Fighter(Archer) in Society play questions

[Rerednaw]

I was comparing the various guides on Archer builds.

I hear a lot of praise for the fighter and I have a few questions.

By mid-levels (6th) when martials get their iteratives.
Ranger has a +4 against their most favored (once they get that special spell, any enemy becomes favored) plus Gravity Bow.
Paladin has a +6 or +12 with Smite and the get out of DR free card.
Fighter has +2 from weapon specialization and +1 from weapon talent.

My build so far is pretty straightforward:
1-Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2-Rapid Shot
3-Weapon Focus
4-Weapon Specialization
5-Deadly Aim
6-Point Blank Master-really debating on this one. Maybe Clustered Shots or Manyshot instead? I figure if I do my job right, I shouldn't have mobs in my face.

My questions:
What did you do to boost the Fighter damage output? (+3 Str bonus Darkwood Bow is going to be his first weapon upgrade.)
Is there other methods to bypass DR other than the usual consumables such as special materials and oils?
How do you deal with Wind Wall/Fickle Winds or even the level 1 Obscuring Mist? Or the ubiquitous invisible foes?

Thanks in advance!

[DesolateHarmony]

Fighters have different builds for archers. My own Steel Arrow is a weaponmaster archetype with longbow as his weapon of choice. So, at third and seventh level he is picking up weapon training. One key feature of fighters is all the feats, and there are many feats that apply to archery. Your own example there, at sixth level there are many choices to be made.

I take it your character isn't human. That extra feat really helped me out with damage, as I got deadly aim early on.

Let's see if I can remember all the damage:

+1 Composite longbow, STR+3,
Point Blank shot, when things are up close and personal,
Weapon Focus and Specialization,
Weapon Training (3rd),
Deadly aim (-2/+4).

So, that is +7 damage, +11 with deadly aim at 5th level. Gloves of Duelling will kick in once you can afford them.

Differences with other classes? No need for charisma like a paladin has, and wisdom for a ranger, so you can put more into dexterity or strength. The smite bonus for a paladin is situational and limited in uses, and the favored enemy spread and gravity bow require spellcasting, and thus actions on the part of the ranger. A fighter can just start firing, and those full-attack actions are the key to everything.

DR bypassing for a fighter really comes from ammunition materials. Weapon blanches from Ultimate Equipment and the Pathfinder Society Field Guide are tremendously powerful. Just don't forget your Efficient Quiver.

Wind barriers, concealment and invisibility are all rough. Teammates to deal with spells are very useful. Look to a caster with Glitterdust, but a bag of flour can do the trick. Though there are feats for dealing with cover and concealment. Improved Precise Shot kicks in at BAB +11, and I am impatiently waiting on that one.

Hope this helps some.

[Lamontius]

Take Clustered Shots rather than Point Blank Master.
Take ManyShot next before Point Blank Master.

Seeking enchantment on your bow will eliminate most concealment.
Elixir of Spirit Sight for dealing with Invisibility.
Ghost Blanch for Incorporeals.

In PFS, these are huge, because you WILL encounter invisibility, DR/-, Incorporeals, etc etc etc

Anything you can do to maximize your effectiveness and keep your damage constant is really key in PFS.

[Akerlof]

Rerednaw wrote:

I was comparing the various guides on Archer builds.

I hear a lot of praise for the fighter and I have a few questions.

By mid-levels (6th) when martials get their iteratives.
Ranger has a +4 against their most favored (once they get that special spell, any enemy becomes favored) plus Gravity Bow.
Paladin has a +6 or +12 with Smite and the get out of DR free card.
Fighter has +2 from weapon specialization and +1 from weapon talent.

Instant Enemy is a 3rd level ranger spell, Gravity Bow takes a standard action to cast. Both are great, but both have significant drawbacks. Gravity Bow almost never makes up for the attack that the fighter took instead, and Instant Enemy costs a LOT to use.

Smite is good, really good. I've never played a paladin so I don't know how often it will be available in Society play. Also, at 6th level a paladin is 4 feats behind a fighter, which may balance the damage output.

