So i have rapid fire and manyshot, and im aware they can be used together. Can vital strike be added in there too? And can an archer maximize vital strike to be a "heavy hitter"? I know its not the usually archer route, but im exploring the idea.
So i could apply it to the first shot i make?
So i could apply it to the first shot i make?
You apply it to the ONLY shot you make in a round
No,
When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage.
So you can make 1 attack only.
So it could work with manyshot? Cuz that is firing once? Forgive me, im rusty with it all
Got it, thank you. Still, while not working with my current build- which in our game archers get more love- the idea intrigues me. Weapon damage will be gioing up and i have a sick bow already, but still only a d8. Thanks all!
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You might read the FAQ entry for Vital Strike:
Vital Strike: Can I use this with Spring Attack, or on a charge?
No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Spring Attack is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action. Charging uses similar language and can also not be used in combination with Vital Strike.
—Jason Bulmahn, 11/30/12
It doesn't matter how many attacks you are making, or the order of those attacks, it matters what action is being taken. Vital Strike only applies to the specific "Attack" action, not just any attack roll, or any action which does an attack (regardless of whether that action is typed as a Standard Action, Full-Round Action, or non-action ala Attack of Opportunity). If you are using Rapid Fire or Many-Shot you are by definition using the Full-Attack Action, not the "Attack" action. Likewise why Vital Strike doesn't work with Spring Attack or Charge (which both allow just one attack), per the FAQ. I believe Nick Murray above has the correct sentiment, even if he confused the terminology to be the exact opposite.
Thanks again, that clears up using them together, appreciate it. For my current game i do pretty good damage, and have precise shot, rapid shot, manyshot, point blank shot, deadly aim, bull's eye shot, and...Thats it i think. Archer4/fighter2, so i could go the weapon spec route if i wanted to lose some damage to shadowspawn-and thats the toss up right there.
Alternately, i wanted to discuss a vital strike archer build-what would work and not work with it. An archer who only fires that one shot a round, and if it could be optimized at all.
Thanks again all
Katryn
The build that uses vital strike doesn't use a bow. Its a crossbow build.
It is also not very good. Vital strike is a trap feat and unless you know how to make it really work will lower your DPR by a very large margin. The effort involved in making Vital strike work exceeds its usefulness 90 percent of the time. It can be good with very specific monsters/builds but those require you to use size bonuses to weapon damage so the weapon dice are large and numerous.
Vital Strike is not a "trap feat." The idea that Vital Strike would be your primary offense is a trap mindset, but the feat itself is equal in utility to most feats, and better than many that are commonly taken.
With bows, the primary strategy is going to be full attacks. With crossbows, the Vital Strike strategy starts to make more sense, but the strategy of focusing on damage per round then makes less sense. The best strategy for a crossbow-wielding ranged attacker is to focus on denying opponents THEIR full attacks, either by going prone against range attacks, or by using a scoot-and-shoot approach against melee opponents.
I agree the feat is pretty much useless, but I'm wondering why a dragon in an adventure is allowed to vital strike and then use it's wings to attack? Was this a mistake or are you saying only certain other parts of the body can attack?
Sometimes scenarios have wanky "ignore the rules mechanics". Maybe that is what was going on.
VS is a single attack option, but far from "pretty much useless". I rank that concept up there with, "Never heal during combat". If you're denied your full attack, why wouldn't you use Vital Strike? If you're having issues with bypassing DR, why wouldn't you use Vital Strike?
Because if your getting 3 attacks and denigned one still, still is it worth it? Maybe there is something that would keep you from attacking but once in around but how often? Even with dr the average of the party seems not to have too much issues with it. Save that point for maybe a better save? something would help you with getting threw dr?
Just saying.
And really 'up there with' If you don't agree dont agree, no reason to be just douche about it.
Mast, read this thread on Vital Strike. It might provide clarity.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ow5u&page=1?The-big-hit-build
Sometimes scenarios have wanky "ignore the rules mechanics". Maybe that is what was going on.
VS is a single attack option, but far from "pretty much useless". I rank that concept up there with, "Never heal during combat". If you're denied your full attack, why wouldn't you use Vital Strike? If you're having issues with bypassing DR, why wouldn't you use Vital Strike?
Because you had to spend Feats on it you could have used for other things.
And Feats are the most limited resource in this game.
Sometimes scenarios have wanky "ignore the rules mechanics". Maybe that is what was going on.
VS is a single attack option, but far from "pretty much useless". I rank that concept up there with, "Never heal during combat". If you're denied your full attack, why wouldn't you use Vital Strike? If you're having issues with bypassing DR, why wouldn't you use Vital Strike?
Because you had to spend Feats on it you could have used for other things.
And Feats are the most limited resource in this game.
