Can the now-imprisoned good Elemental Lords grant spells?

[Thanatokleos]

Every so often, I get the Elemental Planes on the brain, as a character concept I'd one day like to play is a Sorcerer working to restore a good Elemental Lord to power. This leads to a number of questions, several of which are:

• Given that the evil Elemental Lords can grant spells to their followers, could the good Elemental Lords do the same?
• Moreover, in their diminished state (presumably all trapped within artifacts made of the essence of the opposing element's evil Elemental Lord, such as the Moaning Diamond), could they still do so?
• If so, what would their domains be?

(this is probably the first of many questions for the forum about the good elemental lords. :P)

EDIT: Given that I'm not aware of any official answers to these questions, I fully expect and welcome speculation; of course, if these answers are out there, I'd be very interested to know!

[Mojorat]

I had no idea there were good elemental lords. Where are they mentioned

[Alleran]

Mojorat wrote:

I had no idea there were good elemental lords. Where are they mentioned

They come up in the history of the Moaning Diamond artifact, in Artifacts and Legends. The Diamond contains the essence of the good elemental lord Sairazul (Earth, obviously).

[Mojorat]

My guess is in general that they cant grant spelps while trapped. However it sounds like a good plor hook in a game where the goal is too free one.

[Thanatokleos]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too. If I were GMing (though I'd much prefer playing in this case!), here's what I was thinking for the good elemental lords, based on what little we know of them, and using their counterparts for comparison/inspiration:

The good Elemental Lords:
Formerly one of the two lords presiding over each of the Elemental Planes, these powerful beings were the match for their evil counterparts. However, they were overcome when these counterparts decided to work together, jointly overcoming their rivals. The good Elemental Lords, powerful as they were, proved unprepared for the efforts of the opposing element, and were trapped within the essence of these foes, eternally tormented and imprisoned within the artifacts now known as the Moaning Diamond, the Gasping Pearl, the Garnet Brand, and the Untouchable Opal.

(Air) Ranginori:
Titles: the Duke of Thunder
Home: Unknown, Plane of Air (Currently imprisoned in the Untouchable Opal)
Alignment: Neutral Good
Portfolio: Air
Cleric Alignments: Neutral, Any Good
Domains: Air, Artifice, Weather
Subdomains: Cloud, Storms
Favored Weapon: Longspear

(Earth) Sairazul:
Titles: the Crystalline Queen
Home: Unknown, Plane of Earth (Currently imprisoned in the Moaning Diamond)
Alignment: Neutral Good
Portfolio: Earth
Cleric Alignments: Neutral, Any Good
Domains: Artifice, Earth, Trickery
Subdomains: Caves, Deception
Favored Weapon: Butterfly Knife

(Fire) Atreia:
Titles: the Lambent Prince
Home: Unknown, Plane of Fire (Currently imprisoned in the Gasping Pearl)
Alignment: Neutral Good
Portfolio: Fire
Cleric Alignments: Neutral, Any Good
Domains: Artifice, Fire, Sun
Subdomains: Light, Revelation
Favored Weapon: Chakram

(Water) Lysianassa:
Titles: Empress of the Torrent
Home: Unknown, Plane of Water (Currently imprisoned in the Garnet Brand)
Alignment: Neutral Good
Portfolio: Water
Cleric Alignments: Neutral, Any Good
Domains: Artifice, Strength, Water
Subdomains: Ferocity, Oceans
Favored Weapon: Harpoon

(As a side-note, the Gasping Pearl and the Garnet Brand were always a bit unclear to me which was which: For example, with the Moaning Diamond, we have the "moaning" of wind and the Diamond, a stone I'd associated with earth given its provenance under the pressure of stone. Likewise, opals have always had an air elemental association, and for 'untouchable', I imagine Ranginori is trapped within solid stone, probably eternally compressing around him. But Garnet Brand seems to have two fire-elemental associations, and likewise, so the Gasping Pearl has two water-elemental associations. Here, I've sorted them according to their 'torment', rather than the stone's element.)

