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Just what the title asked...
PFS has been doing organized play for years now. There are a lot of higher level characters out there now. Will we ever see PFS scenarios for level 12+ characters?
I feel slow progression was a cludge fix for rapidly aging-out characters and does not solve the problem... and it reveals the desire for a large enough section of the player base to keep going further with their characters, else it would not have even come to pass.
So, what are the odds? Do the powers that be seem interested (as far as anyone can tell, of course)? Does anyone have any inkling?
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I hope not. Id prefer to see what exists now (and thats on average 30 or so scenarios with a character in its life) be the way this living campaign goes. More scenarios is going to lead to dilution of quality in my view and the current word limit is going to severely restrict the mounds of text required for the higher power monsters/ characters. Not to mention higher level combat taking a lot longer to resolve.
I wont lie. I think the sweet spot of any D&D esque game is the single digit levels. After those things get cluttered, slow and degrade.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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The GenCon Specials for the last two years (counting this year) have included sub-tiers 12 and above. I believe this year's goes up to 16.
You can also play the PFRPG Module line for PFS (gaining 1 xp per module). So, for instance, your 13th level characters could play through Academy of Secrets, 14th level characters can go through Tomb of the Iron Medusa, 15th level characters can challenge themselves with The Moonscar, and 16th level characters can attempt The Witchwar Legacy.
If you do a search through the PFS boards you will find where people were able to plot out a way to get a PFS character to 20th level with the various options that are out there.
But it has been stated that writing *scenarios* for 13th+ level isn't going to happen (outside the GenCon Specials). That, of course, is subject to change, but they have not indicated any desire to actually do so.
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Just what the title asked...
PFS has been doing organized play for years now. There are a lot of higher level characters out there now. Will we ever see PFS scenarios for level 12+ characters?
I feel slow progression was a cludge fix for rapidly aging-out characters and does not solve the problem... and it reveals the desire for a large enough section of the player base to keep going further with their characters, else it would not have even come to pass.
So, what are the odds? Do the powers that be seem interested (as far as anyone can tell, of course)? Does anyone have any inkling?
We have been notified that the current Seeker arc, the Eyes of the Ten, is facing retirement, and that there will be a new Seeker arc released. No definite commitment dates for either of these, just a warning.
PFS, through sanctioned modules and adventure paths, offers a significant amount, now, of higher level play opportunities. Given how the new module format (The Dragon's Demand 64 page module) was sanctioned (3 sections, plus a campaign mode bonus chronicle), and that the next module on the schedule has a starting level of 11, I would say that higher level play is definitely available.
include that the last two Specials have had 12-13 and 14-15 sub-tiers....
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Or it could be the only reason a <redacted> is on the chronicle is because it's not an always available item. I don't expect to ever see level 15+ scenarios in PFS. At least not those designed to both a) fit in a 5 hour time slot and b) approximate 1/3 of a level worth of experience. Something's gotta give.
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The GenCon Specials for the last two years (counting this year) have included sub-tiers 12 and above. I believe this year's goes up to 16.
You can also play the PFRPG Module line for PFS (gaining 1 xp per module). So, for instance, your 13th level characters could play through Academy of Secrets, 14th level characters can go through Tomb of the Iron Medusa, 15th level characters can challenge themselves with The Moonscar, and 16th level characters can attempt The Witchwar Legacy.
If you do a search through the PFS boards you will find where people were able to plot out a way to get a PFS character to 20th level with the various options that are out there.
But it has been stated that writing *scenarios* for 13th+ level isn't going to happen (outside the GenCon Specials). That, of course, is subject to change, but they have not indicated any desire to actually do so.
Play the Modules they are a lot of fun and allow you to keep your PFS player going
That said I would love to see more 12-20th level Modules legal for PFS play but that may be out of Mike's hands
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As others have stated, I strongly advise playing the modules and/or adventure paths after getting to 12 through scenarios. They are all a lot of fun, can be played as multi-session events (allowing groups to really take their time with them), and get most any PFS character all the way to 19th level.
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If you want higher level content, then you need to purchase, run and report more 7-11 scenarios.