I was presuming that you had the feat. I've never taken the feat on any characters personally, but given the build - I 'd use it as I described. ...and you would too.
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Because if your getting 3 attacks and denigned one still, still is it worth it? Maybe there is something that would keep you from attacking but once in around but how often? Even with dr the average of the party seems not to have too much issues with it. Save that point for maybe a better save? something would help you with getting threw dr?
Just saying.
And really 'up there with' If you don't agree dont agree, no reason to be just douche about it.
Frankly, if you think you're going to pull off a full attack most rounds, you would be hamburger in the games I run.
Is this: referring to an Archer Fighter Archetype/Vanilla Fighter Multiclass?
If so... Well, that's a big no no. You just can't do that,
since even though the abilities of the Archetypes are different, they still count as the same class,
and you can't take levels in the same class 'starting over' in different class paths (like Sorceror Bloodlines),
further levels in the same class can ONLY 'stack' and progress that class progression, and one you select an Archetype,
all levels in that class are now of that Archetype, you cannot choose which abilities to receive or not receive,
other than simply not taking any more levels in that Class at all.
Frankly, if you think you're going to pull off a full attack most rounds, you would be hamburger in the games I run.
Frankly, if a character can't pull of a full attack most rounds in the vast majority of games (and based on the usual assumptions of the game), they will be hamburger.
Even with Vital Strike and all the Feats that chain off of it you're doing a pitiful amount of damage as compared to monster HP.
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Frankly, if you think you're going to pull off a full attack most rounds, you would be hamburger in the games I run.
Frankly, if a character can't pull of a full attack most rounds in the vast majority of games (and based on the usual assumptions of the game), they will be hamburger.
Even with Vital Strike and all the Feats that chain off of it you're doing a pitiful amount of damage as compared to monster HP.
I guess that's why I committed TPK in all the games I've run.
Not!
Frankly, if you think you're going to pull off a full attack most rounds, you would be hamburger in the games I run.
Frankly, if a character can't pull of a full attack most rounds in the vast majority of games (and based on the usual assumptions of the game), they will be hamburger.
Even with Vital Strike and all the Feats that chain off of it you're doing a pitiful amount of damage as compared to monster HP.
I guess that's why I committed TPK in all the games I've run.
Not!
Go back.
Actually read my post.
Find the key words.
Bullseye Shot and Vital Strike work very well together...Since you give up your move action with Bullseye Shot and can only do a standard action then Vital strike is the perfect complement.
Once you factor in the fact that you are usually shooting thru cover...usually the meat shield...then offsetting that -4 with the +4 from Bullseye Shot is great.
My Lvl 7 Fighter...with 17 Dex...can pull off a +15 To Hit using PBS, Bullseye Shot, Deadly Aim, and Vital Strike for 2d8+11 Damage...and that's with a +1 Mighty +2 Str Bow...nothing to complain about.
Sure the Manyshot/Rapidshot allows more damage in theory but you still have to hit the target first and the above combo means that you will hit appropriate CR creatures without any trouble.
I can do this without having to tank my Ftr's stats by buying up a huge Dex at the expense of everything else.
He's does great in Society play and unless he rolls a 1 or occasionally a bit higher depending on AC he will do damage every round.
He has Full Plate and a Greataxe so he can hold his own in melee as well if it comes to that....not a one trick pony
Relax.
Make some coffee.
Enjoy life.
Relax.
Make some coffee.
Enjoy life.
Coffee works as a downer on me.
=/
A smoothie. Make a smoothie.
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Relax.
Make some coffee.
Enjoy life.
Coffee works as a downer on me.
=/
A smoothie. Make a smoothie.
Okay, that made me laugh. If only all lively discussions ended this way. :)
To answer the "fighter2/archer4" question, no, completely different actually. I difnt repease it cuz i wtote it in anither thread, but we play a Wheel of Time pathfinder conversion. Ill postbthe link again. Its been great so far! I am playing a woodman (ranger) with the blight scout archetype. I took two levels of armsman (fighter) for the bonus feats, and im loving life. I have a dm made Two Rivers bow- 1D8 19-20x3 +str!!! The bow is OP in dnd terms, but the DM says archery blows in dnd, and that all bows should add str. Fine by me lol
So wait a minute, ive been using bullseye shot wrong i think, using it in conjunction with rapid/many. I probably wouldnt have taken it if id realized, but the dm usually doesnt allow retraining. Poop.
Thanks to all for responding, im glad i could elicit some heated debate with smoothie satisfaction. ;)
Actually that bow isn't OP, you can get the same effect with a cheap magic Item. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/brace rs-of-falcon-s-aim
Also your GM is wrong about archery, he might have been right in D&D, but archery in Pathfinder is the best way to deal damage. The reason being is clustered shots + being able to full attack much more often than melee characters (since in PF its hard to get pounce for most classes).
