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So I'm joining a campaign around level 10, and thinking of building a Paladin. The group could use another frontliner as well as a moral compass. They have a Barbarian already, and I've played the tin-can type of Paladin before, so I'm thinking of something mobile and nimble for a change. How about something Dex-based?
I suppose Dervish Dance could work, but the damage potential would be rather limited. There's the Agile weapon enhancement now, and I'd have the Dex for TWF, so that's a possible solution: two +1 Agile gladii or kukris, weapon finesse, and Piranha Strike. I might take 2 Ranger levels first to get the first TWF for free and to stock up on some nature-oriented class skills (which the party also needs dearly).
The drawback on that would be that I'm highly dependent on those two weapons. I have Smite to get around some types of DR, but if I lose the weapons, my power drops steeply. Also, I can only use Divine Bond on one of the weapons.
An alternative would be to take a level of Monk instead of Ranger. I'd get IUAS and TWF out of the box, as well as some nice skills and a saves boost. As far as I can tell, all that works even if I wear light armor, so I could keep Wisdom low. The big advantage is that I can wear an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists for a mere 4000 gp under my shirt, so that's much cheaper and safer than two +1 Agile weapons. I can use permanent Magic Fang for a +1 enhancement bonus, and later Greater Magic Weapon for more. I get the full effect of Dex-to-damage, Piranha Strike, and Divine Bond on all attacks, and only lose one level of Paladin progression. Finally, fighting bare-knuckles just looks really badass. :) The big downside is that I never get ITWF, but perhaps that's worth it.
TL;DR: Is Monk 1/Paladin X with something like S 08 D 18 C 14 I 12 W 10 X 16 (starting stats Aasimar 20 pt), an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, Finesse, and Piranha Strike a valid build? I'm not going for an optimal build, but it should be able to hold its own.
I don't suppose there's a way to get Monk-style unarmored strikes and Flurry from an archetype of another class somewhere?
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Agile Elven Curve Blade is an option.
Agile only gives straight Dex to damage, it doesn't multiply by 1.5 for a two-handed weapon... but at least it's +2 damage over Dervish Dance. Then again, lose the weapon and I'm screwed. At least DD works with any scimitar.
Monk is a terrible choice for multiclassing with Paladin, as it will be very MAD.
Oracle is a better choice for multiclassing, but straight Paladin is better.
I'm only thinking of taking a single level of Monk, and wear light armor rather than rely on the Monk bonuses. I'd keep Wisdom down to a chilly 10. With only Dex and Cha to push, I'm not too worried about MAD.
And I have no idea how Oracle levels would help me with my design goals. Did you read my question at all...?
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Monk/Paladin could work and is cheaper then 2 +1 agile weapons, and has the same damage as most light weapons. The downside is you only get 2 attacks from flurry and no more. You don't get flurry if you wear armor, so you still need the feats, and paladins already have ridiculous saves. Still it could work fairly effectivly, though I suggest that if you get full HP for any levels, have as many of those be paladin as you can. Or you could go with an Agile Elven Curve Blade made of adamantine (for HP so it is harder to sunder) and try to get a caster to cast mending on it sometimes, and you can wind up doing 1d10+4+whatever else you want to add to this (Like Holy?). If you lose it you are still screwed though. Dervish Dance means no TWF or shield I believe, so it may be slightly sub-optimal as you can't 2h the scimitar or wield 2. If you want to stick to light armor, get elven chain or celestial armor. Ranger levels work if you want the other ranger things, but if you mainly want the feat then I recommend a level of fighter to get you a bonus feat and you don't have to dip as much.
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An unarmed badass Paladin could indeed be cool, but I don't quite see how that works with TWF. Flurry of Blows is basically TWF by another name; having both doesn't do you any good. Sadly, I don't think you're getting enough out of the monk level, though - yeah, you get Flurry, but if you're going to wear armor and have only 10 wis, that's all you're getting.
Have you considered taking a level of Dawnflower Dervish bard? You get free Dervish Dance which frees up a few feats, a lot of class skills (and some extra ranks to fill them out with), a sweet self-buff that works for 4 + Cha rounds/day, and last but not least a couple of useful spells (e.g., Expeditious Retreat, Liberating Command, Silent Image) plus access 1st level Bard wands and scrolls.
Alternately, one or two levels of Ranger gets you bonus skills, Favored Enemy, a bonus feat, and lets you keep full BAB. If you really want to do unarmed fighting, the Unarmed Fighter gets not only free UAS but a free style feat, which opens up some interesting options. (Paladin with Crane Style would probably be the most unkillable thing on the face of Golarion.)
