually felt like you after reading the playtest rules for Mythic, and I was really thinking about giving the AP exactly one chance with the first adventure, and then if it wasn't good enough just skip the AP. I agree that Mythic is over the top.
Which is why I recommend that you give the first adventure a read. I think it is not only well done, it's far more than that - it pulled off the only way that a mythic campaign could look without being silly. It accomplished this feat by doing something incredibly wise - "The Worldwound incursion" is hands down the most over the top low level adventure I ever read. It opens up with events that most low level PCs should die just from the proximity to. It continues in a more sane pace through the midsection of the story... and then suddenly, at the end of the adventure, do you know how the PCs receive their first mythic rank?
This really helped me to mentally shift gears. This is not just a regular campaign with an unusually powerful boss at the end, where mythic is just plugged in. This is the biggest story told in an AP yet, and the scope will certainly match the new rules.
Seriously, give it a read. It's worth your time.
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Couldn't find it anywhere. What is the Potent ability?Some of the mythic abilties seem quite gamebreaking, and arcane surge is one of the worst offenders, but your enemies will be extremly powerfull too. After reading the first - awesome - adventure, I can say, that it is far to early to judge the adventure path.
That said, I be pleased to get some rules on stacking abilties on top of each other: mythic meteor swarm + potent + metamagic wand maximize spell is pretty nasty. My main problem with this partular spell forces 4 separete saving throws, and rerolls are usually immediate actions.
Of course augemtning the spell at tier 10 and using arcane surge seem like overkill at this point.
But yeah I wonder how hard the fights will be in the last adventure, and how much time to rest the party will get.
Page 80, it is an option when casting a mythic spell.
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Am I the only one to feel this way?
I'm kinda the opposite. I didn't read/participate in the Mythic playtest, so the book/PDF was my first exposure to the Mythic rules. I like how Paizo made them stackable, instead of just tacking them on starting at "level 21." But i also thought (from skimming them) that they looked over the top.
I had no real interest in the Worldwound and was kinda "meh" on the idea of the adventure path in general (I GM'd my group through STAP so we've don the demon lord thing already). However, I read the The Worldwound Incursion and I'm very impressed with how they pulled it off. It's over the top, but in a cool way. The opening scenes really did it for me and it doesn't even get Mythic until the very end (IIRC the heroes don't really get to start being Mythic until Chapter 2).
You really should read Chapter 1; it's quite good. It took me from "meh" to "I might run this." If you read it and it's still not your thing, that's ok. This isn't the new baseline for Paizo.
-Skeld
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I certainly understand that rules like these are necessary to play a game like this campaign, but that is exactly the point. These rules seem so over the top to me, and do not look like fun to me.
Not saying you have to like the rules. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but did you really stop reading the character rules at the first power of the first mythic path (a power which is just one option of three)? That hardly seems like giving them a fair reading. Maybe try the section on GMing mythic games and see the advice they give or something like that. It seems sad to toss the rules out without actually digging into the whole book.
I've got a group that's primed to play this, we're just looking to schedule our first session now.
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I actually gave up reading when I got to the totally ridiculous archmage path arcana power Arcane Surge. This is just insane in my eyes.
Hmm? Recast a prepared spell or spell known, with no metamagic and with only increased certainty, as opposed to total certainty, that the spell will connect? That honestly seems underwhelming to me. It would seem to work best on a save or die build, but by the save or die spells come online at either level 9 or level 11, depending on whether you consider baleful polymorph a save or die spell or not. So unless you get Mythic power at or near that point, or after, you're walking around with a fairly minor boost to damage spells that is trumped by metamagic. Not to mention that most of Arcane Surge's functionality can be replicated with the Eldritch Breach archmage path ability.
If you're going to object to an archmage arcana, Wild Magic is much more ridiculous.
Give Mythic Adventures a test run. I did that with my group and I have to say I was quite surprised at the power of Mythic Characters. I figured it would be over the top and insane. I found it quite the opposite. Caster weren't any more powerful. The martial character gained a lot and more mobile in combat. The mythic monsters templates made things challenging.
I have to say I'm quite impressed with mythic. So much so that I think some of the mythic rules could be core rule fixing martial characters weakness that everyone likes to complain about.
Also for the AP, you aren't required to use Mythic. The first book is not mythic at all till the end. Book two and onwards will have side bars for playing non mythic characters in the AP. So if don't like the Mythic rules and still want to run the AP you can.