Quote:

My build so far is pretty straightforward:
1-Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2-Rapid Shot
3-Weapon Focus
4-Weapon Specialization
5-Deadly Aim
6-Point Blank Master-really debating on this one. Maybe Clustered Shots or Manyshot instead? I figure if I do my job right, I shouldn't have mobs in my face.

I would consider trading Weapon Focus for Deadly Aim at 3 then picking up Point Blank Master at 5. Many Shot is too much of a boost to give up at 6.

Quote:

My questions:
What did you do to boost the Fighter damage output? (+3 Str bonus Darkwood Bow is going to be his first weapon upgrade.)
Is there other methods to bypass DR other than the usual consumables such as special materials and oils?
How do you deal with Wind Wall/Fickle Winds or even the level 1 Obscuring Mist? Or the ubiquitous invisible foes?

Thanks in advance!

Damage output: With a base of 18 Dex, +2 Dex belt, 16 Str, +1 adaptive composite bow, PBS, RS, Many Shot, Deadly Aim and Weapon Specialization at level 6, you're looking at: 6 (BAB) + 5 (Dex) + 1 (Bow) + 1 (Training) +1 (PBS) -2 (RS) - 2 (DA) = +10(2 arrows)/+10/+5 for 1d8+12 each. That's around 34 DPR against the median CR 8 AC of 21, which is _Really Good_ That's more than good enough for PFS. A generic two-hander* is looking at a DPR of around 29. You'll do this against every enemy, not just evil enemies or favored enemies.

Bypassing DR: Archers are among the best in the game at bypassing DR: Use cold iron arrows as your base ammunition, blanch 20 or 40 or so with Silver, the same with Adamantium, the same with Ghost Salt. You now have all material types covered, as well as ghost touch. Carry oils of Bless Weapon and Align Weapon (Lawful and Chaotic) and you have the alignments covered. Carry 20 or 40 blunt arrows, you have DR/Bludgeoning covered (maybe blanch some with the materials fo you can cover DR/Bludgeoning and ..., though I don't know if any monsters have that.) Carry some Chakrams, you can rapid shot and deadly aim with them and won't be terrible, you now have DR/Slashing covered (though it might be better to use your bow anyway.) The only DR you can't trivially overcome at level 6 is DR/Epic and DR/-. Pick up Clustered Shots at 7 or 8 for those. The only classes that might be better at overcoming DR than an archer are those that can add Bane to their weapons as a swift action.

Obscuring Mist and Invisible foes: Obscuring Mist is what Point Blank Master is for, (along with difficult terrain, small rooms, monsters with reach, etc.) Potions of See Invisibility are for invisible enemies, oils of Daylight are for Deeper Darkness. Fickle Winds shuts you down, Windwall forces you to move or shuts you down, that's true.

The down side of fighters in PFS: I love fighters, I have a fighter who is an archer in PFS. But, the down side of fighters is that they don't really do much outside of fight. I have a great time roleplaying my fighter, he's got the best developed personality of any of my (living, may Shelyn have mercy on poor Pyotr Petrovich Petrov's shadow-ized soul) characters. But I can't really do much outside of combat. Sure I can chat up NPCs, it's a lot of fun and the whole table generally enjoys it. But when it comes to actually accomplishing anything that requires a roll other than an attack roll? I sit on my hands because I don't have the skill points, I don't have any class features, I don't have any tools to succeed at most anything with a DC. Paladins have synergy between combat and non combat roles through Cha, Rangers have a good number of skills. Both can use wands and scrolls, and eventually cast spells. And in Pathfinder Society scenarios, that's important.

If all you want to do is kill stuff, a fighter is great! But be aware that you may find yourself sitting on your hands a lot of the time, the majority of the time in some scenarios, if you play a fighter.

