Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen,
I am addressing this to you, but I could point this finger at (nearly) all of us who have been posting over the last few weeks, including myself.
I know you know what you mean when you post. Hell, sometimes even I know what you mean :). But sometimes others have not had the luxury of exchanging posts with you and may not yet have a grasp on your style and your humour. Equally, if they have just decloaked from the world of lurkerdom, perhaps you are misreading their intent. Please bear that in mind next time someone like Aleron posts - innocent until proven guilty and all that.
I have had major differences of opinion with you, as I have with Bluddwolf, and others, and yet we have all managed to remain civil. It's not so hard to bite back the knee-jerk response and re-read that post to see if what you think was said really is what was said. And then respond rationally.
If you still want to have a go at someone, the usual suspects will all be here. Feel free to rant at me as much as you like, for example, but please lets not scare the lurkers off just yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...hardly qualifies as battlefield command.It's called poetic licence; where has this sudden need to question every word-choice come from? We're seeing it in many threads in the absence of new input from GW for us to discuss.
His intent was blindingly clear, and you might've responded to his meaning just as easily as his words. Instead you've chosen to infer something not implied in his post.
No it's not called poetic license. It's called Hype. I will call it everytime I see it. And it's ME calling it. Not Pax. If the rest of them wanted to weigh in, they would, but everytime I turn around I see Andius attempting to misrepresent himself or others trying to misrepresent him.
Claiming that what he did was in any shape or form "battlefield command" is a gross misrepresentation of the events that actually occurred and that is if I am taking Andius at face value.
Why are these misrepresentations dangerous to the community? When someone says they have lead "massive" guilds and been an "intregal part" of alliances that implies significance. When that same individual openly admits that he is only used to leading guilds of around 13 people I paints a very different picture. That is deceptivly misleading the community.
He could have just as easily said "That's just common sense" but he chose the words he chose for the emotion that they invoke. "Battlefield Commander" sounds a lot better and implies a lot more than "common sense" does.
That's why I'm quibbling over words. Call it petty, call it a one man witch hunt, call it whatever you like. I will do everything I can to expose people or organizations who attempt to misrepresent themselves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When someone says they have lead "massive" guilds and been an "intregal part" of alliances that implies significance.
To me it implies a desire to be regarded as significant, which, in my mind, is radically different. In most cases, I follow my father's rule of "if you can do it, it isn't bragging"; I discount what people say and watch what they do.
As we have no game to play yet, I can only watch people's behaviour here, and decide which are consistent, well-spoken, polite, broad-minded, clear-thinking, flexible, and able to survive the increasingly poisonous nature of the discourse. Those people are worth continuing to read, while others are worth discounting, while not ignoring.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The nuances of social PvP are subtle and fascinating. </popcorn>
Forum PVP, the online equivalent of dirt farming.
Being hit on a key point regarding CX vs LX. CX, by their nature, should require a strong organizing force and dedication to form an effective unit. The game mechanics should not aid them in this. LX, on the other hand, should not requires such micro-management due to a more generally selfless approach. The game should support these folk, making it a bit easier for them in some aspects, especially in settlement advancement and formation fighting. Each alignment needs to be equally capable of performing in a general activity, a 1v1 LX vs CX situation between two equally skilled and geared opponents should be even odds. The differences between the two social paradigms should be brought into play as the number of participants grow. A small band of LX Champions should force a small band of CX Outlaws to consider unconventional tactics since going toe to toe with them is more likely to end with more outlaws than champions napping in the dirt.
PVP Post Time
About 8 months after starting EVE I was out in Cloud Ring, mining and ratting while the corp worked towards some of its goals. Goonswarm decided to invade so, being the industrial arm of our small alliance, we made preparations to evacuate to Fade. Having demonstrated a skill at evading gatecamps (in a badger with a prototype cloak), I was appointed the logistics officer. Corp assets were packed up and we ran a convoy of haulers and ratting ships to C4C, managing to make two runs and extracting all corp and most personal assets in the process.
I decided to make one last run, despite word of the impending goon invasion force. All alone, I shuttled back to the station, loaded up my remaining Badger, tossed a rail gun, some random shield mods, and a multispec ECM on it just in time to watch local explode. This was in early 2007, a much different game than it is now. Anyway, I sat around for a half hour, debating on what to do, before deciding to go for it. I undocked into a sea of red and immediately warped to the gate just off of the undock. I landed at 100km and set my warp to an 0 bookmark I had set on the gate I wanted. A few goon frigs landed on the gate just as I entered warp.