Given that each of the evil Elemental Lords had Destruction as a domain, I figured the natural balance to that would be Artifice, so I gave that to each of the good Elemental Lords. Also, some of the Elemental subdomains just didn't make sense, given the Elemental Lord's title, so I used some in their supplementary Domain, instead. I'm a bit lost when it comes to favored weapons, but I made some guesses. For the Crystalline Queen's Trickery/Deception, my inspiration was the Crysmals. Let me know what you think!

[Alleran]

Useful. Do note that since the Elemental Lords are probably all demigods, they might need to be offering four domains each (five is limited to full deities, but four is what most demon lords, archdukes, demigods, empyreal lords and so on deliver).

[Seventh Seal]

Eventhough it has been mentioned that "conceptual symmetry"* is not that big an aim in Pathfinder (or, at least, in the Golarion setting), still dotting for the shear-utility of this! ^^

*So, just because the elemental lords are EVIL, does not mean that there are or ever were counterparts that are GOOD in Golarion canon, as was the case in D&D (up to at least 2nd Ed AD&D). Doesn't mean one cannot add them to one's Golarion campaign, though...

Just a BTW.

[Amaranthine Witch]

Actually, as the Moaning Diamond and trapped good elemental lords story is from Artifacts and Legends, a campaign setting book, they are canon (until/unless they retcon it away).

Alleran wrote:

Useful. Do note that since the Elemental Lords are probably all demigods, they might need to be offering four domains each (five is limited to full deities, but four is what most demon lords, archdukes, demigods, empyreal lords and so on deliver).

They should grant the Good domain.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but they are dead. Notice JJ said this after Artifacts and Legends was released. A creature can be killed and still have its soul captured before it can make its way to the Boneyard. This has happened a few times in Golarion canon.

Seventh Seal wrote:

*So, just because the elemental lords are EVIL, does not mean that there are or ever were counterparts that are GOOD in Golarion canon, as was the case in D&D (up to at least 2nd Ed AD&D). Doesn't mean one cannot add them to one's Golarion campaign, though...

Yes, there were good elemental lords in Golarion canon.

Reminder:
The Pathfinder Wiki is your friend.

[Aberzombie]

I think the good versus evil elemental lords is also mentioned in the Inner Sea World Guide.

[divineshadow]

Yep they are Canon its just they are a loose thread no one has gotten around to tying anything too yet. I imagine they will be an ap at some point. Which will be awesome.

[Icyshadow]

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but they are dead. Notice JJ said this after Artifacts and Legends was released. A creature can be killed and still have its soul captured before it can make its way to the Boneyard. This has happened a few times in Golarion canon.

Seventh Seal wrote:

*So, just because the elemental lords are EVIL, does not mean that there are or ever were counterparts that are GOOD in Golarion canon, as was the case in D&D (up to at least 2nd Ed AD&D). Doesn't mean one cannot add them to one's Golarion campaign, though...

Yes, there were good elemental lords in Golarion canon.

Reminder:
The Pathfinder Wiki is your friend.

And who said they have to stay permanently dead? ;D

[Lord Fyre]

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but they are dead. Notice JJ said this after Artifacts and Legends was released. A creature can be killed and still have its soul captured before it can make its way to the Boneyard. This has happened a few times in Golarion canon.

But then, I wonder, could they transfer their "divinity" to an appropriate Mythic PC? That transfer acting as the catalyst for the heroes' mythic ascension.

The campaign would culminate (Lvl 20/Mythic 10) in some event that would "deify" the heroes.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

Lord Fyre wrote:

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but they are dead. Notice JJ said this after Artifacts and Legends was released. A creature can be killed and still have its soul captured before it can make its way to the Boneyard. This has happened a few times in Golarion canon.

But then, I wonder, could they transfer their "divinity" to an appropriate Lvl 20 Mythic 10 PC? (i.e., Quest of the Starstone)

That transfer acting as the catalyst for the heroes' mythic ascension.

Now that would make for an epic quest!

[Seventh Seal]

I was actually attempting to explain what was meant by "'conceptual symmetry' is not that big an aim..." in the ooc part of the post.

Nonetheless, I stand corrected. My apologies.

[Alleran]

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but they are dead. Notice JJ said this after Artifacts and Legends was released. A creature can be killed and still have its soul captured before it can make its way to the Boneyard. This has happened a few times in Golarion canon.

