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The Rogue is considered by many one of the most underpowered classes, but thanks to ultimate combat, it’s possible to make a build that would make many damage dealing classes cry. With the combination of feats like sap adept/sap master, it’s possible to make insane amounts of non-lethal damage.
There are some variations to this build like using saps or the bludgeoning feat, in this one I will be using unarmed strikes to combo with some feats, and a dip in unarmed fighter mostly for the bonus feats:
unarmed fighter archetype 1, scout rogue archetype 19
1- Two-Weapon Fighting
1F-Improved Unarmed Strike
1F-Scorpion Style
1H-Enforcer
3R-Rogue Finesse
3- Sap Adept
5R-Weapon Training
5- Dazzling Display
7R-Offensive Defense
7- Sap Master
9R-Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
9- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
11R-Opportunist
11- Knockout Artist
13R-Crippling Strike
13- Gorgon's Fist
15- Medusa's Wrath
15R-Feat (Greater Two-Weapon Fighting)
17-
19-
Using these feats, the rogue can consistently put the flat-footed condition in his targets, combining enforcer/shatter defenses/scout abilities. With this, on level 20 he can constantly get an attack routine like this, considering 28 dex and +5 from amulet:
+28/+28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+17/+17 (+2 attacks from medusa’s wrath), and the damage would be 1d4+20d6+65, obtained from the combination of sap adept/sap master/knockout artist, averaging ~135 per hit, or ~1080 if all attacks hit. Ever wanted to beat a Tarrasque to unconsciousness with your bare hands? This rogue can do that.
Also, to make it even more insane, you can combine offensive defense rogue talent to get +20 dodge AC per turn, or crippling strike to do up to -16 str penalty to your target. Sure, this doesn’t make the class OP, but there’s no doubt that a rogue can be insane in combat with this build, while still maintaining his utility out of combat with his skills.
Might wanna snag Ninja Trick: Unarmed Combat Mastery at some point to up your damage a little bit.
Also, I don't think Scorpion Style is a valid Feat for an Unarmed Fighter to take. It says Style in it (like Archon Style does) but I'm fairly certain only the Style Feats listed on the Style page count for that.
Otherwise, it looks neat.
Might wanna snag Ninja Trick: Unarmed Combat Mastery at some point to up your damage a little bit.
Also, I don't think Scorpion Style is a valid Feat for an Unarmed Fighter to take. It says Style in it (like Archon Style does) but I'm fairly certain only the Style Feats listed on the Style page count for that.
Otherwise, it looks neat.
Good catch, Rynjin. We could change the first level for a Sohei Monk, the bonus feat list have scorpion style, he gains IUS, and as a bonus he can always act on surprise rounds.
Also, sohei monk would change the feat list a little because of bab and medusa's wrath would come online at level 17, like this:
feats: (H=human bonus, R=rogue talent, M=monk bonus)
1- Two-Weapon Fighting
1M-Improved Unarmed Strike
1M-Scorpion Style
1H-Enforcer
3R-Rogue Finesse
3- Sap Adept
5R-Weapon Training
5- Dazzling Display
7R-Offensive Defense
7- Sap Master
9R-Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
9- Knockout Artist
11R-Opportunist
11- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
13R-Crippling Strike
13- Gorgon's Fist
15-
17R-Feat (Greater Two-Weapon Fighting)
17- Medusa's Wrath
19-
Its also ok to go 20 levels in rogue, but withouth bonus feats the build will be a bit more stretched in this department.
Ninja trick seems cool if there's space, but there's little difference between 1d4 and 1d10 weapon damage when we compare to hundreds of damage from SA.
Why do you want scorpion style? It doesn't look very good. You slow an opponent if they fail an easy wisdom save?
Do you need it to qualify for something else?
EDIT: Nevermind I've just noticed you need it for Medusa's Wrath.
Why do you want scorpion style? It doesn't look very good. You slow an opponent if they fail an easy wisdom save?
Do you need it to qualify for something else?
EDIT: Nevermind I've just noticed you need it for Medusa's Wrath.
Right, the only reason to have scorpion style and gorgon's fist is to unlock medusa's wrath, which gives a big boost to your DPR at later levels, and you can even stack haste with it for a total of 3 extra attacks at full bab.
I believe Weapon Training does that.