Well I'm not sure I would have run this AP even if the MA rules were more to my liking, as I'm not a big fan of very high power game play. And there is no danger that I'm running out of adventure paths to run, even though I have three groups. It takes us two years at least to finish an AP, so they will always come out faster then I can run them. It's just that I was originally interested in at least reading the adventures, but now I think I'm I afraid the "overthetopness" of it all will only annoy me.
Hmm? Recast a prepared spell or spell known, with no metamagic and with only increased certainty, as opposed to total certainty, that the spell will connect? That honestly seems underwhelming to me
I don't understand what you mean by "as opposed to total certainty"? Using a spell with this ability means non-mythic creatures need to make two saves and take the worse one. It's annoying enough that ill omen or Misfortune exist, this on top is just too much.
*** SPOILER ***
Sounds even more like a superhero origin comic than a fantasy story to me.
And if you say that the non-mythic part of the campaign is already over the top, than I'm really not sure I want to see the part where all dams of common sense are broken
I'm not sure why you bother with APs then seeing they last to level 17 on average. Why not just run lower-level modules?
Personally, I enjoy it when the players reach the middle levels. At this point they won't die from one unlucky blow (usually). They also have enough power to do some rather interesting things. And I'm curious as to how the two groups I'm currently running will do with Runelords and RoW when they reach the upper levels. I'm more than willing enough to fudge things so it remains a challenging and interesting fight, even though I know this is horrifically wrong in the eyes of some. ;)
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It's annoying enough that ill omen or Misfortune exist, this on top is just too much.
Why? A save or die build or a blasting build is already making use of spells items and abilities that boost its own DCs as high as they'll go and diminish foes' chances of saving as low as they'll go. As you point out, this power can be replicated by a level 1 spell (and the way these abilities are worded, they don't stack with each other or with Arcane Surge), never mind the path ability I pointed out. Moreover, that level 1 spell does not require Mythic power to use.
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Zaister, as Skeld said, it's at least far more coherent and internally consistent than the 3E epic level rules. And the PCs gain their power in small steps, as decreed by the GM.
I tried the epic levels in 3E for a short while, and my quite optimized paladin got his *** kicked in every battle. What made it worse, his Cha 22 was far too low to qualify for most of the paladin feats, so I had to ask our wizard to create me the book that would grant me a hefty inherent bonus (we were killed in the next adventure, so this actually never took place). Truth be told, most of the stuff (walking on clouds, hitting AC 80+ and crafting spells that required DC 120 skill checks) were apparently made for level 40+ PCs, which was just disappointing.
Paizo's approach is radically different, and it remains to be seen how it affects gameplay at higher levels. I'd assume the difference between 5th level mythic and non-mythic characters and monsters is not that bad; however, at 10th level it might be another story, and I don't think I'm going to switch using mythic adversaries only (it wouldn't even make any sense, storywise).
Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all saying the MA rules are bad. I just think these rules change the game so radically, that – to me – it's basically a different game, and it's not really a game that I think I'd have fun running.
zimmerwald1915, I'm not thinking in "builds" or other terminology of optimzing. That is just not he way I look at the game, and "theorycrafting" is irrelevant to my issue.
Am I the only one to feel this way?I'm kinda the opposite. I didn't read/participate in the Mythic playtest, so the book/PDF was my first exposure to the Mythic rules. I like how Paizo made them stackable, instead of just tacking them on starting at "level 21." But i also thought (from skimming them) that they looked over the top.
I had no real interest in the Worldwound and was kinda "meh" on the idea of the adventure path in general (I GM'd my group through STAP so we've don the demon lord thing already). However, I read the The Worldwound Incursion and I'm very impressed with how they pulled it off. It's over the top, but in a cool way. The opening scenes really did it for me and it doesn't even get Mythic until the very end (IIRC the heroes don't really get to start being Mythic until Chapter 2).
You really should read Chapter 1; it's quite good. It took me from "meh" to "I might run this." If you read it and it's still not your thing, that's ok. This isn't the new baseline for Paizo.
-Skeld
What is STAP?
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Savage Tide Adventure Path. The last Adventure Path Paizo published as part of Dungeon Magazine.
It's chief present relevance being that the BBEG in it was also a Demon Lord, in this case, Demogorgon.
And it also involved adventuring in the Abyss at later levels.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all saying the MA rules are bad. I just think these rules change the game so radically, that – to me – it's basically a different game, and it's not really a game that I think I'd have fun running.
zimmerwald1915, I'm not thinking in "builds" or other terminology of optimzing. That is just not he way I look at the game, and "theorycrafting" is irrelevant to my issue.
