I'm curious if anybody knows what the "best" armor is for a dexterity-built character. I've been looking around, and the best options I've seen are the mithral shirt, mithral kikko armor, and celestial armor.
Problem being, the first 2 are limited at a +6 armor bonus, and the third has a -2 ACP, pretty unpleasant for anybody who isn't a fighter and wants to use dex-based skills.
On top of that, as far as I can tell, there are no enchantments (in pathfinder at least) that reduce ACP or increase max dexterity bonus. I understand the need for a max dex bonus, but at the same time, I don't like wasting part of the advantage of high dex. Does anybody else know of something I havent noticed? An enchantment/armor/anything that allows you to take maximal advantage of your dex bonus?
I'll note I'm trying to avoid breaking the game or beeing "cheesy" (so no mithral celestial armor please).
Darkleaf Cloth is essentially mithral for leather/cloth type armors. If you somehow get more than a +10 modifier you can wear a haramaki or silken ceremonial armor and they have no max dex but give a +1.
Edit: I should probably add that the dex to AC isn't really wasted. With mithral or dark leaf light armor you get a maximum AC of +10, with medium its +11, and with heavy armor its +12. Because it only effects your armor's dexterity to AC all you have to care about is cost and Armor penalty.
I'd heard about darkleaf cloth, but all the armors it applies to (hide, leather, etc) still end up lower than the kikko armor (+1 dex bonus for -2 AC, or 0 dex bonus for -1 AC. Sad.). But the haramki/silken stuff could work. Maybe with a belt of dexterity +6? It would be a high level thing though. And I've have to put all my skill points in dex.
Edit to Mr Sin
Ya, I guess I'll try to minimize armor penalty for the moment. Maybe get a ring of protection or something.Kikko armor it is then! More expensive then the chain shirt, but that +1 ac could come in handy.
Still kinda frustrated with celestial armor though. How does it get such damned high dex bonus and (low) ACP? Guess it could work for dex based fighter since they get that ACP lowering.
Personally, I always thought the sweet spot was mithral breastplate. Put comfort quality on it or take armor expert and it reduces the ACP to zero so anyone can wear it without penalty, you get a +11 AC with 20 dexterity, full movement, and its not absurdly expensive.
Celestial plate is a unique magic item. I've always considered thought of it as that weird thing that just didn't fit myself, but I wouldn't complain about giving martials nice things.
I'll admit looking at the breatplate myself. Think i'll go for the kikko myself. My char has 20 dex at level 5, so I should be able to get him at 22 dex eventually to have the +11. Havent seen the "comfort quality" enhancement though. Is it a 3.5 thing?
Note: Anybody know how the haramaki works? Is it armor, or is it (like the armored kilt) and addition to armor?
Havent seen the "comfort quality" enhancement though. Is it a 3.5 thing?
Pathfinder Society Field Guide. Obscure source book more than anything.
Note: Anybody know how the haramaki works? Is it armor, or is it (like the armored kilt) and addition to armor?
Its armor. Its armor you can wear as a spell caster without penalty! You wear it like any other armor.
Wow. Must be pretty obscure, cause I cant even find it on the d20pfsrd
Wow. Must be pretty obscure, cause I cant even find it on the d20pfsrd
D20PFSRD lacks certain sourcebooks and materials and turns certain setting specific material into generic ones. There are other databases out there, and you can always nab the book. The book isn't actually that obscure, it used to be one that directly related to the organized play(though wasn't really that required if you ask me.)
Well, thanks for the help. I'm really showing how new I am to pathfinder today.
Another option I have seen used is to wear bracers of armor (+1 to +8 AC depending on the particular bracers, no max dex bonus) It won't work to well if you already have your arm slot filled though.
Another option I have seen used is to wear bracers of armor (+1 to +8 AC depending on the particular bracers, no max dex bonus) It won't work to well if you already have your arm slot filled though.
Bracers of armor are actually more expensive than a haramaki or ceremonial silken armor. They also don't stack with regular armor. Really they're only good for monks because monks can't fill the armor slot at all.
Also remember, if your Dex is that high, taking a penalty of 1 or 2 on Dex-based skills isn't going to kill you. Just make sure you're proficient with the armor so the ACP doesn't apply to attack rolls.