What blacktroll was saying Oracle multclass better with paladian than monk or ranger.
Try this....
Human Palidain 9 Sorcer 1 Dragon Disple 10
with
Focused Study: All humans are skillful, but some, rather than being generalists, tend to specialize in a handful of skills. At 1st, 8th, and 16th level, such humans gain Skill Focus in a skill of their choice as a bonus feat. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait.
Heal, Perception, and any of your choice.
Traits
Blood of Dragons: Long ago, your ancestors' blood mixed with that of dragons. Choose one of the following: gain a +1 trait bonus on Perception checks, gain low-light vision, or gain a +2 trait bonus on saving throws against effects that cause sleep or paralysis.
Magical Knack: You were raised, either wholly or in part, by a magical creature, either after it found you abandoned in the woods or because your parents often left you in the care of a magical minion. This constant exposure to magic has made its mysteries easy for you to understand, even when you turn your mind to other devotions and tasks. Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn't raise your caster level above your current Hit Dice.
With Eldritch Heritage chain(Ork blood line)
Arcance Strike
Improved Familiar (Pseudodragon)
Craft Woundous item
Power Attack
Cleave
Combat Casting
Team work Outflank
Team Work Presisce Strike
Dragon Blood line Bonus feats Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, & Toughness
If you do my build with the orc blood line you get +16 to STR,
+6 CON,+2 INT, +4 Natural Armor by level 20.
That mean you can start the game with 14 STR and end the game with a
30 STR with no items.
Casting 4th level wizard spells and 2nd level paladin spells.
lay on hand 4+ CHA with 3 mercys
Smiteing 3 times per day
Divine bond 2 time per day for +2
And if team work feat are not you then Arcane strike to get +3 damage.
HP are realy good if max first level then take 1/2+1 for the rest you end up with 142+(CON Mod *20)
Starting with STR of 14 DEX of 14 and CHA of 16 at level 20 you can pick a club but naked and have...
BaB +17 STR+15 CHA+3 size-1 with smiting ,arcance strike, and divine bond.
Club+44/+39/+34+29 1d8+21x2+holy 2d6 and Bite +39 1d8+21. with 10ft reach.
AC of 20 base10+4natural armor+2DEX+3CHA-1 size
That but naked with a stick!!!!!
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@ AM13: If I can't get Flurry with armor, the whole thing becomes much less attractive. However, I couldn't find a passage to that effect in the PFSRD article on the Monk. Where is that information from?It is in the weapon and armor proficiency section of the core rule book. See
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a light or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows.
It is put in a weird place, so people tend to miss it.
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What blacktroll was saying Oracle multclass better with paladian than monk or ranger.
And what I was saying is that multiclassing with Oracle does absolutely nothing to help build a Dex-based Paladin.
For that matter, your Dragon Disciple Build (though interesting) also completely misses the point, being Strength-based and all.
@ AM13: Well, crap. Thanks for pointing that out. And yes, it's in a really strange place.
As far as I can tell, Gauntlets count as Unarmed Strikes. So in principle I could use an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists and IUAS to TWF with two gauntlets, which I could also enchant separately. My damage die dwindles down to 1d4 in that case, though, which is just really painful. :( I suppose it would still be worthwhile when TWFing with a Smite, but I'd want to be useful outside of those situations too.
Bracers of the Avenging Knight (Wrist Slot) (Simply Superior to Silver Smite Bracelet)
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th
Slot wrists; Price 11,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTION
These silver bracers are polished to a mirrored sheen, but otherwise shift their appearance to match whatever suit of armor they are worn with.
If the wearer has levels in a class that grants a smite ability (such as a paladin, or a cleric with the Destruction domain), her smite damage is treated as though she were a member of that class four levels higher. If the wearer is not a member of such a class, once per day she may make one smite attack, gaining a bonus on the attack roll equal to her Charisma bonus, and a +5 bonus to the damage roll on a hit.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Wondrous Item, bless weapon; Cost 5,750 gp
Robes of Arcane Heritage
Source: Advanced Player's Guide
Aura moderate necromancy; CL 9th
Slot body; Price 16,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTION
These elegant, dark purple and royal blue robes are usually decorated with gold stitching depicting a sorcerer bloodline, though some indicate a family tree. The stitching changes to match the sorcerer bloodline of the wearer. The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Wondrous Item, speak with dead, creator must be a sorcerer; Cost 8,000 gp
CHA +4 item 16k
STR +2, DEX+2, CON+2 item 16k
This load out 59k with is less than you 62k that get for level 10. Also you can craft most of the stuff for 1/2 gp. Use a stick as weapon if got DR magic arcance strike, if evil smite it, and you still have divien bond.