Then just don't worry about it :) As you said there are plenty of other APs to run and more on the way. This one's not your cup of tea? Well, as long as no one in your groups are iching to play, then I say just move on and don't give it any more thought.
I will say though that I'm reading through Mythic Adventures mow and, for the right kind of campaign, it's a great book!
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zimmerwald1915, I'm not thinking in "builds" or other terminology of optimzing. That is just not he way I look at the game, and "theorycrafting" is irrelevant to my issue.
You objected to this particular ability as being too strong for the game. Since the game admits similar effects, either that is just not true, or Pathfinder was woefully broken before Mythic Adventures came out and the book doesn't actually change anything on that score (probably the latter).
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Frankly it all comes down to what kind of game you want to run and/or play.
I play & run Pathfinder games often alongside playing in an Exalted game. Exalted starts out over the top, and many people just don't care for that. Likewise, Mythic Adventures are optional rules at any game table.
Personally I love a game that goes from zero to legendary, and WotR is a solid happy place for me, in terms of story and power levels.
Savage Tide Adventure Path. The last Adventure Path Paizo published as part of Dungeon Magazine.
It's chief present relevance being that the BBEG in it was also a Demon Lord, in this case, Demogorgon.
And it also involved adventuring in the Abyss at later levels.
Savage Tide Adventure Path. The last Adventure Path Paizo published as part of Dungeon Magazine.
It's chief present relevance being that the BBEG in it was also a Demon Lord, in this case, Demogorgon.
And it also involved adventuring in the Abyss at later levels.
I C, I have the Savage Tide and read it, pretty good stuff especially with Igwilv.
I feel strangely disenchanted with this adventure path. I was really looking forward to it, but since I got to look at the Mythic Adventures rules, my interest has dropped to virtually zero, even though the setting and theme are certainly interesting. Well, OK, Deskari's design doesn't really grip me for a major demon lord of the setting, but the whole Worldwound/Mendev setup is fascinating enough. But I really can't see me playing a campaign using the mythic rules. Calling these rules over the top doesn't even do it justice. Pathfinder PCs are already superheroes enough in my eyes at level 7 at the latest, and supercharging them with these rules breaks any sense of credibility for me. I can't even really bring myself to read the character rules any further. I actually gave up reading when I got to the totally ridiculous archmage path arcana power Arcane Surge. This is just insane in my eyes. And I haven't even cracked open my copy of The Worldwound Incursion or looked at the PDF. I just can't bring myself to do it. I feel even more disinterested then I felt when Carrion Crown and then Jade Regent came out. And I don't even understand it. Very strange.
Am I the only one to feel this way?
Some people just love power creep.
Think of it like video games - some people like Splinter Cell while some people like the one-on-one fighter games where you can get ultra-combos for landing 60 blows in less than five seconds sending your opponent flying through the air before kicking him 100 times on their way down.
Just depends on what you consider to be 'role-play'. Me, I could play every campaign in a low magic setting up to 12th level and never get higher and still have a rich, wonderful and satisfying role-playing experience. For some people the game just doesn't get going until the teens.
My attitude has always been that I can't judge what's fun for others, but I won't play with these people because - in MY opinion - they are completely missing the point which is not fun for me.
I'm excited about this AP after reading the WWI, as is my group, but reading the epic rules I'll admit to being concerned... and to wondering, couldn't the same story be told simply by powering down the threats rather than escalating the PC's to walking Gods? James says no, and I have to respect that perspective, but at the end of the day, +10 attack to hit AC 20 is the exact same challenge as +40 attack to hit AC 50... so why the need for all the bloating and inflation?
Each to his own. I've said it before... campaigns that read like the Lord of the Rings movies or the Game of Thrones TV series is more my speed and the very definition of role-play in my opinion. At the end of the day its GOT to be about character, not bad-ass gear, not super powers, but character, and with a great character all of those things inevitably fade to the background as they should. Luke Skywalker was less about light-sabers and force-choking people and more about discovering his heritage and redeeming his father, no? Awesome magical gear and bad-ass super-powers is no replacement for the cooperative story-telling that role-playing is meant to be. We have video games for that other stuff and they do it very, very well.
EDIT: I'd like to take a moment to concur with others in this thread, in that tWWI was a superbly written AP-opener with an excellent 'introduction' to the Mythic concept... so much so that its given me justification to at least try things out. I also agree that the Mythic rules are far and away the best 'Epic' version of a ruleset that I've seen. Its just that epic play always seemed to over-the-top anyway, and a new and improved way to do something I don't feel we should be doing in the first place simply holds little appeal to me.
