As I have not seen any rule to the contrary you could use any shield that counts as a onehanded weapon (not a light weapon) twohanded.
When doin g this you should get -1/+3 from powerattack.
Not sure about the rest.
Several questions on wielding a shield as a primary weapon.
Can you use a shield as a two handed weapon?
If you have Imp Shield Bash do you still retain your AC?
Does a shield wielded in two hands get -1/+3 from power attack?
Does a shield wielded in two hands with shield spikes get the same answer from all of these questions?
EDIT: Heavy or tower shield.
First question - Personally I would say no, but as Umbranus said there's no specific rule that states you couldn't. If I were DM, I would treat it as an Improvised Weapon, because you're not using the shield at all in its intended manner. Also... a shield alone isn't a weapon; it can be used as a weapon to make an attack, but in of itself a shield is not a weapon. (i.e. Shield Bash. The shield is still attached to your arm, as such you're still using the shield for it's primary purpose.)
Second question - Again, if you're using a shield as a two handed weapon, then you're obviously not using it the way it was intended. I wouldn't give you a shield bonus at all, especially not if you're shield bashing.
Third/Fourth questions - See above.
Reference your edit - Rules as written specifically state you *cannot* shield bash with a tower shield, only light and heavy shields.
Opinion on the matter... this is absolute cheese. I honestly can't think of any reason to even do this. A normal shield bash is awesome enough if you have the right feats and a bashing enhancement. Basically you're swinging around a big, flat piece of metal/wood.
Well considering I wanted to do this for PFS I'm only worried about the RAW + FAQ.
Additionally have you ever seen Captain America? He two handed shield bashes rather often.
Were I judging a table of PFS and had someone sit down and try to play a two handed wielder of a shield, I would probably just walk away. There's only so much cheese I can bear. RAW it may well be allowed, and thus were I to judge, I would have to allow it. Nobody can force me to judge however.
This leads to a tangential question what are the best enhancements for a shield? As a cleric I assume I'm not proficient with shield spikes which would limit me to Bashing wouldn't it?
Read the rules for shield spikes and shield bashing. The short answer is, you're assumption is incorrect. If you're proficient with shield you can bash with them as a martial bludgeoning weapon. With shield spikes they just increase your damage die when bashing by 1 size category, it is still a shield bash.
The problem you run into is, in fact, that your cleric is not proficient with any martial weapons. Which means it cannot shield bash (with or without spikes) without taking the penalties for non-proficiency or obtaining proficieny with the shield as a martial weapon.
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There is absolutely no "cheese". This is a weird, and silly thing to try and put that ridiculous title upon. If you don't like it, that's odd, but fine. Don't try to accuse people of underhanded tactics, just because it rubs you the wrong way.
It is listed in the Weapon Section, as a Martial Weapon, in the Fighter Weapon Group(Close), and a valid option for the Weapon Focus feat, along with the ability to be enchanted with Weapon enchantments.
It is a weapon, and those who continue to treat it as a some sort of AC boosting weight on your arm, are ignoring real world uses of the shield, and more importantly, the rules.
The Shield is a weapon.
Shields are listed as Martial weapons in the weapons table, they are listed as 1h weapons in the weapons table. The Rules for 1h weapons say you may 2h a 1h weapon for 1.5 Str to damage, and the rules for shields NEVER say you can't do things like this. It doesn't seem like much cheese.
I think you are not familiar enough with the shield rules to understand the degree of cheese were' talking about here. With proper application of feats you can both get half priced bonuses on your 'weapon' and keep shield AC bonus while attacking. Normally you make the sacrifice of AC to wield two handed, and that is avoided here.
Here's an example of what you can pull off with this sort of cheese(PFS legal with lvl 11 wbl):
shieldcheese
Human (Keleshite) Fighter 11
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +15
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Defense
--------------------
AC 39, touch 17, flat-footed 36 (+13 armor, +8 shield, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 92 (11d10+22)
Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +9 (+3 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +23/+18/+13 (1d4+27/x2)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (bows +1, close +2)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 24, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +11; CMB +17; CMD 36
Feats Dodge, Furious Focus, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Weapon Focus (Shield, Heavy), Improved Shield Bash, Iron Will, Power Attack -3/+6, Shield Focus, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Shield, Heavy), Weapon Specialization (Shield, Heavy)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Observant (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics -1, Climb +16, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13, Knowledge (engineering) +9, Perception +15, Ride -1, Stealth -1, Survival +0 (+2 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +15
Languages Common, Kelish
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day); Other Gear +4 Full plate, +4 Heavy steel shield, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +3, Handy haversack (1 @ 13.6 lbs), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ring of protection +2, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), 680 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Shield Master No off-hand penalties for shield bashes, add a shield's enhancement bonus to attack rolls.