This reminds me of when I wanted to just make Jason Statham as a Rogue.
Yup, weapon training from rogue talent give weapon focus as a bonus feat.
I finished building all his stats for level 10 in this thread, so I will post it here, with his stats for level 20 too:
Unarmed Rogue 2.0 (level 10, 20 pt buy)
Human Unarmed Fighter 1 / Scout Rogue 9
Str 10, Dex 24, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12
HP: 9d8+1d10 +10
AC: 24 (10 +6 armor +6 dex +2 deflect)
Touch: 18; FF: 18
Saves: Fortitude +9, Reflex +16, Will +9
BAB +7; CMB +7; CMD 24
Unarmed Strike +15/+15/+10 (1d3+2, 20/x2) [5d6+10 SA*]
*Against flat-footed opponents SA non-lethal damage will be 10d6+30, which will be constant thanks to the combination of scout archetype and enforcer/shatter defenses feats.
Feats: (H=human bonus, R=rogue talent, F=fighter bonus)
1- Two-Weapon Fighting
1F-Improved Unarmed Strike
1F-Dragon Style
1H-Enforcer
3R-Rogue Finesse
3- Sap Adept
5R-Weapon Training
5- Dazzling Display
7R-Offensive Defense
7- Sap Master
9R-Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
9- Knockout Artist
Traits:
Reactionary (+2 Init)
Eyes and Ears of The City (+1 Perception)
Skills (74 + 9 favored class bonus):
Perception +17 (10 ranks) [21 to find traps]
Disable Device +22 (10 ranks) [26 to disable traps]
Acrobatics +20 (10 ranks)
Stealth +20 (10 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +20 (10 ranks)
Bluff +14 (10 ranks)
Intimidate +14 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +14 (10 ranks)
Sense Motive +7 (1 rank)
Climb +4 (1 rank)
Swim +4 (1 rank)
Equipment: Belt of Dex +4, Headband of Wis +2, +2 Mithral Chain shirt, +2 Amulet of Mighty Fist, Cloak of Resistance +3, Ring of Protection +2, masterwork thieve tools
~65 average damage per hit with sneak attack, good skills for a rogue, average ac and saves, and can use offensive defense to get 10 dodge bonus per hit for up to 54 ac (or 34 if ruled that they dont stack, but still very good)
Unarmed Rogue (level 20, 20 pt buy)
Human Unarmed Fighter 1 / Scout Rogue 19
Str 10, Dex 32, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 24, Cha 18
HP: 19d8+1d10 +100
AC: 34 (10 +8 armor +11 dex +5 deflect)
Touch: 26; FF: 23
Saves: Fortitude +18, Reflex +27, Will +18
BAB +15; CMB +15; CMD +36
Unarmed Strike +30/+30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20 (+2 Medusa’s Wrath, +1 Haste) (1d3+5, 20/x2) [10d6+20 SA*]
*Against flat-footed opponents SA non-lethal damage will be 20d6+60, which will be constant thanks to the combination of scout archetype and enforcer/shatter defenses feats.
Feats: (H=human bonus, R=rogue talent, F=fighter bonus)
1- Two-Weapon Fighting
1F- Improved Unarmed Strike
1F- Dragon Style
1H- Enforcer
3R- Rogue Finesse
3- Sap Adept
5R- Weapon Training
5- Dazzling Display
7R- Offensive Defense
7- Sap Master
9R- Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
9- Knockout Artist
11R- Crippling Strike
11- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
13R- Opportunist
13- Scorpion Style
15- Gorgon’s Fist
15R- Feat (Medusa’s Wrath)
17- Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
17R- Improved Evasion
19-
19R-
Traits:
Reactionary (+2 Init)
Eyes and Ears of The City (+1 Perception)
Skills (154 + 19 favored class bonus):
Perception +31 (20 ranks) [40 to find traps]
Disable Device +36 (20 ranks) [45 to disable traps]
Acrobatics +34 (20 ranks)
Stealth +34 (20 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +34 (20 ranks)
Bluff +27 (20 ranks)
Intimidate +27 (20 ranks)
Use Magic Device +27 (20 ranks)
Sense Motive +21 (11 ranks)
Climb +4 (1 rank)
Swim +4 (1 rank)
Equipment: Belt of Physical Might +6 (Dex, Con), Headband of Mental Prowess +6 (Wis, Cha), Bracers of Armor +8, +5 Amulet of Mighty Fist, Cloak of Resistance +5, Ring of Protection +5, Boots of Speed, Manual of Quickness in Action +4, Tome of Understanding +4, masterwork thieve tools
I like to call this one "Flurry of SA". 9 attacks, 5 at full bab, and with an average of ~135 damage per hit against flat-footed, few things can stand his full attack. AC is average, but with 20 dodge bonus coming from offensive defense it can be raised up to -gasp- 214 AC(!) if all attacks hit (or 54 if ruled that they dont stack, which is quite understandable with such a broken number!)