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I'm excited about this AP after reading the WWI, as is my group, but reading the epic rules I'll admit to being concerned... and to wondering, couldn't the same story be told simply by powering down the threats rather than escalating the PC's to walking Gods? James says no, and I have to respect that perspective, but at the end of the day, +10 attack to hit AC 20 is the exact same challenge as +40 attack to hit AC 50... so why the need for all the bloating and inflation?
I'm having a hard time articulating the thoughts in my head, so forgive me if this isn't as clear as it should be...
It's a matter of perspective. Golarion has an established baseline for typical NPC (and PC) power. You could do what you're saying and scale back the threats, but if it's a normally scaled threat then why haven't the crusader armies been able to crush it already? By scaling the numbers and abilities, you're matching the mechanics to the established narrative. The threats in the Worldwound are such that even normal PCs aren't able to deal with them. Is it over the top? Sure. The established situation though asks for over-the-top though because it's a threat of a magnitude that no normal hero could deal with.
I'm excited about this AP after reading the WWI, as is my group, but reading the epic rules I'll admit to being concerned... and to wondering, couldn't the same story be told simply by powering down the threats rather than escalating the PC's to walking Gods? James says no, and I have to respect that perspective, but at the end of the day, +10 attack to hit AC 20 is the exact same challenge as +40 attack to hit AC 50... so why the need for all the bloating and inflation?I'm having a hard time articulating the thoughts in my head, so forgive me if this isn't as clear as it should be...
It's a matter of perspective. Golarion has an established baseline for typical NPC (and PC) power. You could do what you're saying and scale back the threats, but if it's a normally scaled threat then why haven't the crusader armies been able to crush it already? By scaling the numbers and abilities, you're matching the mechanics to the established narrative. The threats in the Worldwound are such that even normal PCs aren't able to deal with them. Is it over the top? Sure. The established situation though asks for over-the-top though because it's a threat of a magnitude that no normal hero could deal with.
You have to understand that I'm worried far less about maintaining Golarion's internal consistency at my table than I am in ensuring that my player's game experience is everything they want it to be. I absolutely understand James and the designers broader scope of prorities.
The argument isn't against this particular AP nor how its being implemented... its against high-powered gaming as the best means by which to enjoy role-play. And its not a new argument, nor one with a right or wrong answer... merely differing preferences and perspectives.
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I'm excited about this AP after reading the WWI, as is my group, but reading the epic rules I'll admit to being concerned... and to wondering, couldn't the same story be told simply by powering down the threats rather than escalating the PC's to walking Gods? James says no, and I have to respect that perspective, but at the end of the day, +10 attack to hit AC 20 is the exact same challenge as +40 attack to hit AC 50... so why the need for all the bloating and inflation?I'm having a hard time articulating the thoughts in my head, so forgive me if this isn't as clear as it should be...
It's a matter of perspective. Golarion has an established baseline for typical NPC (and PC) power. You could do what you're saying and scale back the threats, but if it's a normally scaled threat then why haven't the crusader armies been able to crush it already? By scaling the numbers and abilities, you're matching the mechanics to the established narrative. The threats in the Worldwound are such that even normal PCs aren't able to deal with them. Is it over the top? Sure. The established situation though asks for over-the-top though because it's a threat of a magnitude that no normal hero could deal with.
You have to understand that I'm worried far less about maintaining Golarion's internal consistency at my table than I am in ensuring that my player's game experience is everything they want it to be. I absolutely understand James and the designers broader scope of prorities.
The argument isn't against this particular AP nor how its being implemented... its against high-powered gaming as the best means by which to enjoy role-play. And its not a new argument, nor one with a right or wrong answer... merely differing preferences and perspectives.
I'm not "your players" obviously, but if I were playing in an AP that's about a world-threatening demonic invasion from Abyss and has Balors taking down Great Wyrm Silver Dragons in the opening seconds of episode 1, I'd sure prefer to finish it as a reality-warping superhero battling battalions of Balors and having demon lords for supper.
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Fair enough if you're not worried about maintaining the world's internal consistency. For my personal preference, that's something I would want done to reinforce the "logic" of the world. Different groups like different levels of reinforcement on that front though.