Shield Slam Shield Bash attack gives a free bull rush on a hit.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Weapon Training (Bows) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Close) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
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You are stuck with 1d8 damage if you get impact armor spikes on it, as opposed to the 2d6 or 1d12 you could get from a 2h weapon. Yeah, you get 1.5 str. and keep your shield bonus, great. You could get a +4 shield bonus from a feat while full attacking with a greatsword. It isn't cheese or OP, it is just a creative use of the rules.
There is absolutely no "cheese". This is a weird, and silly thing to try and put that ridiculous title upon. If you don't like it, that's odd, but fine. Don't try to accuse people of underhanded tactics, just because it rubs you the wrong way.
It is listed in the Weapon Section, as a Martial Weapon, in the Fighter Weapon Group(Close), and a valid option for the Weapon Focus feat, along with the ability to be enchanted with Weapon enchantments.
It is a weapon, and those who continue to treat it as a some sort of AC boosting weight on your arm, are ignoring real world uses of the shield, and more importantly, the rules.
The Shield is a weapon.
It's pretty clear historically that instances of shield being used as a primary weapon are nonexistent. Considering the primary cite in most of these threads for fighting with just a shield is the Captain America comic book, the case is pretty clear.
Yes, the rules do provide for it. Also, yes because the rules provide for it, PFS must allow it. However that in no way denies the cheese factor. It also doesn't mean I have to abide it in a home game, or even really tolerate players who use rules loopholes like this. I generally get to see who will be playing at a table of PFS before I run it, and if I know a player to be abusing the rules like this (legally), I will just bow out.
You are stuck with 1d8 damage if you get impact armor spikes on it, as opposed to the 2d6 or 1d12 you could get from a 2h weapon. Yeah, you get 1.5 str. and keep your shield bonus, great. You could get a +4 shield bonus from a feat while full attacking with a greatsword. It isn't cheese or OP, it is just a creative use of the rules.
At high level the damage dice from your weapon are a trivial factor. The ability to pull off a 39 AC with good damage is well over the top. Yes, you can try shield of swings, but of course you give up half your damage. Boy, that sure is a deal.
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There is actually a African fighting style, utilizing two shields, and a Highland fighting style that consists of a shield, and a dagger in the off-hand.
The shield is not some heavy decorative bracelet that happens to provide some protection.
The shield is a weapon.
Besides, with all the fantasy weapons, completely unusable in real life, like the Orc Double Axe, and Dire Flail, it's silly to give the shield such a hard time.
Martials can't have nice things.
You are stuck with 1d8 damage if you get impact armor spikes on it, as opposed to the 2d6 or 1d12 you could get from a 2h weapon. Yeah, you get 1.5 str. and keep your shield bonus, great. You could get a +4 shield bonus from a feat while full attacking with a greatsword. It isn't cheese or OP, it is just a creative use of the rules.At high level the damage dice from your weapon are a trivial factor. The ability to pull off a 39 AC with good damage is well over the top. Yes, you can try shield of swings, but of course you give up half your damage. Boy, that sure is a deal.
Damage dice might be a minor factor as you level, but critical range/multiplier gets more and more important, and the shield's stuck at 20/x2. That pulls down DPR and makes the critical feats non-starters.
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Even when the shield is not used as the primary weapon it is a very aggressively used item when employed correctly. Uppercut with the top edge, foot crush with the lower edge, take the shins, bash the knees, push the body, trap the opponent's weapon between him and your shield... All of these tactics are viable to use without a weapon in your main hand. If you get disarmed you often HAVE to employ the shield as a primary weapon while your other one is retrieved.
That's also not "obscure foreigner crap we ain't never heard of in my town". Those are your classic armored warrior tactics.
Maybe it is strange to you but it's actually not all that strange. Try to keep an open mind when playing a game of imagination and creative story-telling. Not everyone grew up like you did.
Seems the big problem is many think what they have seen in games/books/movies/anime is somehow an accurate representation of how shield had been used in real history. The truth is there is a great deal commonly left out.
On top of that though how things had been used in "the real world" matters very little in a game. If it did a shield would give far more AC then it does. More then most armors. A shield is easily the best defense short of full plate.