I jumped immediately on landing on the gate and warped to my next insta, the gate flashing just before I entered warp. I hit the next gate and jumped. Once more I aligned to the next gate, but this time my pursuer managed to jump and align to the next gate just as I entered warp. It was a mwd fit rifter. Fortunately the pilot didn't have bookmarks for these gates, so I had that advantage, but he was fast! I warped and jumped, with him right behind me. This time I was not so lucky. He uncloaked and began looking for me as I held my session cloak. As I uncloaked he managed to burn in and point me before I could warp and began to chew through my shields.
Figuring I had nothing to lose, I activated my ECM and rail gun on him. Every shot missed, and I kept my alignment on the outbound gate during the fight. My shields failed and big chunks of armor started coming apart, then it all stopped. I had jammed him. Instantly I warped to the next gate and tried jumping, only to discover first hand what an aggression timer was. I was stuck. I warped to the planet immediately ahead of me, entering warp as he landed on the gate.
I dropped a bookmark in warp and, landing 100km from the planet, saw that he has warped to the planet at 15km. I turned and warped to a moon of another planet selected at random, leaving bookmarks as I warped. This continued for a few more minutes until I ended up with a bookmark out of line from any celestial, nearly impossible for my pursuer to find. After about 15 mins of searching, he saluted me in local and left to re-join the attack on the outpost. The remaining jumps to C4C were uneventful, but my heart was pounding most of the way.
I learned a lot about basic PVP mechanics that day, such as turret tracking, tactical bookmarks, aggression mechanics, ecm mechanics, and the frail nature of badgers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When someone says they have lead "massive" guilds and been an "intregal part" of alliances that implies significance.To me it implies a desire to be regarded as significant, which, in my mind, is radically different. In most cases, I follow my father's rule of "if you can do it, it isn't bragging"; I discount what people say and watch what they do.
As we have no game to play yet, I can only watch people's behaviour here, and decide which people are consistent, well-spoken, polite, broad-minded, clear-thinking, flexible, and able to survive the increasingly poisonous nature of the discourse. Those people are worth continuing to read, while others are worth discounting, while not ignoring.
Your first paragraph is important because not everyone thinks that way. While it is a prudent, some people do take others at face value. As we are the "10%" of the community, we don't know the temperature of the unspoken 90%. They may not think like you. They may take others at face value. Rather than rattle of likened rhetoric, I choose to challenge those that I find misrepresenting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...good joke...How about "theme", "mood", or "attitude". Those are, obviously, the usage of "soul" intended, not any metaphysical, mystical conceptualisation.
I also notice that your response pretty clearly proves Nihimon's point.
The best part of the joke is, Nihimons crusade for the greater good, when he just as bad as the people he is crusading against. In fact, our tensions were started by him insulting me in the previous massive PVP thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Remember, text is emotionless4000 years of world literature would seem to disprove that remark...
Well, yeah for good writers... I am not a good writer... Now tell a story as a DM and keep it face to face and you will have what you are looking for.
Yeah, most wont understand my statements, which is why I said that.
Your right, probably shouldnt have hit back as hard, but when someone comes out of lurkerdom... takes a jab... then plays innocent canadian... Eh, stay in lurkerdom.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Right. I was "panicked." Apparently you didn't stick around. We exited through the back, then came back in through the front. We snuck back up on him and then decided to let the guy go because he was good aligned, wearing rank 0 gear, and there were four of us. If he was UNC he would have died but are relations with Judgement haven't dropped that low yet.
Only an idiot would keep farming a spawn after being spotted by a member of a known RPKer group with a high membership count. I'm not letting a group I'm in get jumped by the group of guys he could have called in to assist in the middle of farming mobs when I can quickly disengage and then re-engage on my terms. That's called being a good battlefield commander.
Right you can be attacked while wearing bandit flags though I recall you being offended at the idea I could come along and clear out a group of bandits who weren't actively engaged in killing someone before the flag system was announced, where I've shown proof I advocated making champion type players open to attack from those they can hunt before anyone else suggested it.
Here's the problem. You want to run around and rob people whenever you see them. You engage them while they are out trading and PVEing on your terms. Then as soon as you are done murdering and pillaging you want to turn off your bandit flags and resume being a regular member of society. You want to engage other as they PVE but only be engaged when you are armed, grouped, and ready for PVP.
I find that to be cowardice. It's why I keep saying that my champion flag will be up 100% of the time. Because I'm not a coward. I accept the consequences of my playstyle 100% of the time.
If you want to engage PVEers in any form of PvP ever, your flag should be constantly up.
All I have to say to the first explanations is wow! I really thought it was a group you spotted. Now you tell us it was ONE guy, in noob gear and "white", so likely had little PVP experience.
