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I've only just started playing pathfinder society games earlier this year so I'm still trying to get a feel for the difficulty levels of the various tiers but nothing throws a fear of God into you like seeing a character die 2 minutes into a module.
<GM monologue about the setting for the module>
GM: Where do you want to sleep on the ship?
Player: On the poop deck.
GM: Roll me a perception check.
Player: *rolls* *fails*
GM: 4 Elf assassins climb up onto the ship right next to you and one coup de graces you.
It didn't help that the other player keeping watch (me) also failed the perception check but still.... It sort of makes you never want to never let your character sleep during a module again.
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Let me guess.
** spoiler omitted **
Also, did the character even get a fort save?
Whoa. That's pretty impressive that you picked the module out just based on that. Or is this one of the infamous ones?
He got his fort save but it was no good. At 2nd level, making a mid-20's fort save just isn't going to go well.
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Wow. That is, hands down one of the douchiest moves I've heard of a GM making to date. Especially considering that scenario is tier 1-5 if I recall correctly and that's the first encounter. Great way to discourage people from playing.
My recommendation would be to not play at that GMs table again. Giving players a challenge is one thing. Forcing players to reroll nearly out of the gate is not. Last I checked we were playing Pathfinder not Paranoia.
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Wow...What a dick. Sorry you had a bad experience. That adventure is a whole lot of fun if your GM doesn't ruin it for you. Clearly, they were out for blood.
Edit to add: Actually, come to think of it, that scenario is widely regarded as one of the two easiest in Society. This is the first time I've ever heard of a death on it. The behavior that you describe is far, far from the norm. I've been known to nudge fireball spells a square to the left to save unconscious new players before.
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It didn't help that the other player keeping watch (me) also failed the perception check but still.... It sort of makes you never want to never let your character sleep during a module again.
Assuming that at least one of you were awake, if your (sleeping) friend was in line of sight, the elf couldn't have performed a coupe on him before you (automatically) noticed him. That's how Stealth works. Coupe also isn't possible unless you are sleeping/helpless. If you were both asleep, I guess you deserved it.
Also, what others said about the scenario.
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This was my first character's experience playing Pathfinder Society...
I arrived a little late to a Society game so the DM allowed me to catch up to the party in the first area, before the first encounter. The mist obscured vision and when I entered the room another player was paranoid it was an enemy and attacked at the doorway. It was a crit. I was dead before I got to say hi.
Character Mk II enters as a replacement and avoids losing his head to PCs only to meet a varguille, fail every save and lose his head to a monster.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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This was my first character's experience playing Pathfinder Society...
I arrived a little late to a Society game so the DM allowed me to catch up to the party in the first area, before the first encounter. The mist obscured vision and when I entered the room another player was paranoid it was an enemy and attacked at the doorway. It was a crit. I was dead before I got to say hi.
Character Mk II enters as a replacement and avoids losing his head to PCs only to meet a varguille, fail every save and lose his head to a monster.
Good grief, man, where do you play? First of all, your first encounter couldn't have happened under PVP rules. Your second thing is possible, but it...I don't know. Shouldn't have happened. As a GM, I would have tried to make it not happen. You're a new player, and I don't kill new players until they've got at least a scenario or two under their belt.
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I played in my local area at a gaming club, not at a Con or anything. The GM sort of ruled the PvP didn't happen, hence Mk II. This was in Season 0, so it was a while ago.
I think the PvP is in a grey area there, I guess I didn't announce myself. The GM was playing up the haunting mist aspect though. The player who attacked me said it was in character as he didn't know what I was in the mist and he'd readied an action in case anything jumped the group.
In regard to the varguille attack, I couldn't roll a decent save - every save I made was under 10. The dice didn't favour that character at all.
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I was GMing a scenario at home back when you could choose to play up or down if you fell between tiers. In the first encounter, a outsider possessed brontosaurus skeleton killed the only tank-lke person in the party before any of the players were able to act. Rather than TPK and it all suck for everyone, I decided to let them reconsider their decision to play up.
Before the charges of "you can't do that" come. Take your pick of the following answers:
- I'm evoking the go easy on "new" players rule.
- I didn't know any better and it is too late now.
- I still think it was the best thing to do given the situation.
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The PVP is not a gray area in the slightest. The GM should have intervened.
In regards to the Vargouille, that takes hours to set, during which remove disease can be cast.
I think it was a new GM. Unfortunately, we were 1st level. I was incapacitated and diseased, the party was out of healing, and there was little anyone could do for me (I couldn't be carried by others either. I think I may have been left in the dungeon).