If you think there's some great demand for higher tier stuff, take Gen Con as an example. We are barely getting any 7-11 tables filled and the tier 1-5 and 3-7 stuff is or nearly is sold out.
This is not a this year Gen Con phenomenon either.
Three years ago at Paizo Con the entire convention was balanced across the board for both high and level play equally. The thought was that since it's Paizo Con (you know, where us fanboys go to play) that we'd completely fill those higher level tables. The exact opposite was true. I wound up cancelling one of my high-level slots and running another with four pregens and the one person that showed up.
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If you want higher level content, then you need to purchase, run and report more 7-11 scenarios.
If you think there's some great demand for higher tier stuff, take Gen Con as an example. We are barely getting any 7-11 tables filled and the tier 1-5 and 3-7 stuff is or nearly is sold out.
This is not a this year Gen Con phenomenon either.
Three years ago at Paizo Con the entire convention was balanced across the board for both high and level play equally. The thought was that since it's Paizo Con (you know, where us fanboys go to play) that we'd completely fill those higher level tables. The exact opposite was true. I wound up cancelling one of my high-level slots and running another with four pregens and the one person that showed up.
Although to confuse things I hear Siege of the Diamond City at PaizoCoOn was close to 50% of the tables being 12+
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Yeah, the Special tends to skew things since it's one of the only 12+ public options... modules and APs tend not to run at cons.
High-level play just takes too long if the GM and players don't all know each other and their capabilities. It doesn't work well in a 5-hour con slot (or the all-too-common 4 hour slot).
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Although to confuse things I hear Siege of the Diamond City at PaizoCon was close to 50% of the tables being 12+
Just a quick "off the top of my head" hypothesis...
Perhaps what's going on is that people who have the ability to play Tier 7-11 are the ones who are perfectly able to do so outside of a con setting.
If Kyle is correct beyond GenCon, and 7-11 doesn't get much play, then there's a larger problem here that the campaign needs to examine. Why are so many people leaving the campaign before Tier 7-11?
-Matt
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Although to confuse things I hear Siege of the Diamond City at PaizoCon was close to 50% of the tables being 12+If Kyle is correct beyond GenCon, and 7-11 doesn't get much play, then there's a larger problem here that the campaign needs to examine. Why are so many people leaving the campaign before Tier 7-11?
-Matt
My take (limited as it may be) is that player will make a new character when inspired by a new option in s book. If they like the character they will keep playing him or her to about level 5 at which time a new option has come out that they want to try our they got a cool race boon. So they need to stay over at level 1 I have 6 characters only 1 is above level 4 because I didn't fall in love with them like I thought I would maybe the new retraining will help that
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Two things make high level play in the GenCon specials different from what it would be in regular Society play (and therefore much easier to do in that environment).
1) High level players have mostly preformed groups. Often the same group who ran Eyes of the Ten together. They know what their tactics are going to be, they know what their preferred spells are, they aren't going to be constantly rethinking actions because of the previous player. If regular scenarios are written for high levels, you're going to have a lot more pickup groups (see: length of scenarios and playing a module or AP above)
2) The high level tables are almost exclusively populated by 4 and 5 star GMs. When the special is later run at local conventions the high tier GMs are usually the most experienced available.
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At a convention, I imagine it's partially because a fair number of the people who have high level characters are the same people who are volunteering as GMs.
At a local event, it's much easier to muster a table at lower levels, so I think a lot of people end up making a second, third, fourth, or whatever to be able to get into a game.
Thanks to a few people attending PaizoCon and now GenCon, we're just now working our way toward our first Eyes of the Ten table in my area. Not having attended either myself, and not being able to get the Dragon*Con this year, I'm hoping I can catch up in time to not get left out of it when it starts.
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At a convention, I imagine it's partially because a fair number of the people who have high level characters are the same people who are volunteering as GMs.
At a local event, it's much easier to muster a table at lower levels, so I think a lot of people end up making a second, third, fourth, or whatever to be able to get into a game.
Thanks to a few people attending PaizoCon and now GenCon, we're just now working our way toward our first Eyes of the Ten table in my area. Not having attended either myself, and not being able to get the Dragon*Con this year, I'm hoping I can catch up in time to not get left out of it when it starts.