Going back to your earlier post, you're right that the powers aren't the story, but they are integral to facilitating the story. To go to you example of Luke Skywalker, the story itself is about him discovering his heritage, his father, all that. By I would suggest that the powers and the lightsaber don't fade into the background as much as you suggest. The lightsaber belonged to his father, it's a visible reminder of that heritage that his story is about. His Jedi abilities facilitate dealing with certain challenges he encounters in the story, especially the early scenes in Return of the Jedi revolving around the rescue of Han. Dealing with the guards to get into Jabba's palace and the fight over the Sarlacc are both examples of his powers facilitating the story and helping him deal with the challenges he faces.
In this AP, the characters powers fill the same niche. They facilitate the story and aid the characters in dealing with the extreme challenges they're asked to overcome. If a character is nothing but his class and his mythic abilities, then I'd agree there is a problem. But a character who is nothing but the numbers on his character sheet is not a problem unique to high-powered campaigns.
I'm not saying high-powered gaming is the best means to enjoy roleplay nor that high-powered gaming is the way to go in every instance. What I am saying is that a group of characters who will eventually be high-powered (since they don't start that way) is probably one of the better ways to tell this *particular* story.
I'm not "your players" obviously, but if I were playing in an AP that's about a world-threatening demonic invasion from Abyss and has Balors taking down Great Wyrm Silver Dragons in the opening seconds of episode 1, I'd sure prefer to finish it as a reality-warping superhero battling battalions of Balors and having demon lords for supper.
I do not have the first module yet, but I do have the mythic book. I probably won't ever get to run or play this particular path because my group has scattered to the 4 corners of the country. I am not saying I disagree with you personally (I would want the same thing actually), but there are other ways to go about this type of story without mythic characters. Frodo and Sam were not mythic nor did they become that during their quest, but they defeated a mythic foe. Not a lot of people like being a smaller part of a much larger whole story-wise, but it is doable, particularly in a group that places larger emphasis on role play than roll play. (A DM may or may not be able to adjust this path in such a way... this particular path IS about power on a greater scale) I admire DMs and groups that can pull that sort of thing (or any role play heavy campaign) off, as I tend to lean toward the combat side of things as both a DM and player.
While the mythic rules may be optional, I think any DM would have a difficult time making this path non-Mythic, and I think it is unrealistic to expect it "out of the box". Many of the previous adventure paths have optional rules added in (and I feel this is a great feature btw). Caravans in Jade Regent, City/Kingdom building in Kingmaker, Ship Combat in Skull and Shackles, Expeditions in Sperents Skull, etc. Each of those have varying degrees of difficulty in separating them from their associated adventure path. This one is tied to an entire hard cover rule book... can you separate it... sure... but it will be a LOT of work.
Back to the original post... If you don't like the rules and/or the path and/or the supporting products, then save your money for 3 or 4 months and do something else with it. Expecting every product a company produces to be exactly to your tastes is exceedingly unrealistic. Equally unrealistic is that company expecting you to blindly purchase everything they produce. (which I don't think Paizo does at all).
Going back to your earlier post, you're right that the powers aren't the story, but they are integral to facilitating the story. To go to you example of Luke Skywalker, the story itself is about him discovering his heritage, his father, all that. By I would suggest that the powers and the lightsaber don't fade into the background as much as you suggest. The lightsaber belonged to his father, it's a visible reminder of that heritage that his story is about. His Jedi abilities facilitate dealing with certain challenges he encounters in the story, especially the early scenes in Return of the Jedi revolving around the rescue of Han. Dealing with the guards to get into Jabba's palace and the fight over the Sarlacc are both examples of his powers facilitating the story and helping him deal with the challenges he faces.
Heh - to further that analogy even more, when is it exactly that Luke has eight different light-sabers (including hsi father's) that he keeps in his bag of holding and sells at the Jedi store in town to get a double-bladed lightsaber that can fight on its own and shoot laser blasts as well?
.Anyway, I can acknowledge that this might well be the best way to tell this story. It would be both foolish and presumptive to denounce it with certainty when I'm only holding 1/6 of the story arc in my hand. As I said, its just a style of play pet peeve, not an indictment of this particular AP or even Mythic rules. Not everyone feels the way I feel and a great many no doubt love the introduction of this nw rule set that takes already over-powered characters and makes them uber-powered while simultaneously creating uber-powered monsters to fight them...
...just from my perspective, the challenge of a woodsman defeating a bear with his axe after a desperate and bloody battle is exactly the same as a mythic champion of light in celestial battle armor with a glowing sword of dominion smiting a mythic demon lord of the darkest pits after a desperate and bloody battle... the hero's boosted out the wazzu to battle a foe that's boosted out the wazoo, but the challenge is the same. The difference is that everything the bad guy can do is negated by the good guy's magical gear and granted powers which, to my mind, makes the victory one for the gear and the granted powers, not the hero.
