I've seen a discussion about whether or not manyshot and rapid shot can be used in conjunction. Maybe there is even some discussion about clustered shot, but I haven't checked it out.
I did note that there is a split regarding manyshot and rapid shot being used together or not. Interestingly, the idea of the haste spell used with rapid shot does not cause this argument. It's assumed rapid shot & haste work together.
Why do I bring this up? The 3 feats & 1 spell all start with the words, "When making a full-attack action..." So, why would there be a split (yes/no with the occassional "I don't care.) as to whether manyshot and rapid shot (and clustered attack) can work in conjunction?
Another feat for comparison is whirlwind attack. It is written differently and states you give up your regular attack. Not to mention, it's melee only. I bring it up because the others don't seem to replace; they add to the use of the bows.
Any OFFICIAL RULING out there that anyone has seen?
Its pretty much the same as two handed weapon fighting and improved 2 handed weapon fighting but for bows but with an extra feat tax on top. Its the same BAB requirement.
Only real difference is that the extra attack is free at full +bab instead on -5 in exchange for less precision and critical damage.
It doesn't need official ruling as its pretty clear.
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There is nothing to imply that they can't work together. The only thing they say with regards to full-attack is that in order to use them, you have to be full-attacking. So if you normally have 1 attack and you full-attack you would get 2 shots with a -2 penalty to hit for both and the first shot would fire 2 arrows.
The full-attack stipulation is so you can't use them for readied actions and the like. There are a lot of feats like this and, unless they specifically contradict one another or there is special wording, they work in conjunction.
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There is no confusion about this in PF.
The only confusion there may be is from remembering the 3.5 version of Manyshot, which could not be used in a full attack at all, because in 3.5 Manyshot was a special standard action. This meant that in 3.5 Manyshot and Rapid Shot could not be used together.
In PF, because they both must be used when taking the full attack action, they may be used together.
Manyshot and Rapid Shot can be used together. The argument that you can't typically stems as a mistaken holdover from 3.5 where Manyshot was a specific Standard Action, as opposed to being made as part of a Full-Attack Action.
Haste works in conjunction with the two as normal. Clustered Shot works in conjunction with all of this as normal.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Malachi.
While technically they can be used together I recommend against it because I've heard quite a few comments on archery builds becoming overpowered because of this. One fewer arrows isn't going to hurt an archer.
While technically they can be used together I recommend against it because I've heard quite a few comments on archery builds becoming overpowered because of this. One fewer arrows isn't going to hurt an archer.
Meh, it's not really overpowered. The thing that gives archers a pretty substantial boost (in my opinion anyway) is Clustered Shots. That's a pretty impressive bonus. Instead of your four (or whatever) arrows having to overcome up to 40 points of DR in a round, now it's only 10 because it gets applied once. And you're doing all your damage from 300' away. Or, you know, from right next to them if you've got the feats. Whatever. Then there's Improved Precise Shot.
Yeah, archers can be deadly.
Manyshot and Rapid Shot can be used together. The argument that you can't typically stems as a mistaken holdover from 3.5 where Manyshot was a specific Standard Action, as opposed to being made as part of a Full-Attack Action.
Seeing as how Rapid Shot is now a pre-requisite for Manyshot, they'd bloody well BETTER work together! :-)
Rapid Shot: "When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round."
Manyshot: "When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit."
There's nothing in there to imply that they wouldn't work together: they both have the condition "when making a full attack action", and the effects don't seem to conflict.
Some of the confusion might also come from the Zen Archer archetype. The Zen Archer "flurry with a bow" feature is mechanically the same as Rapid Shot, but the flurry feature specifically states it can't be combined with either Rapid Shot or Manyshot. It's possible that some people are translating the Zen Archer limitation to "can't use Manyshot when firing twice a round" or something.
It's also important to note that Rapid Shot works with (almost) any ranged weapon, while Manyshot only works with a bow. So for Gunslingers and regular Slingers, Manyshot is not available.
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While technically they can be used together I recommend against it because I've heard quite a few comments on archery builds becoming overpowered because of this. One fewer arrows isn't going to hurt an archer.
I've never understood this point of view.
If the archer has decided to kill something in combat, he's going to to his best to kill it as quickly as possible, before the target has the chance to strike back.
I can't imagine the archer choosing not to shoot an extra arrow on the grounds that it wouldn't be 'fair' to the target!
I don't speak as a player. I speak as a GM.
Thanks all! Especially Gwen Smith who sited Flurry of blows from the zen archer as it specifically states it does not work with rapid shot & manyshot.
I also tested rapid shot with haste using Hero Lab and they work together just fine. Neither manyshot nor clustered shot have an active button for the program, but it was good to see haste work considering the shared wording.
p. s. I miss reverie. Did elves also lose their presence thing they had or was that all the way back from AD&D 2nd edition?
GM's don't play, they do a job. But the payment is watching players di- I mean, enjoy their hard work. ;>