That's the way I have had to play as of late. I run games at a store and am running mostly 1-5 level stuff. The only chance I get to play my upper level character is at con's and in a few private games
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My admittedly limited take from what I've seen is more 1-5/3-5s than anything else and it sort of 'piles' from there. You get more of them, then the next layer is 5-9 and the next layer is the 7-11s. Granted Jax is still a small lodge, only just now turning a year old.
I have a level 7 that has been sitting idle for 9 months now due to lack of local games being played in the 7-11 tier.
In that time, I've developed 4 characters into the 3-5 range.
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Multiple posts above seem to indicate that there is some kind of problem with high level play from a rules standpoint. I am somewhat skeptical. If people in organized play have been kept from playing at that level, I would expect delays for more obvious reasons than Paizo's rules being flawed. More likely people are not used to playing at that level. The structure of the system works against getting much experience at it. It is like any skill; if you don't do it, you suck at it.
The same critique applies to the assertion that the characters are naturally unbalanced and game-breaking. GMs cannot manage that which they have no experience managing. It isn't likely a case of Paizo's rules being broken and only a few people noticing it over the last decade plus.
Also, is a the module route really realistic? If people have to map out specific, ham-handed, contrived methods for reaching those levels, it is not really an allowance for higher level play. It is more like exploitation of the unintended consequences of sanctioning modules to increase sales (which I am not against BTW, just saying). If there were actual (intended) support for higher level characters then it would more likely take the form of actual scenarios in Society play.
Finally, we all accept that people don't want their characters lost to being killed; the in-chronicle availability of the resurrection-type spells and their repeated use is ample testament to that fact. The general avoidance of "killer GMs" is also testament to that. But, in the end, the loss of a character is the loss of a character, whatever the cause. Just because it's called "retirement" does not magically make the player like it.
I have been staving off playing my wizard for months now due to his approaching forced retirement. The list of others doing the same is not short. If you wonder why it is harder to get 7-11 tables together look no further than that fact added to the fact that the higher levels are achieved, not made. Anyone can form a level 1 table on a minute's notice... getting "near retirement" characters casually played when there is an on-rushing penalty for playing is quite a bit harder. Talk about punishing achievement...
Anyhow, just my two cents, your mileage may vary.
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No, just no. 3.x has been around for the last 13 years and PF is basically 3.75. The issues with high level play have been known about and discussed for years.
The particular break point is often level 15 with the opening up of Spell Perfection and powerful Divinations like Discern Location at which point the enemy stands next to no chance.
Your blunt reply seems to imply that I must be some sort of idiot for not noticing the OBVIOUS failings that you have wisely discerned "for 13 years". I'll forego a reply in kind for the stealth insult so long as you forego taking out your differences with 3.x on people who merely do not share your opinion.
I will merely say that enemies at higher levels should not be sitting around waiting to be divined and whacked OR they should be taking easily achieved precautions, OR they are so powerful that it does not matter.
Furthermore, those enemies tend to be a higher level than the players thereby having access to the same resources and more... so your argument about them standing no chance is actually self-contradictory on its very face.
All this simply means that scenarios of those levels must be written differently. Not more poorly, not more lengthily, not without balance. Just differently. So your objection concerning the capabilities of the characters only reinforces my point: experience with those levels is the key to running them well.
So... no. Just no. And thank you supporting my point, even if you didn't intend to. :)
I have played in and run campaigns well into the 20s. I haven't reached the same conclusions that you have.
I have had non-casters be effective as opposition at high level.
Scry and fry doesn't work as well in practice as it does in theory - if the enemies are played intelligently.
More likely people are not used to playing at that level. The structure of the system works against getting much experience at it. It is like any skill; if you don't do it, you suck at it.
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All this simply means that scenarios of those levels must be written differently. Not more poorly, not more lengthily, not without balance. Just differently. So your objection concerning the capabilities of the characters only reinforces my point: experience with those levels is the key to running them well.
I agree that most folks do not have much experience at high level play. There are a variety of reasons for that, which include but not limited to:
1) Expanding options for PCs - hard to account for in a once size fits all scenarios.2) Tricks to speed play not being used (like rolling all the dice at once).