You don't take any penalty to dexterity rolls based on maximum dexterity.
This number is the maximum Dexterity bonus to Armor Class that this type of armor allows. Dexterity bonuses in excess of this number are reduced to this number for the purposes of determining the wearer's Armor Class. Heavier armors limit mobility, reducing the wearer's ability to dodge blows. This restriction doesn't affect any other Dexterity-related abilities.
You don't take any penalty to dexterity rolls based on maximum dexterity.
Think he was referring to ACP, which is applied to dexterity-based skill checks. His point was that if you have a super-high dex, you can afford a point or two of ACP on your dexterity rolls, because your super-high dex is going to make 1 or 2 points meaningless anyway. :)
My magus has a 20 dex at level 4 with no stat-booster yet, so I've been looking into my armor options as well. It's looking like the mithril breastplate is the best option for super-high dex until I can get the ubiquitous +3 celestial armor anyway.
And I haven't been able to find anything better than the celestial armor in overall effectiveness. There's celestial plate armor, but if you have a +8 dex bonus, you're gaining only +1 AC for a loss of 10 feet of movement, which seems like a huge disadvantage. Now if you only have a +6 dex bonus and don't plan on raising it any further, or already work under a -10 ft movement penalty, then celestial plate armor starts to look better...
You don't take any penalty to dexterity rolls based on maximum dexterity.Think he was referring to ACP, which is applied to dexterity-based skill checks. His point was that if you have a super-high dex, you can afford a point or two of ACP on your dexterity rolls, because your super-high dex is going to make 1 or 2 points meaningless anyway. :)
Oh! That makes sense. Posting in the AM hours makes everything in the world weird. Could've sworn I saw a thread on commoner bears when I woke up...
Celestial plate and celestial armor are in a weird place of their own. We need to perform some sort of science experiments of some sort to understand their magical properties and weaponize them.
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Well the +9 to your AC from the Celestia Armor is probably worth the small -2 Armor Check Penalty. -2 to your skills can be made up for very easily, assuming your in a situation where you can't just take it off.
With no other AC boosting if you max out the armour your base AC is 27. That's pretty solid for wearing light armor.
Wow. Must be pretty obscure, cause I cant even find it on the d20pfsrd
Kinda late, but the d20pfsrd site page for weapons and armor have an "Eastern Weapon" or "Eastern Armor" link at the top of the page. You can find the extra stuff (mostly from Ultimate Combat, but I think they moved a few items from APG to those pages too) there.
Mithral Kikko. ...on the cheap.
It is +6 Max DEX bonus and it doesn't SLOW you!
+2 Mithral Kikko is 8,030 gold +7AC. At 22 DEX, that's +7AC, +6DEX = +13AC
+1 Mithral Plate is 11,500 gold +10AC. At 22 DEX, that's +10AC, +3DEX = +13AC
Later in your career save up for Celestial:
22,500 gold!!! +9AC and +8 max DEX.
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Celestial Plate armor when it originally came out was created out of mithral.
Take a look at the Hell Knight Commander PrC. It reduces the ACP and increases the dex allowed on Hellknight Plate by 3 and that plate mind you can be created out of Mithral at a total of 6 dex cap. True it is not the much in comparison to other armors made of Mitral but it is a nice +15 ac excluding enchants.
Is there anything that can get a max dex of +7?
The alchemical item Armor Ointment will reduce your ACP by 1 for 8 hours at only 30 gp. Just grease up your Celestial Armor.
To a minimum of -1 ACP though.
Is there anything that can get a max dex of +7?
As Havoq mentioned, Celestial Armor, which is chainmail, has a +8 max dex bonus.
darkleaf studded leather, for 775 GP, provides +3 base AC with +7 Max Dex and no Check Penalty. the Mithril Kikko is better though.
if you have a Dex bonus of +9 or better, Silken Ceremonial Armor is pretty sweet, due to it's unlimited Dex cap. provides a bottomless max Dex, no check penalty, a weight of only 4 lbs, has all the benefits of clothing, no arcane failure, and it could look like any heavy cloth garment you choose.
if you have a Dex bonus of +9 or better, Silken Ceremonial Armor is pretty sweet, due to it's unlimited Dex cap. provides a bottomless max Dex, no check penalty, a weight of only 4 lbs, has all the benefits of clothing, no arcane failure, and it could look like any heavy cloth garment you choose.