*Generic Two Hander numbers:

BAB 6
18 Str + belt = 20 str = +5 hit/+7 dmg
+1 Nodachi +1 hit/1d10+1, 18-20/x2
Weapon Focus = +1 hit
Weapon Specialization = +2 dmg
Weapon Training = +1hit/dmg
Furious Focus = +2 hit on first PA
PA = -2 hit/+6 dmg
All told: +14/+7 for 1d10+17
Against AC 21, that's a DPR of around 29

[Declindgrunt]

You need weapon focus to get weapon specialization

[drbuzzard]

Another note, potions of see invisibility don't exist. The spell is personal so cannot be made into a potion.

[Krodjin]

The Zen Archer is probably the best all round Archer for Society Play. He receives as many or more Feats/Feat equivalents than a Fighter, gets more skill points with a better skill list and has 3 good saves opposed to 1.

I'd say the Ranger is the next best Archer.

What both those classes have in common is Improved Precise Shot at level 6 as opposed to level 11. This is actually pretty significant.

If you are looking for straight damage output I would go with the Fighter, but Society play is more than damage

[Rerednaw]

Akerlof wrote:

Rerednaw wrote:

I was comparing the various guides on Archer builds.

...

The down side of fighters in PFS: I love fighters, I have a fighter who is an archer in PFS. But, the down side of fighters is that they don't really do much outside of fight. I have a great time roleplaying my fighter, he's got the best developed personality of any of my (living, may Shelyn have mercy on poor Pyotr Petrovich Petrov's shadow-ized soul) characters. But I can't really do much outside of combat.

This is why I posted under Society instead of advice because I want to know how well the Fighter works in Society play. :)

This a major quandry for me...many many Society adventures depend on the out-of combat which is great by me...but horrible for a low/no skill class such as the fighter.

How were other folks experience with playing an archer fighter in Society? Did you find yourself literally sitting through 4 hours where all you could contribute were unskilled assists or hoping for a lucky roll? And as you progress/level up and the various skills DCs climb, the chance of contributing on an lucky roll drops off does it not and all you are left with is the assist action?

And based on feedback here's the new feat order:

1-point blank shot
1-precise shot
2-rapid shot
3-wf: bow
4-ws: bow (+1 to dex)
5-deadly aim (weapon training 1: +1/+1 with wpn group)
6-pb master-consensus is to delay this. For Manyshot, then Cluster and then PB Master
7-clustered shots (only with FRA, not with Rapid Shot)
8-Improved Critical
9-Point Blank Master
10-???
11-Improved Precise Shot.
By not getting Point Blank Master earlier it's now pushed back to 9th level. Or what would exchange to move it up...or is it not really needed? And what's recommended for 10th?

[LibraryRPGamer]

Krodjin wrote:

The Zen Archer is probably the best all round Archer for Society Play. He receives as many or more Feats/Feat equivalents than a Fighter, gets more skill points with a better skill list and has 3 good saves opposed to 1.

I'd say the Ranger is the next best Archer.

What both those classes have in common is Improved Precise Shot at level 6 as opposed to level 11. This is actually pretty significant.

If you are looking for straight damage output I would go with the Fighter, but Society play is more than damage

Did they ever clear up the whole "Can't really FoB with bows even though that's the point" thing?

...and I probably just opened a can of worms...

[Grizzly the Archer]

@library: yes they did. A few months ago with a bit of a monk overhaul. You can flurry with one item, like a bow now, without having wording issues from it stating the attacks are similar in effects to TWF and such.

[drbuzzard]

Yeah, the Zen archer is probably the best of the lot. About all you get on a fighter archer is the ability to wear heavy armor and still get pretty good dex bonus to AC. Of course there's also the consistent damage per shot and lack of resource expenditure (like Ki or spells, or whatnot).

Fighter is nice if you won't want to have to track usage of things.

However the lack of skill points, skills, lousy saves, and other perks really makes the fighter a bit lacking. It's probably a fine choice for a beginner, since you can hit things hard and don't need to mind a lot of complications.

I will say that PFS play has changed some with the latest rules and I suspect out of combat stuff won't be quite as crucial (faction missions going the way of the dodo and all.

[drbuzzard]

I would probably skip improved critical myself. On a 20 only weapon, I don't really consider it that great. I would try to fit in Iron Will. I consider a fighter lacking it to be gimped. I might consider snap shot in place of improved critical.

so:
8- point blank master
9 Iron Will
10 snap shot
11 improved precise shot

[kinevon]

A few things to remember:
Weapon Training.