Yeah, he was referring to 3.5, but the bow, 19-20/x3 isnt op? That i can add my str to for every shot- not just +1 or +2 str but whatever it is? Another thing is that there arent really magic items to buy in the wheel of time world.
Yeah, he was referring to 3.5, but the bow, 19-20/x3 isnt op? That i can add my str to for every shot- not just +1 or +2 str but whatever it is? Another thing is that there arent really magic items to buy in the wheel of time world.
Which is a good thing that your GM gave you an equivalent to a magic item.
Also not really sure how the adaptive bow enhancement is broke either. http://paizo.com/prd/ultimateEquipment/magicArmsAndArmor/weaponSpecialAbili ties.html ~
This ability can only be placed on composite bows. An adaptive bow responds to the strength of its wielder, acting as a bow with a strength rating equal to its wielder's Strength bonus. The wielder can fire it with a lesser Strength bonus (and cause less damage) if desired.
In total it is effectively +5000 gold pieces in extra cost if done normally, which is easily affordable using the character wealth by level (and WBL and CR assumes you have reasonable gear for your level) The fact that the GM is giving you mechanically appropriate gear for your level isn't broken at all.
Another thing is that there arent really magic items to buy in the wheel of time world.
No but if its anything like the book series by the time you reach 10th level you cant walk 5 feet without bumping into some ancient relic of magical power.
Fair enough :) cept i got it at level 1 ;)
Good point about one power items. We shall see. We are just getting to a point in the story where things are going to escalate quickly. Having a ton of fun!
Can someone explain how a crit works with many shot please? I scored a crit with it last night and i remembered someone saying that the crit only applies to one arrow of manyshot, but the dm said that was silly and that since it is one attack, the crit applies to both. Needless to say, i dealt crazy damage in one round because of that crit
1st level Pathfinder characters into archery as primary combat mode usually pick up a composite bow rated to their strength before they reach 1st level, even if they may not have it in their very first game when they are just starting off "fresh and green" (and poor). Adjusting to your STR isn't relevant until you start changing your STR, so gaining that feature at 1st level isn't particularly relevant. (composite bows for very high STR ratings are more expensive, but most archers won't have more than 14 STR at 1st level, because they want to max out DEX and having a few points in other stats is usually nice too)
I'm not sure your GM's hang up on "silly", all these mechanics are abstractions meant for game balance as much as anything else, because in the real world there is simply superior options but it's more cinematic to have a diversity of options in an RPG game. A manyshot attack that crits still does more damage than a normal attack that crits, exactly increased by the same 'one arrow' amount of non-crit many shot. Anyhow, it's his game so his houserules.
I am going to guess that around level 7-8 your DM will sing a different tune when it comes to Archery. It was about that time that the Archer in the game that I am DM for took off and never stopped being at the top (BY A LONG MARGIN) of the DPS charts in my group. We are playing Kingmaker so the PCs are fairly well known, so it doesn't break the immersion too much that the Baddies know what is comming for them and take precautions to "fickle winds", "windwall" or other Archer nerfs or else they will be a pin-cushion in one round. Even back then it was common for him to eclipse the 100+ hp mark in one round if the target was one of his favored enemies (he is a ranger). Now at level 14 he will occasionally top 200 HP in a round. Bad guys practically explode. Lets just say that MAX HP and lots of Buffs (if I can apply them logically) are used liberally (along with "advanced template". If your DM thinks Pathfinder archers are underpowered he is in for a rude awakening in a few levels.
Well yeah, the awakening happened last night. Hit with all three strikes, 38 + 16 + 11 damage at level 6. Not even with my damage bonuses for favored enemy- which is different in the wheel of time adaptation. I cant wait to take imp crit, and maybe combat reflexes. I am pretty "squishy" though, with only a 10 in my con.
here is the conversion, it is pretty well done
http://www.jessesdnd.com/sites/default/files/WoTPathfinder.pdf
Well if he allows improved crit to work with his special bow he deserves all that is coming. Bracers of falcons aim don't even allow that stacking.
I should maybe put mine somewhere else. The archer thing I agree with, they are already op. But having character rarely use all there attacks seems unfair. Of course I'm not a killer dm. Our group talked about this and just changed it a bit. It's a single attack but you get all your bonus's doubled as well. We also have our old rule of anything under a 5 always misses and of course a 20 always hits.
But I was just wanting to hear the official rule since like I said one of the modules had a couple of areas where monsters still got more attacks and using vital strike. So thanks, know it was a misprint and I apparently I'm not the only one confused about it. And I agree, truly it's not useless in it's original way too. It would just not be used that much in our party.