Does it actually provide an armor bonus?
My magus is likely to get to +11 by level 20, not counting inherent bonuses. :)
if you have a Dex bonus of +9 or better, Silken Ceremonial Armor is pretty sweet, due to it's unlimited Dex cap. provides a bottomless max Dex, no check penalty, a weight of only 4 lbs, has all the benefits of clothing, no arcane failure, and it could look like any heavy cloth garment you choose.Does it actually provide an armor bonus?
My magus is likely to get to +11 by level 20, not counting inherent bonuses. :)
it does. base bonus of +1 before enhancements
30 for mundane
180 for masterwork
a +1 silken ceremonial robe provides an AC of +2
+2 provides +3.
it's cheaper and functions as a bracers of armor with a bonus +1 higher with the additional benefit of being able to take flat cost powers.
it caps at +6 to AC, but can also have +5 worth of special abilities and a bunch of flat cost powers.
Hmm. Silken ceremonial might work well. Dont know if I'll necessaraly get my dex bonus high enough though. I'll stick to kikko for the moment with silken in the back of my mind. I've got a +5 already (level 5), and even with the best belt, and only improving dex it would become about +10 maybe?
If I dont do the dex boost, just the belt:
Kikko: 5 (base) + 6(dex) +3 (best belt)=max 12
Silken: 1 (base) + 6(dex) +3 (best belt)= 10 (max infinity)
With more dex, it would be worth it. Otherwise, I tink I'd stick with the kikko armor, even if I cant take full advantage of my dex.
The fact is just that until really high levels, dex based characters just don't really get to have a better AC than heavy armored characters. Still, at least you're not a melee alchemist or a wildshaping druid. ;-)
What's wrong with those guys? My only beef with druids is they don't wear pants all day.
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Wow. Must be pretty obscure, cause I cant even find it on the d20pfsrdKinda late, but the d20pfsrd site page for weapons and armor have an "Eastern Weapon" or "Eastern Armor" link at the top of the page. You can find the extra stuff (mostly from Ultimate Combat, but I think they moved a few items from APG to those pages too) there.
The Haramaki is indeed the first thing listed on the Eastern Armor page.
To weirdo and protoman: It wasn't the eastern stuff I couldn't find, but the "comfort" armor enhancement. I eventually found the book it's in, but nonetheless it's a pretty useful enhancement that isnt noted down.
Another thing: Would "inherent bonus" (from one of the manuals, for example, or from a wish spell) stack with the "enhancement bonus" (from a belt). That would bring us to:
Silken: 1 (base) + 6(dex) +3 (best belt) + 2 (inherent)= 12 (max infinity)
Then we could equal Silken and kikko. An extra point in dex (for a +5 inherent bonus) would make it better (if enhancement and inherent stack)
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Catskin Leather
Aura strong transmutation; CL 13th Weight 15 lbs.; Price 18,910 gp
DESCRIPTION
Rather than the hide of a cat, this extremely supple suit of jet-black +1 shadow leather armor grants a portion of the grace and fortune of a feline. It has no armor check penalty or maximum Dexterity bonus. The wearer receives a +5 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks and takes only half normal damage from falling. When the wearer's hit points would be reduced to a negative amount equal to her Constitution score from an attack or spell, the armor falls to pieces and is destroyed, and the wearer takes only half damage from the attack or spell.
No ACP, No Max Dex, +2 AC for being leather, +1 for enhancement bonus, various other benefits.
That catskin leather looks sweet. A bit nasty, but useful.
You can have Celestial Armor or Celestial Plate Mail made out of Mithral, per the new rules about specific magic items in Ultimate Campaign. Page 176 I believe is where the paragraph is that explains that certain custom items are really just specific items in different forms.
Mithral Celestial Armor will have a max DEX of +10, and no ACP. Spell Failure is 5% (so don't roll a 1). Max AC from armor 19.
Mithral Celestial Plate Armor will have a max DEX of +8, no ACP, be treated as light for the purposes of movement (but still requires medium proficiency) and has Spell Failure 10%. Max AC from this armor 20.