There's indeed a difference between dead and dead. Aroden, for example, is dead. Your fellow PC who just got disintegrated, trapped in a gem, or similar? Different story.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

Alleran wrote:

There's indeed a difference between dead and dead. Aroden, for example, is dead. Your fellow PC who just got disintegrated, trapped in a gem, or similar? Different story.

Is there? Do you know exactly how Aroden "died"? Deities have been brought back in other settings. There is no precedence in Golarion for that happening, but what may the future hold?

[Lord Fyre]

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Alleran wrote:

There's indeed a difference between dead and dead. Aroden, for example, is dead. Your fellow PC who just got disintegrated, trapped in a gem, or similar? Different story.

Is there? Do you know exactly how Aroden "died"? Deities have been brought back in other settings. There is no precedence in Golarion for that happening, but what may the future hold?

My indirect return idea would still be a more interesting and fun way to go. :)

[James Jacobs]

At this point, the good elemental lords can't grant spells. Likely because they're dead AND imprisoned. The actual truth of what happened to them and all that is not a "We'll never reveal the truth" mystery, but it IS a "we're not yet ready to reveal the truth" mystery.

[Set]

It could be a funky plot element that some wild-eyed old adept is hoarding a few scrolls that hold divine spells that were fashioned by clerics of [insert dead god here] back when that god was still around and granting spells. As all of [dead god's] clerics are now dead, the only fragments of its divine power remain locked up in those scrolls.

Mechanically, there's absolutely nothing special about them. They're just a small collection of aging scrolls of low level divine spells, but to the cult that revere the memory of [dead god], they are literally the last remnants of that gods power on Golarion, the holiest of all possible holies, and they guard even the knowledge of their existence more fanatically than the bones of every saint who ever sainted.

Crazy? Perhaps. And yet there are forces that went around soon after the death of [god X] and bought up (or stole, or seized by force) and destroyed all of the remaining scrolls and potions and wands created by their clergy, burned down their churches and hunted and killed any priest who still had spells prepared, as if it was somehow vital to make their victory complete and eradicate every single speck of that gods divine power on this plane...

[Quandary]

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but they are dead. Notice JJ said this after Artifacts and Legends was released. A creature can be killed and still have its soul captured before it can make its way to the Boneyard. This has happened a few times in Golarion canon.

Well, this is very interesting, I wasn't even aware of these Good Elemental Lords in the first place...

Although I'm not quite solid on this scenario, since as Outsiders their souls are supposedly fused with their body, and would not ever make their way to the Boneyard upon death...?
But as said, if their soul is captured in such a state, that means it could be rezzed or transferred to a different body.

Since JJ is around here, any thoughts on what domains/sub-domains these guys would grant, even if they're not currently doing so?
Would this 'killing/soul-trapping a demi-god and stopping their domains from being granted' thing mean that the other Elemental Lords or other deities in fact 'stole' their Domains from them, as seems to happen with other deities as such from time to time?

[James Jacobs]

Quandary wrote:

Since JJ is around here, any thoughts on what domains/sub-domains these guys would grant, even if they're not currently doing so?

Would this 'killing/soul-trapping a demi-god and stopping their domains from being granted' thing mean that the other Elemental Lords or other deities in fact 'stole' their Domains from them, as seems to happen with other deities as such from time to time?

I do have thoughts, but I'm not ready to reveal them yet. There are plans, if only long-term, for ALL of the elemental lords, and I don't want to reveal those plans when they're still in formation.

The other elemental lords didn't steal domains at all. They had those domains even before they killed the other ones.

[Thanatokleos]

James Jacobs wrote:

Quandary wrote:

Since JJ is around here, any thoughts on what domains/sub-domains these guys would grant, even if they're not currently doing so?

Would this 'killing/soul-trapping a demi-god and stopping their domains from being granted' thing mean that the other Elemental Lords or other deities in fact 'stole' their Domains from them, as seems to happen with other deities as such from time to time?

I do have thoughts, but I'm not ready to reveal them yet. There are plans, if only long-term, for ALL of the elemental lords, and I don't want to reveal those plans when they're still in formation.

The other elemental lords didn't steal domains at all. They had those domains even before they killed the other ones.