I think that paints a clear enough picture, and doesn't need my further comment.
As for my objection to the Champion Flag, you have completely misrepresented my position. I did not complain that it exists, I said there should be an Evil Champion Flag, so that an Evil Champion can slaughter the Good Aligned, with the same abilities as the Good Champion flag does.
You also misrepresented what I wrote about flagging, unflagging and reflagging.
I specifically said that I would be flagged Outlaw. Once a caravan is captured, I would have to wait for the 30 second cool down, to then flag Traveler. You do understand that I would have to flag Traveler, to have the cargo capacity to haul off the loot I just stole. The Traveler Flag is still a PVP flag, and you can still attack me.
Even if I don't have any flag, in the wilderness, you can still attack me. I won't be evil, so your Champion Flag won't protect you. I also won't be low reputation, so you will take an even greater hit. I might even be running CG at the time, so you would take an even greater hit. But, if it is important enough for you, you will accept all of those consequences. I might even let you kill me, so I can then issue a Bounty, an Assassination contract, Rebuke you and levy a Death Curse.
You see, a flawed PVP consequence system can be used by all. It will have more effect coming form me though, because I couldn't care less about alignment hits. I'd be more than willing to sacrifice hundreds or even thousands of Reputation points to rebuke and Death Curse someone.
When my Reputation runs a bit lower, I'll just flag Traveler and build it up every hour, for ten ours. I'll let someone else in my crew, issue the SAD. I'll then switch to Outlaw, and issue a SAD that is so low, the merchant would be a fool not to except, and I'd get my daily maximum. Then I would reflag, Traveler and let the stck build for another 10 hours.
The misunderstanding that you have is that the flag is your identity. I view the flagging system as something strategic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Scene 3: Schoolyard
"You started it!"
"Did not!"
"Did too!"
"Did not!"
"Did too!"
"Liar!"
"Boys, boys: Two wrongs don't make a right. Now each of you go to your rooms and think about what you have done together. You can come out when you realize how childish you have been."
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is back when Shadowbane came out...
I was in a guild called House Morokryst
We were building up our town, and racing to the Level Cap.
Hlaf the guild was 80-85% of cap, running around 'protecting' 'our' farming spots and generating cash for said town-building, and the less active people doing what they could to help, we were really ahead of the game.
Point is, we had 2 leaders, one political, one military. Do not do this. After a week or so, I log in and the guards start attacking me. The Guild Leader and the military Leader had a falling out, so the Guild leader made us all KOS to our own guards. Fortunately, we had some great people, they were right there, killing the guards, explaining things and helping us survive the ambushes and get to safety. We eventually got control of the town, but it set us back a lot and made a lot of people leave the guild. Really wrecked a promising start.
Not really a pvp story, but just one of the things that can happen in open PVP environments.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...go to your rooms...
I noticed when I was a kid that the master-stroke of this tactic was that I was more pissed at the punishment-giver than I was at the opponent of the initial argument. I'm almost certain my parents (the typical punishers) knew that would happen, and were willing to take the heat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The misunderstanding that you have is that the flag is your identity. I view the flagging system as something strategic.
I believe it to be both. Don't fault someone with using the system to define what they see as their idenity as long as they don't fault you for getting the most out of the system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
All I have to say to the first explanations is wow! I really thought it was a group you spotted. Now you tell us it was ONE guy, in noob gear and "white", so likely had little PVP experience.
Wearing disposable gear to harvest in a high threat area does not a noob make, and in Darkfall seeing one guy usually means there is a whole group he is talking with in TS.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In fact, our tensions were started by him insulting me in the previous massive PVP thread.
I didn't randomly insult you. I called you out for being a jerk to a particular new poster and for misrepresenting what the game is going to be like.
I have also consistently provided links to the original context when I did so - something I notice you don't bother to do when you accuse me of insulting you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In fact, our tensions were started by him insulting me in the previous massive PVP thread.I didn't randomly insult you. I called you out for being a jerk to a particular new poster and for misrepresenting what the game is going to be like.
I have also consistently provided links to the original context when I did so - something I notice you don't bother to do when you accuse me of insulting you.
And you try to misrepresent people by not quoting their entire posts.
Also, you Deflect and avoid discussions when they don't go your way.|
Goblin Squad Member
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In fact, our tensions were started by him insulting me in the previous massive PVP thread.I didn't randomly insult you. I called you out for being a jerk to a particular new poster and for misrepresenting what the game is going to be like.
I have also consistently provided links to the original context when I did so - something I notice you don't bother to do when you accuse me of insulting you.