You will smite as level 9 paladian, you will have blood line power as level 9 sorcerer for dragon.
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Sorry about Flurry, the agile amulet+gauntlet seems kind of sub-optimal if you compare it to TWF with Rapier and Shortsword, though you do save money. You may want to make this a halfling paladin, as it gives the bonus to dexterity and charisma that you will want and some fun fluff. You could take the proficiency feat for sawtooth sabre and TWF with agile (still pricey though)for 1d8+1d8 and counts as light for the purposes of TWFing. If you go with the AMoF you may want to take natural weapon style ranger for better attacks.
2 levels of Dawnflower Dervish Bard, the rest as Oath of Vengeance Paladin of the Holy Light (this loses paladin spells, but bard spells kinda substitute -- you can still use wands of CLW). Has really good synergy.
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Frankly if you want damage as a Dex based paladin I agree that TWF is the way to go, as it benefits enormously from smite.
As I see it, you have a few other options which relate to the monk.
The first, and a personal favorite, is Champion of Irori, Guide linked.
The other is taking a master of many styles dip for snake style, then paladin with TWF feats into Duelist. Stat priority here is Dex>Con>Cha>Int>Wis>Str. Boosting Int helps your AC in light armor. This gives you decent TWF (granted, the true power of TWF w/kukri is the crit range, with smite damage being multiplied with crit it's pretty mighty) with piercing hands that also count for the duelist bonus damage ability.
A dawnflower dervish dip would save you two feats if you go the dervish dancer route, and a fairly handy Battle Dance bonus for those times when you need every bonus you can get.
TWF oath of vengeance paladins are absolutely terrifying when they activate smite. It is a very expensive route to take, but at level 10 WBL two agile weapons are actually not a huge expense.
Keep in mind that paladins get zero bonus feats and no weapon style support whatsoever so whatever you do, keep in mind that you don't have that many feats to go around. 'Simple' is a very attractive quality to a paladin build since it lets you put those feats to better use elsewhere.
Race: azata-blooded Aasimar (+2 Dex, +2 Cha)
20 Pt Buy:
STR 13 (3)*
DEX 16 (10)+2 = 18 +2 level bonuses = 20
CON 12 (2)**
INT 12 (2)
WIS 8 (-2)
CHA 14 (5)+2 = 16
* You need this for power attack. If you can get your DM to house-rule that Piranha Strike works with a dervish-danced scimitar, then drop this to whatever you need to avoid encumbrance.
**You'll have really good saves, high AC, and swift-action self-heals. You also mentioned the presence of a barbarian. You can afford a little lower HP.
Level 1 OoV Paladin of the Holy Light - Feat:Power attack (or Piranha Strike if DM allows it), Powers: Smite evil, Aura of Good, Detect evil
Level 2 DD bard - BFeat: Dervish Dancer, Powers: Battle dance, Bardic knowledge, Spells, Cantrips
Level 3 DD Bard - Versatile Performance (use dance, gives you Fly and Acrobatics)
Levels 4-10 Paladin: I think it's pretty clear what to take from this point forward, except that you should take Flagbearer at 5th and hold a flag with your free hand (Dervish Dance only requires that the hand not hold a weapon or a shield, not that it be unoccupied).
Get a set of Celestial armor, use the divine bond for your scimitar, and if you can get the bracers described in the above post by Tom S 820, a headband of Cha, a belt of Dex, or if your DM is a jerk and likes to make Paladins fall, get a Ioun Stone of Cha and a phylactery of faithfulness.
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@AM13: Nice idea with the Natural-Style Ranger, but as I understand it the permanent claws I can get with that style are natural weapons and thus unusable for TWF (right?). This makes them rather weak at mid-to-high levels.
Baha: That's certainly a nice build for a Dervish Dancer. Flagbearer sounds interesting, but its effect mostly overlaps with the Nimbus of Light. Why not go for Paladin spells, then? Hm, I guess I can't cast spells with a flag in hand? My party only has 1 other serious frontliner, so the effect of those AoO morale boosters isn't as big as it could be in other parties....
Kiinyan: Champion of Irori sounds perfect at first, but then it turns out most of the features are "Monky" and Wisdom-based. I can't afford Wisdom. :(
Kudaku: Yeah, it's pretty much a one-trick-pony build. But then, being mobile and having a high Dex also has a lot of nice effects that one might otherwise pay feats for... I'll have to pore over some builds to see if it's worthwhile.