Nice - glad to hear I can look forward to more Elemental Plane goodness in the future! (This may or may not stem my tide of rampant speculation for the time being, though. :v)

[Alleran]

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Alleran wrote:

There's indeed a difference between dead and dead. Aroden, for example, is dead. Your fellow PC who just got disintegrated, trapped in a gem, or similar? Different story.

Is there? Do you know exactly how Aroden "died"? Deities have been brought back in other settings. There is no precedence in Golarion for that happening, but what may the future hold?

As far as I'm aware, Aroden has been judged by Pharasma and so he can't return. In my example of PCs who just got disintegrated, they're waiting for resurrection are still effectively waiting in line at the Boneyard - once they're past the judgement point, they're non-resurrectable and have moved on.

Yes, this could change because A Wizard Did It, A God Did It, retroactive continuity, or any combination of those and/or others. That changes nothing about the way things stand at present.

[Quandary]

James Jacobs wrote:

I do have thoughts, but I'm not ready to reveal them yet. There are plans, if only long-term, for ALL of the elemental lords, and I don't want to reveal those plans when they're still in formation. The other elemental lords didn't steal domains at all. They had those domains even before they killed the other ones.

Cool... Looking forward to the secret plans inside of secret plans...

Somehow this subplot reminds me of the Alignment dichotomy in a certain Negative Energy Plane race.
(and the mystery of Positive/Negative Energy Elementals, mostly only name-dropped in Oracle Life Mystery AFAIK)

[Quandary]

Alleran wrote:

As far as I'm aware, Aroden has been judged by Pharasma and so he can't return.

Where is that from? Wouldn't Deities be Outsiders, and thus with a fused soul unable to be judged and re-incarnated/judged by Pharasma? Somehow I just feel that Deity death is beyond the scope of Pharasma's Judgement.

[Alleran]

Nope. It's mentioned that killing Ydersius and destroying that oversized bony head of his can be accomplished by restoring it to his body, and then killing the just-revived and very-weakened god in the presence of Pharasma, so she can judge the soul immediately.

Even gods die and are judged. One day, Pharasma herself will show up in the line at the Boneyard to be judged by her.

[Dredd]And the sentence is death.[/Dredd]

[Quandary]

So you're saying Aroden was killed in the presence of Pharasma and judged?
I thought it wasn't even clear whether he was truly dead...?

[Lord Fyre]

Alleran wrote:

Even gods die and are judged. One day, Pharasma herself will show up in the line at the Boneyard to be judged by her.

More likely Pharasma would be judged by her successor.

Quandary wrote:

So you're saying Aroden was killed in the presence of Pharasma and judged?

I thought it wasn't even clear whether he was truly dead...?

Not quite, but unlike the serpent god would, Aroden did not attempt to flee judgement.

This was how Ydersius avoided final death when his head was cut off.

[Alleran]

Quandary wrote:

So you're saying Aroden was killed in the presence of Pharasma and judged?

I thought it wasn't even clear whether he was truly dead...?

No, he was killed by unknown means and method, but he was judged by Pharasma in the Boneyard after he died (since he was dead, and that's what happens to the dead). He's unequivocally dead. Carked it. Checked out of the Heartbreak Hotel. Shuffled off this mortal plane. Pining for the fjords. Ceased to be. Expired. Bereft of life, rests in peace. Pushing up daisies. His metabolic processes are now history. Off the twig, kicked the bucket, run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. He is an ex-god.

Furthermore, his clerics lost their spells. He's dead, and the mystery is why and how it happened.

Lord Fyre wrote:

More likely Pharasma would be judged by her successor.

I took it from a quote, actually.

See this link, specifically the following:

"The way a god's death certificate looks in Golarion is all of his clerics suddenly and forevermore losing the ability to cast spells or be clerics until they shift religions." ~James Jacobs

"Everything will eventually die. Pharasma knows this. She'll know WHEN it happens when she shows up in the line to be judged by herself." ~James Jacobs

But this is getting off topic into Aroden's circumstances and quotes from Monty Python pet shop sketches, so bringing it back to the good Elemental Lords. They're dead, but they don't seem to have been judged yet because their essences/souls/whatever are currently trapped. So they could, in theory (I suppose), be freed from their imprisoned states.