Good for you
Now, do you have any good stories to share with us?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've lurked these forums for a while and in the interest of actually posting on topic I'll share some of my "pvp" experiences.
I've played most of the major MMOs since SWGs in some way shape or form and have pvp'd in most of them. My experience in the hardcore pvp games is somewhat limited I will admit, but I'll also put forth the opinion that most of them haven't really been worthwhile games. I would have loved to pvp in EVE (despite it not being twitch) but the things one has to do to gather the money as a new and friendless player were entirely too boring to make it worth my while.
So on to two stories who's major themes have always served me well in pvp.
Stay calm under fire:
This is a vanilla WoW story (yeah, yeah, I know...). A group of us were wanting to kill the boss in the Dire Maul arena (free for all pit!). The boss itself would have been a joke for us (two were hardcore raiders and the other three of us were pretty competent) but there were a gaggle of Horde people milling about watching. The two raiders were anti-pvp and were very skeptical about jumping in as they were afraid of getting attacked. Eventually we were able to talk them into it with the advice: "Whatever happens, you two stay on the boss and stay alive. We'll deal with the Hordies."
When it was obvious we were going to kill the boss with ease, the five or so Hordies attacked. The three of us that were pvpers turned and instantly focus fired them all down systematically. They weren't pushovers but I don't think they were really expecting the concerted and calm reaction to their attack. We'd talked through the scenario before hand and basically had a plan for "what can possibly go wrong". When the poo came flying we reacted per the plan and remained calm.
The best part was the exhilaration of the PVEers from the adrenaline rush of the fight. We didn't quite make pvpers out of them, but they saw at least a little bit of the draw for it.
Make use of your environment:
This second story isn't about computer games. It's actually about a NATO wargame, but these canned scenarios are often very similar to video games in a manner of speaking (plus I can talk about them without violating any classification rules). I was the officer of the deck of a fast attack submarine with the goal of "destorying" a high value unit. They have us go to point with a plus/minus distance and a certain time and then start the scenario. Basically this actually gives them a fighting chance because honestly, other than the canned scenario noone really ever knows we're there.
The Captain and Engineer had this new "tactic" they like to use to get a better battlefield picture, which I was against based on having been brainwashed that stealth was everything. They would broach the sail of the sub just long enough to rotate the radar a few turns and get a clear picture of where everything was located. Other than the annoying procedures to carry out this evolution it wasn't all that big a deal, but this time there was a ship in the line up that had a spy-1 radar (know your enemies), which can see a car moving down a road at 200 miles. Needless to say it wasn't very long before a P-3 was up in the air looking for us and dropping active sonar buoys.
From a previous scenario I knew that the standard operating procedure for getting away from these things once detected wasn't really going to work (the same Engineer had made me pull out the book and use the SOP). After telling the Engineer "I told you so" and being told to "Shut the F up." (I had told him it was a bad idea prior) I told him I'd like to try something different. I knew the water conditions and how they affected sound propogation in the water and I knew where the other ships in the area were due to sonar and I had good firing solutions on every one of them. I figured out where to put the sub to basically shield us from the active pulses of the sonar buoys before they could really pinpoint us and go for a kill. It wasn't long after that, that we "destroyed" the high value unit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Blaeringr
We'd talked through the scenario before hand and basically had a plan for "what can possibly go wrong". When the poo came flying we reacted per the plan and remained calm.
**Mil Experience**
That's how it's going to impact the game. Training, planning, prep, execution, improvision, review, retrain. That's how you develop an SOP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And you try to misrepresent people by not quoting their entire posts.
You mean like when someone posts about how they turned a situation where they can be ambushed into a situation where they could engage on their own terms. Then later on they talk about how it's cowardice to expect to be able to engage people on your own terms while they PVE, but not have them be able to engage you as you PVE.
Then someone else comes along end bolds the part where you talk about engaging people on your own terms, and the statement about them engaging the enemy on their terms but not the follow up condition.
Then you insist the parts you bolded was the argument they were trying to make even after they point out how you're wrong?
Is that the kind of misrepresentation by partial quotation you're referring to????
No it's not called poetic license. It's called Hype. I will call it everytime I see it. And it's ME calling it. Not Pax.
Has anyone else mentioned Pax in this thread? I generally do judge an organization based on the conduct of their membership, especially one who holds an office such as "High Thane" but based on the fact they haven't circled the bandwagons around you this time, and in-fact Bringslite has been making some great post I really agreed with in similar topics, I'm content to leave Pax out of this debate.
LOL, good joke, the internet community... Watch out for your pixel soul, it may be taken by the internet devil.... where has this sudden need to question every word-choice come from?It's a battle for the soul of the community. I'm 100% serious.