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Words of wisdom from my GM:
"...and a ghoul enters the room and attacks (rolls 1d4) Taja. No, wait a second: You just drove two hours at a moments notice to get here and your character was unconscious for the entire 'climactic fight', so I'm not going to incapacitate you again. She attacks someone else..."
Also of possible note, this is a 'home' campaign using PFS rules
Technically, it didn't really matter (the ghoul rolled poorly to hit and didn't get a second attack), but a little human decency is not uncalled for...
Doing a Coup de grace on a sleeping level 1 PC at the very start of an adventure is uncalled for on so many levels...
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This was why I ran Scenario 0 stuff for a good couple of months
A) I was new to society
B) I was told that while individually different, the challenge level wasnt as high. I wanted characters/ players (and Im finding it funny that people are talking about killing players in some of the posts above) to experience a bit more of society because other season difficulties kicked in. Thats not to say a character didnt die.
We lost a Paladin to a crit in an epic desert battle. (In fact of the 2 characters I have dispatched whilst gming both have been Paladins)
The closest Ive come to douchery is when the Cleric BBEG I was running cast Bleed on a fallen character who had failed his first stabilisation check (the rest of the party retreated/ran away). They luckily managed to get to the character again and get a heal check underway
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Good grief, man, where do you play? First of all, your first encounter couldn't have happened under PVP rules. Your second thing is possible, but it...I don't know. Shouldn't have happened. As a GM, I would have tried to make it not happen. You're a new player, and I don't kill new players until they've got at least a scenario or two under their belt.
Not true. PCs cannot INTENTIONALLY kill other PCs, but can do so if they are compelled or otherwise forced to do so. I believe that's the rule.
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I'm disappointed. Like Kevin Sorbo disappointed. It took me 3 rounds in this year's Gen Con Special to kill Joe Caubo's character. To be fair, it was also only 28 minutes into the start of the scenario as well.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Good grief, man, where do you play? First of all, your first encounter couldn't have happened under PVP rules. Your second thing is possible, but it...I don't know. Shouldn't have happened. As a GM, I would have tried to make it not happen. You're a new player, and I don't kill new players until they've got at least a scenario or two under their belt.Not true. PCs cannot INTENTIONALLY kill other PCs, but can do so if they are compelled or otherwise forced to do so. I believe that's the rule.
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While this is correct, it is not the situation that was described. You cannot strike another PC without their permission unless you are under a mind-affecting effect.
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Coup de gracing a character like that is pretty bad, I'd avoid that GM.
I've only really coup de graced as a GM in two situations, the TPK where people were unconscious or paralyzed but the ghoul was hungry and another one where some one failed their will save and coup de graced themself, that was funny actually, he passed for fort save for it.
My personal best for fastest death?
I had a huge owlbear make a full attack on a ranger.
He started with full HP...
That day that player learnt the lesson of 8 con.
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While this is correct, it is not the situation that was described. You cannot strike another PC without their permission unless you are under a mind-affecting effect.
Good grief, man, where do you play? First of all, your first encounter couldn't have happened under PVP rules. Your second thing is possible, but it...I don't know. Shouldn't have happened. As a GM, I would have tried to make it not happen. You're a new player, and I don't kill new players until they've got at least a scenario or two under their belt.Not true. PCs cannot INTENTIONALLY kill other PCs, but can do so if they are compelled or otherwise forced to do so. I believe that's the rule.
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If it is the scenario I think it is,
As to the Vargouille, well in the scenario is question it would be possible to become one as the PCs go into the location at night.
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Before a GM uses Coup de Grace at the table, they need to ask themselves several questions:
1. Is it written into the tactics?
2. Is there some sort of benefit for the NPCs to use CdG?
3. Would using CdG be fun for the player(s)?
4. Has the player in question demonstrated the ability to take an 'automatic death' in stride?
If it's written into the tactics, the GM *still* doesn't have to use it if the answer to #3 or 4 is no. I tend to only use CdG vs. players I know or at high level tables where the PCs really shouldn't put themselves into a CdG situation. Using CdG at level 1-2 vs. a PC not controlled by a close friend is poor form. If it's against Bob Jonquet or Joe Caubo, use it liberally.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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While this is correct, it is not the situation that was described. You cannot strike another PC without their permission unless you are under a mind-affecting effect.
Good grief, man, where do you play? First of all, your first encounter couldn't have happened under PVP rules. Your second thing is possible, but it...I don't know. Shouldn't have happened. As a GM, I would have tried to make it not happen. You're a new player, and I don't kill new players until they've got at least a scenario or two under their belt.Not true. PCs cannot INTENTIONALLY kill other PCs, but can do so if they are compelled or otherwise forced to do so. I believe that's the rule.
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If it is the scenario I think it is, ** spoiler omitted ** then it is possible that the PC was under the influence of a mind-affecting effect.