Fighters with armor training or other classes with similar abilities can get even more out of this.
Actually, for the celestial armor, I've seen several arguments that this is NOT the case.But that'll depend on my DM. Marshmallow, You wouldn't happen to have a link to somewhere here this is explicited? I don't want to get into another argument whether or not it's possible, because there are too many of those types of threads lying around.
Edit: Would "mithril" even count as an "upgrade"? I thought it was a "base" for the armor that couldn't be modified?
Edit 2: I found the rule, but it only mentions magical abilities, so my first edit question still stands. Could use the "comfort" updrage though.
To weirdo and protoman: It wasn't the eastern stuff I couldn't find, but the "comfort" armor enhancement.
Woops my bad.
Catskin Leather
I love the flavor of this item, it would go quite nicely with my character's feel. Sadly it only because really viable once I'm super-high level to make use of that max dex bonus...but one day!
Actually, for the celestial armor, I've seen several arguments that this is NOT the case.But that'll depend on my DM. Marshmallow, You wouldn't happen to have a link to somewhere here this is explicited? I don't want to get into another argument whether or not it's possible, because there are too many of those types of threads lying around.
Edit: Would "mithril" even count as an "upgrade"? I thought it was a "base" for the armor that couldn't be modified?
Edit 2: I found the rule, but it only mentions magical abilities, so my first edit question still stands. Could use the "comfort" updrage though.
Those arguments were made invalid when Ultimate Campaign came out.
It flat out says that you can transpose a specific magic item into a different form, and Celestial Armor is not made from mithral in the first place. RAW it is legal, if the DM wants to say that the level of magic supersedes the weight of the mithral that's fine and within his power, but it falls into house rule territory.Remember that per RAW you still cannot upgrade specific magic items, and your chainmail will never go above +3 if the DM doesn't allow it to, nor can you add properties to the armor.
Thanks marshmallow. I might try to make myself some mithral celestial kikko armor then.
Upgrading celestial armor to mithral makes no sense to me. The description of celestial armor describes it as incredibly fine and light, so presumably it's not just a bunch of iron. It's hard to imagine making it mithral will have the same effect as making a simple iron chain shirt into mithral.
Doesn't say anywhere that its made of special iron, its a detail your adding in with your imagination. Imagine its magically lighter and it makes more sense. Regardless, not every GM lets it past them anyway because it can come off as extra cheesy.
Also, the catskin thing sounds cool, but it's basically twice as expensive as the equivalent bracers of armor +3. So you pay 9000 gold for the extra benefits.
Its also way cheaper to increase the enhancement level on the +1 leather than it is the bracers. 25k for +5 bracers(16k to enhance), 9k for +3 leather(8k to enhance). Almost completely made it up already. On the other hand a silken gown +2 cost 4k, and +4 silken gown is 16k, and you still kept the bracer slot open.
Upgrading celestial armor to mithral makes no sense to me. The description of celestial armor describes it as incredibly fine and light, so presumably it's not just a bunch of iron. It's hard to imagine making it mithral will have the same effect as making a simple iron chain shirt into mithral.
Also, the catskin thing sounds cool, but it's basically twice as expensive as the equivalent bracers of armor +3. So you pay 9000 gold for the extra benefits.
Celestial Armor is lighter for the same reason a Sunblade gets treated as a light weapon. Magic.
Honestly, for my PFS ninja, I'm thinking that once she gets to 25+ Dex she might be better off with a wand of Mage Armor. of course she'll be vulnerable to Dispel Magic, but up until she can afford Celestial armor she'll get a better AC.
But frankly, ac seems to be a mug's game for Dex-based characters; you're better off with something like Mirror Image.
Honestly, for my PFS ninja, I'm thinking that once she gets to 25+ Dex she might be better off with a wand of Mage Armor. of course she'll be vulnerable to Dispel Magic, but up until she can afford Celestial armor she'll get a better AC.
But frankly, ac seems to be a mug's game for Dex-based characters; you're better off with something like Mirror Image.
I agree, at higher levels things like miss chance become a much better defense.
But frankly, ac seems to be a mug's game for Dex-based characters; you're better off with something like Mirror Image.
While the value of Mirror Image goes without saying, what makes you think AC is less valuable for dex-based characters than other builds?