This right here characterizes the difference between me and you. I slaughtered innocents by the droves in KOTOR but can't bring myself to RPK in an MMO. Why? Because when I kill an NPC I know it's pixels on the screen. When I kill a character, I know those "pixels" are attached to a real person. That if I kill someone who's never crossed me and take their 15 copper coins that mean almost nothing to me, I'm making the real person run 10 minutes to recover their body so I can effectively gain... almost nothing. And the game allows me to view them as a friend rather than an enemy, but I made that choice to kill them. I can't do that knowing there is another human who as far as I'm aware had never wronged anyone sitting there, playing that character.
Because doing so doesn't make me a "pixel" jerk. It makes me a real, full fledged jerk. Now when I'm facing an opponent who I know does that kind of thing to other people, or I'm facing someone who I know is craving PvP, or has put themselves into a high PvP risk situation, everything changes, and I can enjoy the game as a game knowing that either:
A. Everyone is here to compete / hopefully having fun.
or...
B. I'm facing an Internet bully.
I've played a lot of online games and met a lot of people who play online games and have noticed that people who truly care about others in real life go for more non-aggressive or anti-RPK roles. People who are selfish, cruel, and generally jerks are drawn to RPK / Griefer type roles.
It takes a certain kind of person to enjoy ambushing real players who have done nothing to earn their enmity while those players enjoy the non-competitive / PVE aspects of the game. There are those who see Open World PvP as a chance to enjoy meaningful / unscripted warfare, and those who see it as an opportunity to push people around, take their stuff, and be an Internet bully.
What creates the 2nd kind of player is a sickness of the soul. Not the "pixel" soul but the soul of the players sitting behind the screen. We are fighting over whether we want that sickness to infect the soul of our community. Not the "pixel" souls of the avatars sitting in the game, but the real souls of the players who control them.
Like Nihimon, I'm 100% serious.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A buddy and I went on a roam in Eve. We went into low sec to a system that a highly experienced pirate lived. It was a lone system surrounded by high sec.
I was flying a Zealot (Heavy Assault Cruiser) and he was in a Nighthawk (Command Ship). At the time we did this, both ships were good but not that good. The Nighthawk was a PVE king and the Zealot was just mediocre.
SO we jumped in, the pirate was not online (he literally never left that system). There were some neuts in system so we scanned around. OOOh an Armageddon Battleship in the asteroid belts ratting (there were npc wrecks on scan). We found him and attacked... All of a sudden local exploded, (well for a 2 man gang anyway) we went from 3 to 8 in local.
Ahh, so the battleship was bait. Thats fine, he cannot keep us so lets kill him and take off. Nope, he was tanked completely. Ok scan and see whats incoming. Arbritrator, Merlin, Crow, Omen, and Myrmadon. Thats enough to kill us.
I tell my buddy to get out to range and shoot the Crow. The Crow is the only ship that can get under my guns and tackle him at range. I start in on the Arbritrator and keep him at 20km range. He can drain my cap quick or even tracking disrupt me so I cant hit anyone. Boom, the crow pops and he switches to assist me against the Arbritrator. The Arbritrator has me tracking disrupted but cannot get in range to neut my capacitor.
Boom, the arbritrator pops... He had almost no tank. Next we focus in on the merlin. He hasnt closed range on me? Oh, he is after burner fit... Boom and three are left. The Armageddon warps off, The Myrmadon warps off, I got point on the Omen before he could leave. Boom, and loot the field.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's how it's going to impact the game. Training, planning, prep, execution, improvisation, review, retrain. That's how you develop an SOP.
With all due respect Areks, there is nothing at all about that list that makes it exclusively the preserve of those who have had military training. Anybody who wants to be any good at anything at all in life has to go through those steps all the time. I agree that this is what will separate the good players/organisations from those who flounder but it's hardly RMA Sandhurst or West Point material.
My name for your list is "common sense".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even if I don't have any flag, in the wilderness, you can still attack me. I won't be evil, so your Champion Flag won't protect you. I also won't be low reputation, so you will take an even greater hit. I might even be running CG at the time, so you would take an even greater hit. But, if it is important enough for you, you will accept all of those consequences. I might even let you kill me, so I can then issue a Bounty, an Assassination contract, Rebuke you and levy a Death Curse.
Exactly. When someone else is out PVEing you can go steal all their stuff, and kill them if they don't hand it over all for a reputation gain because you're an outlaw.
When those same people find you, you think it's fair to be able to hide behind mechanics that penalize their alignment and reputation if they kill you.