If, on the other hand, the PC had resisted the effect then he should not have been able to attack the other player.
As to the Vargouille, well in the scenario is question it would be possible to become one as the PCs go into the location at night.
** spoiler omitted **
I hadn't thought about that scenario.
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While this is correct, it is not the situation that was described. You cannot strike another PC without their permission unless you are under a mind-affecting effect.
Good grief, man, where do you play? First of all, your first encounter couldn't have happened under PVP rules. Your second thing is possible, but it...I don't know. Shouldn't have happened. As a GM, I would have tried to make it not happen. You're a new player, and I don't kill new players until they've got at least a scenario or two under their belt.Not true. PCs cannot INTENTIONALLY kill other PCs, but can do so if they are compelled or otherwise forced to do so. I believe that's the rule.
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Or unless they are defending against a mind-controlled PC?
(This came up in a game where the GM *almost* stopped me from tripping the mind-controlled barbarian before he could curbstomp the wizard.)
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While this is correct, it is not the situation that was described. You cannot strike another PC without their permission unless you are under a mind-affecting effect.
Good grief, man, where do you play? First of all, your first encounter couldn't have happened under PVP rules. Your second thing is possible, but it...I don't know. Shouldn't have happened. As a GM, I would have tried to make it not happen. You're a new player, and I don't kill new players until they've got at least a scenario or two under their belt.Not true. PCs cannot INTENTIONALLY kill other PCs, but can do so if they are compelled or otherwise forced to do so. I believe that's the rule.
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If it is the scenario I think it is, ** spoiler omitted ** then it is possible that the PC was under the influence of a mind-affecting effect.
If, on the other hand, the PC had resisted the effect then he should not have been able to attack the other player.
As to the Vargouille, well in the scenario is question it would be possible to become one as the PCs go into the location at night.
** spoiler omitted **
I hadn't thought about that scenario.
** spoiler omitted **
That is why I said if the PC had resisted the effect then he should not have been able to attack the other PC, so GM error.
As for the Vargouille, well minimum 4 hours, but the player did say that he thinks he was left in the dungeon by the others and if they did not complete the scenario, well the worst would have happened.
Also, if they were all 1st level and new PCs and a new DM, then they might not have been aware of the spell-casting possibilities at the scenario's end.
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I'm disappointed. Like Kevin Sorbo disappointed. It took me 3 rounds in this year's Gen Con Special to kill Joe Caubo's character. To be fair, it was also only 28 minutes into the start of the scenario as well.
Yes, CMIX too lose valiant friend at Bonekeep 2, in the very first room, this year. Brave brave Dog die mercilessly at hands of, well, at hands of fireball launched by party wizard, who had no choice, and no way of knowing Dog was in line of fire. Luckily, due to oddities of Pathfinder Society Rules, character death is costly, but loss of animal companion is easily remedied by replace with Dog too in very next adventure!
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Using CDG under those conditions is dick move. I'm pretty sure you aren't supposed to be using CDG on PCs except under special circumstances. I have only used CDG on a PC once. It was a ghoul whose tactics state that he waits just inside the doorway and fights one character at a time in the doorway. First pc walked up to fight it and gets paralyzed. Second pc tries to get in provokes AoO gets paralyzed. Third PC bullrushes the paralyzed PCs out of the way and steps in. The ranged attackers and spellcasters had him 4 HP from death before his turn came around and he had only a paralyzed human in front of him. This is the only time I have ever seen CDG an acceptable course of action for an NPC. This was also tier 6-7.
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Before a GM uses Coup de Grace at the table, they need to ask themselves several questions:
1. Is it written into the tactics?
2. Is there some sort of benefit for the NPCs to use CdG?
3. Would using CdG be fun for the player(s)?
4. Has the player in question demonstrated the ability to take an 'automatic death' in stride?If it's written into the tactics, the GM *still* doesn't have to use it if the answer to #3 or 4 is no. I tend to only use CdG vs. players I know or at high level tables where the PCs really shouldn't put themselves into a CdG situation. Using CdG at level 1-2 vs. a PC not controlled by a close friend is poor form. If it's against Bob Jonquet or Joe Caubo, use it liberally.
Are there some situations, where not using CdG results in more PC deaths, than using CdG would have?
If the monsters ignore the helpless PC, and launches themselves at PCs who are still conscious, it could result in the last PCs being downed, and the whole table suffering a TPK, as opposed to one monster exiting from the fight, dragging a PC, who was already written off as a lost cause.
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I know of a game of 4-11 The Disapeared that the players failed while trying to get into the building in the first act because their solution to everything, and I mean *everything*, was to try and kill anyone/anything they could.