This being a fantasy game, the ability to have a PC somewhat replicate one's favorite games/books/movies/anime character should be encouraged, and not scoffed at, and mocked by a DM.
It's like a DM saying "This is a Tabletop RPG. What's your enjoyment got to do with it?", and that's just silly.
You misunderstood me BBT. I am not arguing against it at all. I find two-handing a shield perfectly fine RAW (and it flat out is period.) and flavor wise.
What I was getting at was the whole "it wasn't done in the real world!" thing holds no water for two reasons. Firstly because most of them don't know nearly as much as they think about what was done in reality and secondly because the real world maters little in a game. Hench my example of how woefully low shield AC is compared to how good of a defense it really was.
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Nice job addressing how a 2h shield wielder gets to have sword and board AC but with 2h weapon damage. Oh wait, nobody did address that. Oh nevermind.
Pathfinder goes to some fairly serious lengths to make sure you can have either high AC or high damage(like nerfing the hell out of the animated shield). This is a loophole which allows both. Yes, you give up critical utility. That's not really the end of the world. A sword and board one handed even with the best critical weapon will not catch up DPR wise with the advantages of a 2h weapon. The only real difference will be critical feat riders, and of course those are temperamental.
On top of the damage issue there is the fact that shield mastery gives you a weapon at 1/2 the cost.
Nope, people prefer to make their rather obtuse arguments about historical shield use rather than deal with the fact that this is a blatant rules loophole.
If I were DM, I would treat it as an Improvised Weapon, because you're not using the shield at all in its intended manner. Also... a shield alone isn't a weapon; it can be used as a weapon to make an attack, but in of itself a shield is not a weapon. (i.e. Shield Bash. The shield is still attached to your arm, as such you're still using the shield for it's primary purpose.)
A shield wasn't always strapped to the arm... and was very much a weapon in its own right.
Those crying "cheese" and "it wasn't done in real life" obviously haven't done any research on the topic in the Pathfinder rules or in real history.
The shield is a very viable main weapon, and has plenty of real life, historical references.
Not that real life or Earth history has ANYTHING to do with Pathfinder or Golarion.
I think the cheese factor comes in because it isn't someone's "norm", so they have to cry sour grapes. There are mechanics built into the game to be able to use a shield as a viable weapon. It's RAW legal.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's cheese.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's cheese.
I have explained pretty explicitly why it is cheese(even provided a buld). The rebuttals have amounted to "it was a real way of fighting" and "no, it's not cheese".
I'm rather less than impressed with the arguments. Best I saw was the point on crits, and while that is valid, I don't consider it a sufficient balance point. Not everyone builds a crit focused build.
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a [light|heavy] shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.
If I'm going to nitpick about RAW, I'm going to nitpick that the shield can be used as an off-hand weapon, which means it is only in one hand.
Therefore, if you are using it as a two-handed weapon, you are not bashing, and as bashing is the only way to attack with a shield as a weapon, it becomes an improvised weapon at that point.
Because that's all the explanation that's necessary. Your entire argument is "I can build something that can exploit it". If you want historical examples, here's your link: www.google.com. Obviously you have the internet. Use it.
I will allow that your build is cheese. I will even allow that 2-handing a shield to use rules and get bonuses like a 2-handed sword stinks of cheese.
Now prove that every person using a shield as a weapon will use your exploitive build, else relenquish that your argument, like everyone else's, is an opinion.
You can be less than impressed all you like, I have no obligation to impress you. Your singular build and arguments don't impress anyone else here, either, so before you go casting stones, make sure you aren't holding a glass shield.
Your build has 3 attacks per round at 1d4 + 27 each. Convince me this is cheese by proving I can't make a build with the same DPR at the same AC, and MAYBE you'll have a valid point.
Otherwise, your argument is just as one-sided as everyone else's. Offer up VALID data and maybe I'll bother putting forth effort to refute it. Until then, we see through the thinly veiled statistics stacking you're trying to pull off to make your stance the only one worthy of note.
I will allow that your build is cheese. I will even allow that 2-handing a shield to use rules and get bonuses like a 2-handed sword stinks of cheese.
And yet here we are in a thread title "two handed shield" where I pointed out it was cheese, and you argue with me. Go figure.
Your build has 3 attacks per round at 1d4 + 27 each. Convince me this is cheese by proving I can't make a build with the same DPR at the same AC, and MAYBE you'll have a valid point.