They would have to go fully chaotic and flag up as an outlaw to respond in kind without penalty, even if the only thing they are interested in pursuing is justice against those who have previously wronged them.
You don't see the double standard or cowardice of this? Because I sure do. Screaming load and clear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's how it's going to impact the game. Training, planning, prep, execution, improvisation, review, retrain. That's how you develop an SOP.With all due respect Areks, there is nothing at all about that list that makes it exclusively the preserve of those who have had military training. Anybody who wants to be any good at anything at all in life has to go through those steps all the time. I agree that this is what will separate the good players/organisations from those who flounder but it's hardly RMA Sandhurst or West Point material.
My name for your list is "common sense".
Oh I don't doubt it would seem that way. The difference really lies in an old quote, "Training isn't something we do, it is what we do."
I'm not saying I'm any better than anyone else, I'm just saying a tactical minded skillset with years of experience executing the above in a high stress enviroment over a long period of time will more than likely out perform one that doesn't possess said skillset in a PvP arena where things such as sieges and formation combat come into play. I'm not trying to imply anymore than what I've stated above.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even if I don't have any flag, in the wilderness, you can still attack me. I won't be evil, so your Champion Flag won't protect you. I also won't be low reputation, so you will take an even greater hit. I might even be running CG at the time, so you would take an even greater hit. But, if it is important enough for you, you will accept all of those consequences. I might even let you kill me, so I can then issue a Bounty, an Assassination contract, Rebuke you and levy a Death Curse.Exactly. When someone else is out PVEing you can go steal all their stuff, and kill them if they don't hand it over all for a reputation gain because you're an outlaw.
When those same people find you, you think it's fair to be able to hide behind mechanics that penalize their alignment and reputation if they kill you.
They would have to go fully chaotic and flag up as an outlaw to respond in kind without penalty, even if the only thing they are interested in pursuing is justice against those who have previously wronged them.
You don't see the double standard or cowardice of this? Because I sure do. Screaming load and clear.
And what we are telling you... PLEASE TRY TO HUNT US DOWN AND EXACT JUSTICE... IT WOULD NOT BE A FUN GAME IF YOU DIDNT... PLEASE FIGHT BACK, I WANT YOUR EQUIPMENT
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps when someone is the victim of a SAD or is killed while not flying a PVP flag they receive a sharable, transferable writ entitling the bearer to kill the individual specified without a reputation hit. If they fly a Vigilante flag they could gain rep for a successful completion of the writ, as well as a move to chaos, or they could fly a Justicar flag for the rep bump and a move to law. The limitation of the flag is it opens them up to PVP, but limits their own targets to those whose writs they possess or who are flying their own PVP flags.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And what we are telling you... PLEASE TRY TO HUNT US DOWN AND EXACT JUSTICE... IT WOULD NOT BE A FUN GAME IF YOU DIDNT... PLEASE FIGHT BACK, I WANT YOUR EQUIPMENT
Really...
I might even let you kill me, so I can then issue a Bounty, an Assassination contract, Rebuke you and levy a Death Curse.
Because what I'm hearing is "I'm going rob PvEers when I feel like it, but when I go to PvE I'm going to deflag and slap you with every penalty I can because I'm a coward."
Wouldn't someone who actually wants PvP continually fly their flag?
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's called being a good battlefield commander.By the way, what theater did you attain your battlefield command experience? Iraq or Afghanistan?
I'm sorry you said "battlefield command", I thought you were actually talking about commanding on a battlefield. Leading a group in a PvP hardly qualifies as battlefield command. Good MMO strategy, yes. Battlefield command... not a chance.
That's why I'm quibbling over words. Call it petty, call it a one man witch hunt, call it whatever you like. I will do everything I can to expose people or organizations who attempt to misrepresent themselves.
You're a lying hypocrite. You chose to attack Andius over something trivial, and rationalized it by saying his words obviously conveyed a sense they obviously didn't convey. The proof that you're a hypocrite is in the fact that you've used the same phrasing yourself, without the sense that you say must have been present in Andius's statement.
Leadership would lesson that bonus as the commander of the force would be compensating some how... changing the focus of the spell casters or ranged folks, shifting personnel that aren't yet involved in combat, transitioning ranged units to melee.
It will be interesting to see whether or not battle space tactics and procedures will actually have an impact of in-game warfare. I could see a possibility for a maneuver commander type skillset, as well as targeting acquisition when it comes to field artillery / siege combat.
And I double-dog dare you to keep a straight face trying to convince anyone that "battlefield commander" is obviously and significantly different from "commander of the force" and "maneuver commander".