Seeking for the bow.

2 PP will get you that bow you mentioned, so potentially available as early as your second game.

Be careful of Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot. Sometimes having fewer attacks and/or attacks that do less damage per hit will still do more damage because they will hit.

Remember weapon blanches.

Remember special arrows, like cold iron arrows, blunt arrows, and some of the arrows recently legalized from the Elves of Golarion boot.

[Akerlof]

drbuzzard wrote:

Another note, potions of see invisibility don't exist. The spell is personal so cannot be made into a potion.

Well, that would have totally changed the trajectory of the last scenario I played when the fighter (not played by me) popped one. I totally missed that.

Rerednow wrote:

How were other folks experience with playing an archer fighter in Society? Did you find yourself literally sitting through 4 hours where all you could contribute were unskilled assists or hoping for a lucky roll? And as you progress/level up and the various skills DCs climb, the chance of contributing on an lucky roll drops off does it not and all you are left with is the assist action?

I would have gone with a higher Cha and lower Str (up from 11 and down from 16) and a trait that gave me diplomacy or something instead of Reactionary. As it stands, I take part in the scenarios through roleplay. But when it comes to skill checks, I really don't contribute much.

And having a low int means I have to sit on my hands when the rest of the table just isn't seeing the clues or asking the questions I want them to. But that's more a problem with the character concept (he's supposed to be, shall we say, less than bright) than being a fighter.

I haven't seen any of the Season 5 scenarios yet, so I don't know how the secondary goals work that replaced faction missions. Hopefully it means you're not on your own with a DC 20 trained only try once or lose a PP skill check. But I also hope they don't de-emphasize skills, because I imagine that would mean they would start over-emphasizing combat. I like the fights, but I want more than just that.

As far as playing martials goes, while I love my fighter, I had a better time playing my cavalier.

[Krodjin]

Rerednaw wrote:

And based on feedback here's the new feat order:

1-point blank shot
1-precise shot
2-rapid shot
3-wf: bow
4-ws: bow (+1 to dex)
5-deadly aim (weapon training 1: +1/+1 with wpn group)
6-pb master-consensus is to delay this. For Manyshot, then Cluster and then PB Master
7-clustered shots (only with FRA, not with Rapid Shot)
8-Improved Critical
9-Point Blank Master
10-???
11-Improved Precise Shot.
By not getting Point Blank Master earlier it's now pushed back to 9th level. Or what would exchange to move it up...or is it not really needed? And what's recommended for 10th?

I know I'm going to come off like I'm harping on this, but check out what a Zen Archer would get just with class abilities and bonus feats;

1) Precise Shot (bonus feat - prerequisites not required), Flurry of Bows (basically Improved Rapid Shot), Perfect Strike (class ability), UAS (threaten adjacent while holding bow).
2) Point Blank Shot (bonus feat), Weapon Focus (class ability).
3) Point Blank Master (class ability)
6) Imp. Precise Shot (bonus feat), Weapon Specialization (class ability).
9) Reflexive Shot (class ability mimics snap shot)
10) Imp. Critical (bonus feat)

I did not use any regular feat slots, so you could assume Deadly Aim at 3rd and Clustered Shots at 9th. That leaves 1st, 5th, 7th & 11th for whatever you like (flavour to suit).

Your not going to be using Manyshot, which is a downer and ultimately hurts your DPR, but you don't have to take Iron Will because quite frankly your going to have a fantastic WILL save.

So at the end of the day you have better skills, more skill points, better saves, a renewable resource (Ki pool) and more open feat slots than the Fighter. Not to mention the fighter has to worry about those pesky cover & concealment penalties for twice as long as you (almost the entire game). All of this at the expense of doing a bit less damage (bearing in mind you still deal enough damage to kill things. Quickly).

AC is arguably a wash because depending on what feats you take (Snake/Crane) you may be able to negate attacks each round. Plus your touch AC will be much better regardless.