Did anyone ever teach you how to debate in a rational fashion? I proved my point on how to make a cheese build with a 2 handed shield. If you want to prove that it's nothing special, the burden is on you to provide a counter example. First off, that's not a reasonable expectation that I have to meet your demands. Secondly, it is extremely lazy. You want to make a compelling argument, get off your duff.
Seems to me that it's hard to call 1d4+27 cheese, even with a 39 AC... What would a two-handed fighter with a typical two-handed weapon be doing damage-wise at the same level with a build focused around that weapon?
I mean, a greatsword would be doing (math may be off by a few points) 2d6 + 24 (plus a higher crit threat range), and he'd only be trading 6 AC for it - 4 of which could be made up for with a Shield spell from a 1st-level wand.
Here's a fairly optimized normal 2h fighter (yes, I could have taken the archetype, but that gives up some mobility and some AC).
Note the damage is the same (minus the crits, though those are significant given the weapon choice). Yes, you can keep shield in that ioun stone which will get your AC up to 34 (suppose I should have arranged for UMD for that to really work, and bought a wand of it to be really fair). It should be noted, however, that AC values are not in any way equal. The last few points are worth more to you when in deep doo doo than the first few points. Heck, I also ended up with inferior saves (cheaper cloak) and no money left for a bow. Both builds have equivalent material DR penetration ability (+4 on the shield vs. +3 adamantine on the nodachi).
While I don't much care for the feel of this overall, the biggest beef is that you get to obtain a weapon where the plusses are half price. That really comes through in these contrasting builds. The shield basher just has nicer toys.
2 hand
Human (Keleshite) Fighter 11
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 30, touch 16, flat-footed 27 (+13 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 103 (11d10+33)
Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +8 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 Adamantine Nodachi +23/+18/+13 (1d10+27/15-20/x2)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +4, bows +3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +11; CMB +16 (+18 Sundering); CMD 34 (38 vs. Disarm, 40 vs. Sunder)
Feats Bleeding Critical, Critical Focus, Dodge, Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus (Nodachi), Improved Critical (Nodachi), Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Lunge, Power Attack -3/+6, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Nodachi), Weapon Specialization (Nodachi)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Observant (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +0, Climb +15, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Handle Animal +4, Intimidate +7, Perception +15, Ride +4, Stealth +0, Survival +14 (+16 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +15
Languages Common, Kelish
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day); Other Gear +4 Full plate, +3 Adamantine Nodachi, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of giant strength +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Gloves of dueling, Handy haversack (empty), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (vibrant purple prism, cracked), Ring of protection +1, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), 1790 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bleeding Critical Critical Hits deal 2d6 bleed damage.
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Ioun stone (vibrant purple prism, cracked) This stone bears an obvious crack, whether as a result of crafting, because the raw stone began cracked, or due to damage. It stores one spell level, as a ring of spell storing (stored spells must be placed by a spellcaster but can be used by anyone).
A Prism is usually faceted, with a long shape where top and bottom have the same number of sides. Normally the width and angle of all sides are uniform. Ioun stones orbit the head within d3 feet and have AC 24, hardness 5, and 10 Hp.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, imbue with spell ability, creator must be 12th level; Cost 1,000 gp
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a [light|heavy] shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.If I'm going to nitpick about RAW, I'm going to nitpick that the shield can be used as an off-hand weapon, which means it is only in one hand.
Therefore, if you are using it as a two-handed weapon, you are not bashing, and as bashing is the only way to attack with a shield as a weapon, it becomes an improvised weapon at that point.
They answered that issue in the FAQ. It is typically used as an off hand weapon, but can be used in the primary hand if the character wants.
That said, nothing about it being an off-hand weapon prevents the second hand from being used.
Off Hand does not incur any penalties in Pathfinder unless TWF. Technically it would reduce the Str damage to .5, but using both hands on a one handed weapon is a specific rule that overrides the general .5 str to the off hand rule.
Shield Bash: If I make a shield bash, does it always have to be an off-hand attack?
The text for a shield bash assumes you're making a bash as an off-hand attack, but you don't have to. You can, for example, just make a shield bash attack (at your normal, main-hand attack bonus) or shield bash with your main hand and attack with a sword in your off-hand.
The text still differentiates between one hand or the other hand.
It does not say you can use both.
"Shield bash" is a kind of attack. The kind of attack it describes is a one-handed attack.
You therefore cannot make a two-handed shield attack.