I still wonder why you chose to engage in a strategy of consistently attacking Andius on the flimsiest of provocations. I can only assume you want to provoke him and his allies into considering you a sworn enemy. So be it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...you get the negatives of being assassinated...
I fail to see how that fits in the ballpark of "PVP is an enjoyable activity for all involved" that a few folks seem to want us to believe in. To me, I'd think that PVP, conducted--in that mindset--for the fun of itself, would involve only the PVP-combat portion of an interaction (including the looting), and not all the little punishing follow-throughs.
Something may exist in the mechanics of the game, but nothing says it has to be used.
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Goblin Squad Member
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notice he said, LET YOU KILL ME, just for the negatives he can place on you afterwards...
I understand perfectly. He wants to forgo the opportunity to either escape or stand and fight like a man so that I will take penalties and he can put contracts out on me.
In contrast to what I asked for...
On a personal note I would be entirely willing to flag myself as open to attack for evil players without penalty if it allowed me the freedom I need to protect innocent players.
Which is a system where the only good outcomes for me come if I escape, or stand and fight as my enemies suffer no penalty for winning the fight.
You know, the kind of thing someone who actually wants to PvP would support.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...you get the negatives of being assassinated...I fail to see how that fits in the ballpark of "PVP is an enjoyable activity for all involved" that a few folks seem to want us to believe in. To me, I'd think that PVP, conducted--in that mindset--for the fun of itself, would involve only the PVP-combat portion of an interaction (including the looting), and not all the little punishing follow-throughs.
Something may exist in the mechanics of the game, but nothing says it has to be used.
Its just for Andius
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's called being a good battlefield commander.By the way, what theater did you attain your battlefield command experience? Iraq or Afghanistan?I'm sorry you said "battlefield command", I thought you were actually talking about commanding on a battlefield. Leading a group in a PvP hardly qualifies as battlefield command. Good MMO strategy, yes. Battlefield command... not a chance.That's why I'm quibbling over words. Call it petty, call it a one man witch hunt, call it whatever you like. I will do everything I can to expose people or organizations who attempt to misrepresent themselves.You're a lying hypocrite. You chose to attack Andius over something trivial, and rationalized it by saying his words obviously conveyed a sense they obviously didn't convey. The proof that you're a hypocrite is in the fact that you've used the same phrasing yourself, without the sense that you say must have been present in Andius's statement.
Leadership would lesson that bonus as the commander of the force would be compensating some how... changing the focus of the spell casters or ranged folks, shifting personnel that aren't yet involved in combat, transitioning ranged units to melee.It will be interesting to see whether or not battle space tactics and procedures will actually have an impact of in-game warfare. I could see a possibility for a maneuver commander type skillset, as well as targeting acquisition when it comes...
Thanks for proving my point again that you are just as bad as the people you crusade against.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even if I don't have any flag, in the wilderness, you can still attack me. I won't be evil, so your Champion Flag won't protect you. I also won't be low reputation, so you will take an even greater hit. I might even be running CG at the time, so you would take an even greater hit. But, if it is important enough for you, you will accept all of those consequences. I might even let you kill me, so I can then issue a Bounty, an Assassination contract, Rebuke you and levy a Death Curse.Exactly. When someone else is out PVEing you can go steal all their stuff, and kill them if they don't hand it over all for a reputation gain because you're an outlaw.
When those same people find you, you think it's fair to be able to hide behind mechanics that penalize their alignment and reputation if they kill you.
They would have to go fully chaotic and flag up as an outlaw to respond in kind without penalty, even if the only thing they are interested in pursuing is justice against those who have previously wronged them.
You don't see the double standard or cowardice of this? Because I sure do. Screaming load and clear.
Ahh... Andius, you are being lazy again.... just one more paragraph or if you accurately quoted me, you would have this:
You see, a flawed PVP consequence system can be used by all. It will have more effect coming form me though, because I couldn't care less about alignment hits. I'd be more than willing to sacrifice hundreds or even thousands of Reputation points to rebuke and Death Curse someone.
The very mechanics that you want to be felt as retribution against RPKing, can be turned back at you, but with greater effect. Why "with greater effect"? You may ask....
Because you care more about alignment, and even reputation than I do. I can also look at a system, see its flaws and its strengths, and then turn them to my advantage.
I ended my career in the military as a tactical logistics NCO, working in the S-4 section of a front-line, Military Police Brigade. I've had months of training in looking at delivery system, searching for flaws and developing solutions to get to one objective... Complete the Mission Successfully.
I was also a Crew Served Weapons Specialist (Machine Gunner) and I was part of a prisoner escort / patrol group that traveled along the Iraq - Saudi border, between our three EPW camps.