Use of the Nimbus of Light uses a LoH, whereas Flagbearer is constant as long as you hold your flag. Nimbus also heals Ability damage at Paladin level 8, which is conveniently where you would be. The only difficulty would be you wouldn't be able to easily use LoH without dropping your flag or your Scimitar, but Weapon Cords would allow you to do so without great difficulty.
If you felt like keeping paladin spells, that would give you a good deal of flexibility, as you could focus your bard spells on utility, like Prestidigitation, read magic, detect magic, Liberating command, Timely inspiration, Grease, etc.
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Kiinyan: Champion of Irori sounds perfect at first, but then it turns out most of the features are "Monky" and Wisdom-based. I can't afford Wisdom. :(
I don't think it's that wisdom focused. The only things you get from wisdom are AC and Ki points, and the half level bonus ends up giving more ki. It does give: more smites, still flurry progression, and you aren't limited by the max Dex bonus of armor (which in the teens you can hit fairly easily on a Dex build). Really full smite and flurry progression is awesome (and ki for smites!!!!!)
A sample 20pt build using the Dex/cha aasimar
Str:8
Dex: 16+2
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 14+2
You can easily drop Int more and possibly Str to boost con and wisdom. Add in either snake style (advised for piranha strike) or crane style and you AC is solid. Belt increase to Dex, and headband to wis/cha would help even more.
One more thing to add. I don't have the imperial lords supplement downloaded yet, but what I've heard is worship of the sexuality imperial lord and a feat or two can get you charisma to AC that stacks with Dex when unarmored. If you can sweet talk your GM into allowing that with Irori worship and you're set.
@Catharsis
I think you'll have a hard time not making something akin to a one trick pony if you want to use paladin as your primary/only class. Paladins are a really great class, but they're not terribly flexible - you normally have to pick something you're really good at and stick with it.
What you could do is reverse the class options?
Paladin 2 / Dervish of Dawn bard X is a fairly strong build. Bard spells and skills give you tons of utility, battle dance gives you comparable +to hit and +damage to a full martial class while paladin gives you excellent saves, bab, smite evil and so on.
Since you're only going two levels into paladin you might consider picking up an archetype that gives you some benefits over the standard paladin. Divine Hunter loses heavy armor prof for Precise Shot, for instance.
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It technically doesn't say that you must use manufactured weapons to use TWF. It might be a bit of a cheese move to do this, but ask your GM and see if he allows it. Or if you want to do more damage, just take one level of monk and still pursue TWF. Your unarmed Strike does 1d6 damage regardless, so you don't need to worry about the no-flurry deal. It still gives you a bonus feat (like dodge?) and a bonus to saves. And stunning fist, not a high DC, but 1's happen.
There is an orc trait that gives you a bite attack, you could nab it with adopted and then ranger natural weapon style to qualify for multiattack.
You can't take racial traits with Adopted, only race traits. You don't get bigger teeth being raised by orcs.
Azata blooded aasimar Dervish of dawn bard 4/ divine hunter 6. Use you fcb x2 to grab +4 to hit dmg from inspire courage. Bow for range, scimitar for melee, dex/ cha ftw!
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There is an orc trait that gives you a bite attack, you could nab it with adopted and then ranger natural weapon style to qualify for multiattack.You can't take racial traits with Adopted, only race traits. You don't get bigger teeth being raised by orcs.
There is a Race Trait(not Racial Trait) called Tusked that gives you a Bite, and is a valid choice for the Adopted trait.
It is in the Orcs of Golarion book.
Human Paladin 10
14 Str, 16 Dex (+2 race), 12 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis, 18 Cha (+2 advancement)
1st- Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd- Power Attack
4th- +1 Cha
5th- Improved Bull Rush
7th- Shield Slam
8th- +1 Cha
9th- Improved Critical (Scimitar)
Weapons: Composite Longbow, +1 impact scimitar (18,315 gp)/+2 bashing mithral light quickdraw shield (10,559 gp). Some pearls of power (1st) (1,000 gp each; two or three is probably good) to cast bless weapon on the scimitar before/during most fights.
Next few levels:
11th- Shield Master
12th- +1 Cha
13th- Bashing Finish
Alternately, use one of the advancements on Dex and dip fighter for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
I did not see it mentioned her but might have missed it. For a dex based Paladin it might be worth giving the feat crusaders flurry a look. I have a dervish dance Paladin on paper somewhere using this feat. Not had a chance to play it yet though. Also takes lvl 5 min to get off the ground sadly.