Mind, I'm just nitpicking the RAW too. We can read all kinds of stuff into the rules as written--and surreptitiously add our own interpretations claiming they are RAW--to make them sound as advantageous to whatever we want. People who want to read into the rules and say you can use it two handed can find a way. People who say it's impossible can also find a way.
The ultimate question--is which of the two groups is the PFS GM going to be in? That's all that matters.
The actual argument I would make with this question would be "use common sense," but that suggestion seldom works well here.
Did anyone ever teach you how to debate in a rational fashion? I proved my point on how to make a cheese build with a 2 handed shield. If you want to prove that it's nothing special, the burden is on you to provide a counter example. First off, that's not a reasonable expectation that I have to meet your demands. Secondly, it is extremely lazy. You want to make a compelling argument, get off your duff.
Yes, in fact someone did. Debate team. So, I'll further debate, and make it rational in order to satisfy your logic. Your stance is that this build is cheese. The majority accepted explanation of this term is to be able to skirt the rules and create something that cannot be normally obtained. I don't think anyone will argue that point.
In order to prove your example as cheese, you have to satisfy both your ability to create something that goes outside the norm, AND compare that against what can be normally obtained. You failed to do that in your first build example. I called you out on it. It's as simple as that.
Secondly, if you're going to say that you "are not impressed" with our arguments, be prepared for the introspective picking apart of your own arguments and ability to impress everyone else. That is how debating works. Point and counterpoint.
Thirdly, I'm not trying or even find it necessary to "get off my duff" or "make a compelling argument" with whatever YOUR definition of those terms are. Why?
The ruleset of the game, and historical examples that can be easily obtained by visiting the internet, already support my argument. I'm already familiar with them. Other posters above me further clarified for you, so I feel no need to repeat their efforts or their hyperlinks. I am already well aware that there are both historical, fantastical, and even in-game precedents surrounding use of a shield as a weapon. You're the one selling it as cheese, so you're the one with something to prove, not I. So you're the one with the obligation to prove your point, not I.
I gave you two points of merit, where fairly due. Just because I happen to agree with you in theory doesn't mean I can't disagree with you in application or logistical analysis. Often times I will agree with something personally, but have to disagree with it professionally.
Such is the nature of debate.
Yes, in fact someone did. Debate team. So, I'll further debate, and make it rational in order to satisfy your logic. Your stance is that this build is cheese. The majority accepted explanation of this term is to be able to skirt the rules and create something that cannot be normally obtained. I don't think anyone will argue that point.<more blather deleted>
You are pushing an argument from ignorance. You provide no evidence to the contrary of my claim (which is demonstrated by example), and yet you expect me to carry all the weight. Rubbish. I could not possibly satisfy the demands of your position because there is no way I can demonstrate every possible build. As they cannot all be demonstrated, no matter what I provide, there is always an argument to be made that a possibility exists that I missed something. Hence it is a rubbish argument and not possible to be rebutted. If debate team let you get away with taht sort of nonsense, I would be shocked.
I have since provided a normal 2 handed fighter for comparison, and it is quite clear that there are significant defensive advantages for the 2h shield build (and of course the 2 handed one is better due to crits, but base damage is close to the same).
The very notion that the "ruleset of the game and historical examples" prove your case is a vivid combination of blarney and straw man. If as you claim you are familiar with said examples, it should be a trivial matter for you to provide them. However you don't. This could be because:
A) You are lying
B) You are lazy
C) You are being obtuse.
Pick the one you like.
I honestly think that's giving them too much credit. I seriously think they just flat-out don't like it (which is fine) and then simply label it as sour grapes (or sour cheese, in this case) to back up their stance.
Clinging to the only valid point that drbuzzard has, the fact that a shield fighter can get his weapon for half cost compared to his peers' weapons, is a weak one. Transferring that logic means that anyone who sees an economic advantage to obtaining their items at half-cost is cheesy.
Sorry, Ranger, if you craft your bows and arrows you're cheesy. Hey, Wizard, if you craft your wands and pen your scrolls yourself, it's cheesy. Alchemist? Put down those glass bottles and go purchase your potions like everyone else. Gunslinger? Well, let's not even talk to you, since you get your weapon free and can craft your own ammo at half cost. You must reek of limburger.
Perhaps the monetary and budgetary savings is what SPAWNED the shield-as-a-weapon style in the first place. Let's say I come from a poor family. I have the skillset for a martial career, but I straight up can't afford both a weapon and a shield.
"Well, son, I want you to live, so I'm buying you the shield. But I want you to be able to win, so let's see if we can't turn the tables on all these naysayers by creating something new."