So it seems like since i took bullseye and it now cant work as i thought, taking vital strike might be nice as an alternative to use with that. I think having a single attack in my repertoire could be useful- dang, just realized bullseye makes you give up your move action, the only thing that would make VS better maybe. Im going to look into it i guess. Unless he lets me retrain bullseye, which he doesnt usually do.
...
Ok, said i could. From this point on, what is best with rapid/many. I got a few suggestions before, i need to look them up. Point blank mastery? And the one that threatens? Are there any feats involving increasing the five foot step one can make with a full round attack? That might be useful, to step ten feet and unleash hell. Thoughts?
Best option for moving more than 5' Step and Full Attacking with a Bow is riding any sort of mount. Taking Mounted Combat can protect your mount from attacks if you have a good Ride check (extra necessary if you have a weak purchased horse), and it is the pre-req for a Feat which reduces the penalties on attacks for Full Attacking while the mount is moving - although I believe the mount can move up to one standard Move action without any penalties, way more than a 5' step. I think there's some Feat which also lets your mount use your Saving Throws, although that MAY be a Class Ability (?). You can also use something like a Flying Carpet for similar effect... It's plausible that carpets you are standing on do not protect from your "Saving Throw Umbrella" vs. AoE effects as they are not 'carried', but honestly considering your GM's rulings, I doubt he will make that ruling. If you don't think it improves the game for him to be making rulings which make the game too easy for the PCs, you should tell him so.
Point Blank Mastery requires Weapon Specialization, thus 4th Level+ Fighter (or being a Zen Monk or Archer Fighter Archetype).
I can't remember the name, but there is some Feat that lets you threaten with your Bow itself, although Armor Spikes require no Feat investment and only cost 50gp, or maybe Unarmed Strike or Natural Weapons - the latter two are Finessable, and you could take Weapon Finesse to use your DEX for attack rolls, which is presumably higher than your STR. If you're taking Point Blank Mastery, these melee options are that much less necessary, although still useful when Grappled/Swallowed Whole/dealing with Wind Wall/etc.
You could pick up Vital Strike INSTEAD of Bullseye, since if your Full Attacks are getting increasingly deadly he should really start to be doing things which prevent Full Attacks (e.g. Slow/Staggered Conditions), and it's always useful on Surprise Rounds... You don't reallyl need to worry that much more about making your Full Attacks more deadly in terms of damage :-), so might as well look into dealing with situations where you can't act at full effectiveness, or picking up more unique abilities/niches. If you do consider one Vital Strike Feat, you would definitely want to consider how you will use Gravity Bow, which increases the size of your damage dice by one size... so 1d8->2d6, meaning you will get 2d6 bonus damage out of VS instead of 1d8.
You're probably best off just focusing on non-damage abilities though, at least your ranged full attack doesn't need help in the damage department by the sounds of it.
Thanks much Quandary :)
Like i said, we are in the wheel of time world, 300 years after the books end. I think i may be able to find something like a flying disc later on down the line, we shall see. I really like the mount idea and will try to steal a warhorse. As for a gravity bow, i dont think so, but he will have appropriate higher damage weapons down the line. I took dodge and i have great damage boosts vs two shadowspawn creatures, so i am considering some martial feats, like the whirlwind progression. But i only have 46 Hp at level 6, with no con mod, so melee is a risky proposition- and why do it when i can destroy things with my bow? I have an unidentified sweet looking shortsword, and a +2 keen longsword though, along with a 18 str, so not out of the question.
Sorry if this is threadromancy, but it was my thread and i wanted to talk aboit the same stuff so....please forgive me! I ended up going the rapid fire/deadly aim/manyshot route and took the good advice of keeping bull's eye shot and took vital strike to go with it. Hasnt been fecent so far.
Does manyshot work with vital strike? Im confused by its wording. Im level 7, +7 bab, with precise shot, rapid fire, manyshot, deadly aim, bull's eye strike and vital strike as my archery feats. Can i take my second iterative attack after vital strike? Whats the max shots/arrows i get with the rapid fire attack group of feats, and/or vital strike attack group? I think i have it all set, but cant shake the feeling im missing some DPR
No.
Vital Strike is a Standard Action. You only get one Standard in a round.
Manyshot is made as part of a full attack (you can only use it when using Rapid Shot, which is full attack only). Full attacks and Standard actions are incompatible.
Max attacks with Rapid/Manyshot at level 7: 3 attacks, 4 arrows.
Max attacks with Vital Strike at level 7: One attack. One arrow.
Max attacks at level 20 with Rapid/Manyshot: 5 attacks, 6 arrows.
Max attacks at level 20 with Vital Strike: One attack. One arrow.
It also doesn't benefit from Haste.
Vital Strike is poor all around, especially for Archers (who can full attack even more often than usual, since they can attack at great range).