3) Players not pre-calculating the variables of their attack (ex: axe +15 to hit, power attack +12, rage +18, power attack and rage +15)
4) Buffs and dispel magic - players not knowing what variables to remove if dispel removes buff xxxx -ie they lumped them all into one modifier rather than keeping a quick note for each and a total.
5) Players only starting to decide what their PC will do once it is their init (this is a little irritating at low level, but get's more frustrating at high as they have a larger variety of options to choose from - so it takes longer).
6) GMs not adequate prep work for the NPCs - that is, pre-calculating all of the variables and having the clearly indicated on their prep sheets.
As others have mentioned, at times it is rocket tag - a modified Storm Giant 16d6+29 damage with his standard attack (greater vital strike with power attack). With an average of 85 points per hit, even high level PCs will feel those hits.
So, GM to get more players up to high level - and get them to do the same - to have that pool wanting to play high level at the Cons and register the events not played at cons. To me, this is the only way that you will get PFS management to look at raising the retirement cap and drafting higher level play scenarios.
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I dont think you are an idiot but you do seem oblivious to 13 years of experience people have had playing this game.
Also most monsters dont have access to the means of protecting themselves from a high level pc group as most high level monsters dont have wide ranging spell access. The solar and planetar and some of the dragons are limited exceptions. Most demons and devils have only a limited range of spell likes.
Some casters can compete but they aee severely hampered by the rules for npc wealth. Non casters may as well not exist after about level 12 as actual opposition.
The enemy is public opinion and prejudice.
The enemy is a natural disaster (eruption, meteor shower, raging wildfires, etc.).The enemy is a acephalous cult of staggering numbers and range (rendering leaders, plans, and casualties meaningless in the conventional sense).
The enemy is equally numerous and is hiding amongst a population the players can't casually kill (perhaps by possessions, or infiltration).
The enemy is human corruption and the very system itself.
The enemy is nature itself (droughts, salinization, famine, plague, etc.)
The enemy is on the offense and after the players, knocking them back on their heels before they know they should start prepping for anything at all, leaving no time for ""plan, scry, and fry".
The enemy is the ignorance of the population itself and there is no time to just "school people".
The enemy wants and plans for you to defeat him; it will make him a martyr and/or more powerful.
The enemy is poverty itself and giving out fish only feeds a man for a day...
The enemy is the conflict between nations and a war so far-ranging that no mere man's presence on the field will change its course (no matter how personally powerful).
The enemy is an economic catastrophe so profound no one's personal wealth will alter things with mere generosity.
The enemy simply attacks in a place that will put the players at a distinct disadvantage no matter what preparations might be taken.
The enemy's defeat will only make things horribly worse.
The enemy is slander and disgrace.
The enemy is just as capable and insightful as any player characters, making it a true match of equals.
The enemy is one of happenstance; a deadly immediate crisis you wandered into while tackling another problem.
The enemy's defeat is not enough; the populace must learn the truth about the villain and they must be convinced to believe it.
The enemy is dispersed and after things the characters care about, everywhere at once.
The enemy is a curse laid on the entire population, making them all speak in different languages. Chaos ensues...
The characters have gone mad... the enemy they face is themselves.
The enemy is a political movement steering a nation down the road to disaster.
These and many, many more. The enemies are limitless. If you players are having to easy a time of it, you must broaden you definition of what a challenge is... it is not an entry in any bestiary. Those are mere building blocks.
And no, I have not been oblivious to the last 13 years. I have weighed the objections and found them wanting; ginned up frustrations without enough creative thinking behind solutions. I could say the same of every set going back to basic D+D in 1979, when I stared playing... this "problem" is neither new nor real.
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My personal preference at a big con is to play new characters in 1-2s and help new players learn the game.
At regional size cons I'm running 5 or more slots and filling in where ever needed when I'm not.
At my FLGS I play my two high level characters with my close friends to milk the most RP and fun out it.
We have a clear path through Modules and APs to get to nearly 20, and so I can't see Paizo changing the format.
If you run out of stuff to play with your seeker... start over, there is always another concept that needs playing, or GM more and spread the enjoyment of this great hobby.