Monk paladin mix, sounds like a champion of Irori to me, and they are not bad.
There is a 3.5 feat called 'Serenity' that keyed Paladin abilities of wisdom instead of charisma - normally I wouldn't recommend using 3.x material but in this case Serenity would make the paladin/monk multiclass significantly more palatable from a MAD perspective. Maybe ask your GM if there's any chance there?
Just of the top of my head so please do not flame at me if somthing is a bit off:
Tengus + Alternate Racial Claw Attack
Gives you 3 primery natural attacks. You can use this with weapons but all primery natural attacks become secundary. Tengu Claws are treated as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purpose of qualifying for other feats -> Crane Style + Crane Wing
Feats:
1st Level: Weapon Finesse
3rd Level: Dervish Dance
5th Level: Multiattack
7th Level: Piranha Strike
9th Level: ??
I call this poor mans TWF because you this will give you a hell lot of attacks with min. number of feats. The attacks are realy low damage but with smite you will deal rock solid damage.
Attacks @ 10th Level with Dex 20, Str 14: +15/+10 Scimitar, +13 Bite and +13 Claw
That is 4 attacks at 10th level and 5 attacks at 11th. With smite this will do serious damage.
Breiti
It technically doesn't say that you must use manufactured weapons to use TWF. It might be a bit of a cheese move to do this, but ask your GM and see if he allows it. Or if you want to do more damage, just take one level of monk and still pursue TWF. Your unarmed Strike does 1d6 damage regardless, so you don't need to worry about the no-flurry deal. It still gives you a bonus feat (like dodge?) and a bonus to saves. And stunning fist, not a high DC, but 1's happen.
Natural attacks are their own attack routine and are limited by their own write up, not the TWF write up.
Use of the Nimbus of Light uses a LoH, whereas Flagbearer is constant as long as you hold your flag. Nimbus also heals Ability damage at Paladin level 8, which is conveniently where you would be. The only difficulty would be you wouldn't be able to easily use LoH without dropping your flag or your Scimitar, but Weapon Cords would allow you to do so without great difficulty.
If you felt like keeping paladin spells, that would give you a good deal of flexibility, as you could focus your bard spells on utility, like Prestidigitation, read magic, detect magic, Liberating command, Timely inspiration, Grease, etc.
I should also further mention that the primary benefit of the WoHL is to get additional LoH uses as you level up.
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Halfling in Celestial Armor with Improved TWF.
20 pt. (17,14,12,12,12,07 array)
STR-12
DEX+19
CON:12
INT:12
WIS:07
CHA+16
--or--
STR- (15,14,14,14,12,07 array)
DEX+17 or 16
CON:
INT: (14,14,12 in STR,CON,INT; season to taste)
WIS:07
CHA+16 or 17
Feats:
1. TWF
3. EWP:Repeating Crossbow
5. Mounted Combat
7. I-TWF
9. Critical Focus
...Obviously this can be multiclassed at the expense of Pal-10th abilities; but any BAB0 class also forfeits Critical Focus at 9th in your to-go 10th-level character. If the party does not have any kind of skullduggery skills, and the GM's NPC are in love with "blockbuster" Evocation, make a rogue2/pala8 or rogu4/pala6 (aside from skills and some situational sneak, rogue is useful for stuffing a haversack full of WBL-granted goodies to UMD).
If you plan to go with a mounted paladin (especially if you are considering the above suggestion and play a halfling), then I suggest dipping into Sohei for 1~2 levels to get Mounted Skirkmisher / Trick Riding as bonus feats without meeting their prerequisites.
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Thanks for all the nice ideas!
In the meantime, I've settled on a somewhat different character concept for the campaign at hand: A Brawler 4/Monk 7. Between Close Combattant and Weapon Focus/Specialization, the Brawler levels give me a huge damage bonus, and I don't lose that many Monk features in the trade-off. The party is also in rather dire need of Wis-based skills, and I can still be the LG moral compass of the party without being a Paladin.
I'm still keeping the idea of a Dex-based fist-fighting Paladin in the back of my head, though — I just like the image. Maybe in another campaign further down the road...?
What would you think of a Brawler 4/Paladin X using IUAS and TWF? While mundane IUAS is much worse than a Monk's, the Brawler goodies make up for the drawbacks pretty nicely. It could probably match a single-classed heavy-weapon Paladin in damage on full rounds, easily keep up with sword & board Paladins, and go to town on Smites. And of course, it could just use regular armor and forget about Wisdom.