I was trained, and gained through experience, the skills of searching for and setting up ambush points (firing positions), OPs-LPs (Observation and Listening Posts).
In an Open World PVP game, I get to bring those mental capabilities and experiences back into play. I play games, especially PVP enabled game, for the thrill of it. My real world job is mundane and academic.
PVP is escapism. If I end up being CE, that is escapism. To say that playing CE is the result of being an a#$$%%^^ only comes from the point of view of an unimaginative mind.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks for proving my point again that you are just as bad as the people you crusade against.
I spell very well, and generally use correct grammar. I almost never call anyone out for using poor grammar, or misspelling words. There's one general case where I will call someone out for that kind of thing, though - if that person is being a jerk calling other people out for it.
You act as if I've proven your point, but you didn't state what point, and you didn't state how I'd proven it. I can only conclude your words were meant to impress people who already agree with you.
For my part, I'll continue working to impress all clear-thinking readers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're a lying hypocrite. You chose to attack Andius over something trivial, and rationalized it by saying his words obviously conveyed a sense they obviously didn't convey. The proof that you're a hypocrite is in the fact that you've used the same phrasing yourself, without the sense that you say must have been present in Andius's statement.
And I double-dog dare you to keep a straight face trying to convince anyone that "battlefield commander" is obviously and significantly different from "commander of the force" and "maneuver commander".
I still wonder why you chose to engage in a strategy of consistently attacking Andius on the flimsiest of provocations. I can only assume you want to provoke him and his allies into considering you a sworn enemy. So be it.
@Nihimon- Those terms in some contexts could be interchangeable. You are correct about that.
Unforunately, you quoted me from a thread about formations and war, as if would be in PfO. Those could be viable roles in a game that has formation and warfare. Leading a small team in PvP does not equate to battlefield command. I "double dog dare" you to argue that point.
I'm sorry you said "battlefield command", I thought you were actually talking about commanding on a battlefield. Leading a group in a PvP hardly qualifies as battlefield command. Good MMO strategy, yes. Battlefield command... not a chance.
I stand by this.
Completely a fair jab. He called himself a battlefield commander. He equated a game to real life warfare. It is even more ridiculous that being good at a game that requires strategy directly correlates to battlefield command.
This may have been a bit too generalized. A more accurate statement would have been "he is equating open world PvP with actual warfare tactics and strategy". Still a gross misrepresentation of what actually occurred.
There was no citation of civil affairs interaction, no logistical support, no possibility of blue on blue, no command intent needing decimination and interpretation by a lower echelon.
Civil Affairs plausibly equates to Escalation Cycles.
Logistical support plausibly equates to sustaining a Siege.Possible Blue on Blue plausibly equates to Friendly Fire
Command intent plausibly equates to the meta-game behind formation warfare and sieging.
Again... way to pick and choose your battles.
Until then, I have no further use for you.
So much for that huh? Go ahead, find and quote where I said I would ignore you. I think Xeen may be on to something ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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You are not a trustworthy debating partner.
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Until then, I have no further use for you.
So much for that huh? Go ahead, find and quote where I said I would ignore you.
I have no further use for you when it comes to engaging you in an honest debate, again because you're not a trustworthy debating partner. That doesn't mean I'm going to "ignore" your hypocrisy or your misrepresentations. It just means I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt and treat you as if anything you say is anything other than trolling.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm open to debate with the terms you've laid out... plus mine.
You don't want to debate unless you set the ground rules which you deem as fair.
*shrugs*
It is what it is. The fact of the matter is I elected to pick someone from TEO if you would pick someone from UNC and they choose the third. Not so far fetched. So how much do you really trust your allies?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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All I have to say to the first explanations is wow! I really thought it was a group you spotted. Now you tell us it was ONE guy, in noob gear and "white", so likely had little PVP experience.
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Standard DF doctrine in the case where you are on a spawn and see someone is to gank him and then move to a different location, just in case he calls in friends. Regardless of how much PvP experience he seems to have.
Goblin Squad has been defying standard DF wisdom rather often by not attacking people who have done us no harm.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... I elected to pick someone from TEO if you would pick someone from UNC and they choose the third...
How could that possibly be different than me picking someone from TEO and you picking someone from UNC, unless you have a spy in TEO that you'd want to pick in order to stack the deck in your favor. Even if you didn't have a spy you wanted to pick, forcing me to pick someone from UNC would stack the deck in your favor because I doubt there's anyone in that company that would actually be a trustworthy agent representing my interests, while I'm sure there are any number of people in TEO who would act as a trustworthy agent for you.
So, no, I choose to reject your offer of a duel as long as I allow your allies to load my gun for me.