And then, of course, there's the level of ridiculousness. Seriously, close your eyes and picture a medium human who's been fighting for about a decade or so with a really cool sword standing toe to toe with a gargantuan four-headed eight-armed monster (so toe to head, actually) who's been fighting for millenia and pin-pricking him to death because... well, you know, the numbers work.
I feel like this is kind of getting away from the OP's intent and I'm sure these arguments have been made many times before, so I'm going to drop the subject (on this thread at least) and proceed with the understanding that, while this is not normally my cup of tea, the first volume of the AP was superbly done and Paizo in general has done more than enough to earn my trust for me to proceed to the rest of the campaign with an open mind.
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for me, Disenchanted isn't the right word, more like Invigorated.
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Of course, there are differences here. Mythic does not equal +40 to hit. In fact, the primary thing Mythic seems to do is increase the number of attacks that the Mythic character gets without any boost to-hit. So a 1st level character with 10 Mythic Tiers isn't going to take on the Tarrasque or even a Jabberwocky. In fact, a level 1 fighter with 10 Mythic Tiers would have at most 80 hit points (and that's fudging on the high side) and probably not much more than a +5 to hit.
As for WotR, you don't get Mythic abilities 'til level 5. I think it's perhaps a cop-out to have the players immediately jump to level 6 upon getting the Mythic abilities (due to the lopsided encounter they suffer at that point) but the GM has the option of altering that and instead forcing the players to level up the old-fashioned way afterward by having the players clean out Kenebres afterward of any remaining demons and cultists.
The game IS playable without Mythic rules. They recommend giving players bonus stat points and running on the Fast Experience chart, along with free Leadership feats, but it's still doable.
Oh, and I recently ran my non-Mythic players up against a Mythic half-fiend Gargoyle. It was able to last several more rounds against the players than it normally would have. ;) And it freaked out the players something fierce! =^-^= ("This thing has a touch of divinity?!? What the #&*(^@?!?")
Am I the only one to feel this way?
I feel the same.
What bothers me most is that the abilities I found most ridiculous are all in the general path. The worst offender, for me, is the one with which you start granting domains to followers. When I read this I came close to turning my back to mythic.I will give this AP it a chance because the guys I game with played all the cool APs without me and this is the only one left.
So as there is no alternative, I'll give it a try. If it turns out as bad as it sounds I can still leave it later.
Am I the only one to feel this way?I feel the same.
What bothers me most is that the abilities I found most ridiculous are all in the general path. The worst offender, for me, is the one with which you start granting domains to followers. When I read this I came close to turning my back to mythic.I will give this AP it a chance because the guys I game with played all the cool APs without me and this is the only one left.
So as there is no alternative, I'll give it a try. If it turns out as bad as it sounds I can still leave it later.
if you're going to be negative about it then you obviously aren't going to give it a chance:) and nobody says you have to allow the power that grants followers spells, which i admit is pretty silly and would not be allowed at my table.
and nobody says you have to allow the power that grants followers spells, which i admit is pretty silly and would not be allowed at my table.
The GM said it is important for the AP and can't be left out.
I really like the fact that I can have domains. I want to play a demigod with people fawning over me. Though remember, it's only Clerics of you that can take the domains, not all worshippers.
and nobody says you have to allow the power that grants followers spells, which i admit is pretty silly and would not be allowed at my table.The GM said it is important for the AP and can't be left out.
hmmm.... out of curiosity which APs would you consider cool that you missed out on? and did you ask the GM why it is so integral to Wrath of the Righteous, seems to me that it shouldn't be:)
I would have liked to play:
- Legacy of fire
- Rise of the rune lords
- Skull and shackle
- Serpent's skull
I can't say for sure that I'd have liked them all but those are the ones that sounded most interesting besides from Kingmaker which I love playing but which will come to a premature end because the gm doesn't like it.
About the path ability: The gm told me that he can not go into more detail because doing so would mean to spoiler too much about the way it is integrated into the AP.
And to something you said before: Perhaps I'm really not able to give it a fair try.
just try to give it a shot:) also there are other APs in the sea then the 5 you just listed. i myself don't have WotR yet and it would be awhile before i'd get to GM it (mostly because i'm waiting to see how other people like it) but mythic adventures is pretty cool.