Whether that would entail using the method of destruction suggested for the Moaning Diamond (in the case of Sairazul), a straight disjunction (which, even if successful, is certain to invoke the interest of the evil Elemental Lords), or something else, is uncertain. For all that anybody knows, destroying the Moaning Diamond could just free Sairazul's essence to travel to the Boneyard and be judged by Pharasma. It might be what's ensuring that the Elemental Lords don't move on.

[Set]

It would be amusing and ironic if Pharasma died, got to the head of the queue, and Urgathoa was there, in her chair, having inherited her job as the most powerful god of death remaining.

"That confusion and outrage you're feeling right now? Now you understand how I felt all those millennia ago when I refused to accept your judgment over me..."

[James Jacobs]

Quandary wrote:

Alleran wrote:

As far as I'm aware, Aroden has been judged by Pharasma and so he can't return.

Where is that from? Wouldn't Deities be Outsiders, and thus with a fused soul unable to be judged and re-incarnated/judged by Pharasma? Somehow I just feel that Deity death is beyond the scope of Pharasma's Judgement.

Outsiders still have souls; the fact that their souls and bodies are fused into one doesn't change that.

[Ross Byers]

[tinfoil hat]Also, Aroden was a mortal, once.[/tinfoil]

[Set]

Ross Byers wrote:

[tinfoil hat]Also, Aroden was a mortal, once.[/tinfoil]

[extra conspiracy]Possibly more than once.[/extra conspiracy]

[Icyshadow]

I don't know, I wanted to include a plot related to the Moaning Diamond into my current Kingmaker,
but Sairazul being unable to grant spells to any potential followers would get in the way of how I wanted to run it...

[Alleran]

Icyshadow wrote:

I don't know, I wanted to include a plot related to the Moaning Diamond into my current Kingmaker,

but Sairazul being unable to grant spells to any potential followers would get in the way of how I wanted to run it...

Change it to say that she can, perhaps? Or even, if you feel comfortable with it (handing out artifacts being what it is), give the artifact to the PCs at a certain level directly, and thus allow them to obtain granted spells on the grounds that they're currently in possession of the item that holds her essence?

[Icyshadow]

How I have it planned:

I don't plan to give it to them in the traditional sense. One of the kobolds allied with the PCs, a cleric of Abadar (formerly a Cleric of Mammon) named Ixenmirik, happens to find it after seeing a dream about the Crystalline Queen (which leads him to worshipping Sairazul instead of Abadar), but decides to hide it while rumours of it being in the Stolen Land begin to spread. As time goes on, Pathfinders and members of the Aspsis Consortium begin to pop up alongside cultists of Abraxas, Norgorber and Ayrzul, all wanting to find the artifact for their own purposes.

Of course, Ixenmirik doesn't plan to tell anyone, not even his Chief, about where he hid the Moaning Diamond.
The heroes might be able to convince him to reveal the location, but only if they agree to help him free the goddess.

[Azazyll]

You could have them be Oracles with the Stone mystery instead.

[Icyshadow]

I honestly dislike the Oracle class, and I already wrote Ixenmiril up as a Cleric. Now if an Oracle could have a domain, I would then reconsider. The Radiation Subdomain (for kobold Clerics who have the Earth domain) is just part of his character, and I will not give that up under any circumstances. He has even given himself the title "Radiant" due to the glowing (radioactive) holy symbol he proudly carries on his necklace, the effects of which don't harm him at all.

[Set]

That concept rocks. Run with it.

Perhaps the trapped god(dess) can only grant spells to someone who bears a holy symbol made from the same bed of radioactive crystal from which her prison was formed? The cleric may find attempts to raise other clerics frustrated until he can get his hands on more of that crystal, and stuck having sub-priests that can only gain adept levels, for now (until A) he finds the appropriate crystal to make symbols for them and they can start to upgrade their adept levels to cleric levels, or B) the goddess is freed, and they can start to upgrade their adept levels to cleric levels).

Presumably the evil elemental god will be working its butt off to prevent option 2 from occurring, and send some cultists and / or minions occasionally to discourage option 1...