Also, crippling strike can stack -2 str penalty on the target, up to -18 per round, considerably lowering his chances to hit you and other party members.
The build gets finished at level 17, so anything for feat/talent at 19 will do.
Very cool build, definitely can pull out some major damage. The only thing keeping me away from builds like this is that some creatures are immune to nonlethal damage (undead, constructs), but at least this build can still do decent lethal sneak attack damage.
Improved unarmed strike makes his unarmed attacks lethal damage.
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Don't forget "Brawling" keyword on your chain shirt. +2 to hit and damage with unarmed strikes, that stacks with Amulet of Mighty Fist. I'd switch the amulet of mighty fist to "Holy" too; it makes up for the inability to non-lethal undead, and gets you past demon's DR and such (in addition to increasing your damage even more vs them).
Yes Debbin, but still. A lot of feats go into unarmed only, especially when his sneak attacks are somewhat reliant on it (Enforcer).
Don't forget "Brawling" keyword on your chain shirt. +2 to hit and damage with unarmed strikes, that stacks with Amulet of Mighty Fist. I'd switch the amulet of mighty fist to "Holy" too; it makes up for the inability to non-lethal undead, and gets you past demon's DR and such (in addition to increasing your damage even more vs them).
Great advice, didnt knew about that brawling. instead of +2 armor you can get +1 brawling, which is +2 to hit and damage in exchange of 1 ac. I don't know if i would trade +2 to hit for holy, though.
This build does get hurt against foes immune to non-lethal damage, but thanks to it being unarmed, you can change for lethal at no penalty on to hit, and sneak attack will have the same damage as that of a common rogue. Still, its way lower than your huge bonuses on non-lethal, but you will still be able to contribute in combat.
You probably should focus on increasing your intimidate and to hit some. Ideally it sounds good that you can do all this, but in general this sort of theorycrafting rarely pans out.
In order to get the attack sequence you list at level 20 you you're dependent on a lot of things. First you have to be within 5 ft of something or you wont get a full attack, and even with the double of damage from Sap Master that wont amount to much for one attack. Then you have to hit successful (at which time they aren't flat-footed so your first attack on a full attack will never be sneak attack without using stealth or flanking). After you hit, you have to then successfully intimidate. If you don't they don't become shaken, in which case Medusa wrath falls out (no additional atatcks) and they wont be flat footed against your attacks.
For instance a Balor has a 20HD and a Wis modifier of 7 versus your Intimidate of 27. So you need to beat a 37 to affect the Balor, so you will fail 50% of the time. For a Pit Fiend you would need a 40. And these are just enemies that are the same CR as the party, they don't represent a special challenege, but you're not going to succeed a significant amount of the time. There are many places where you sequence can be interrupted.
Perhaps it will work out better than I expect.
You probably should focus on increasing your intimidate and to hit some. Ideally it sounds good that you can do all this, but in general this sort of theorycrafting rarely pans out.
In order to get the attack sequence you list at level 20 you you're dependent on a lot of things. First you have to be within 5 ft of something or you wont get a full attack, and even with the double of damage from Sap Master that wont amount to much for one attack. Then you have to hit successful (at which time they aren't flat-footed so your first attack on a full attack will never be sneak attack without using stealth or flanking). After you hit, you have to then successfully intimidate. If you don't they don't become shaken, in which case Medusa wrath falls out (no additional atatcks) and they wont be flat footed against your attacks.
For instance a Balor has a 20HD and a Wis modifier of 7 versus your Intimidate of 27. So you need to beat a 37 to affect the Balor, so you will fail 50% of the time. For a Pit Fiend you would need a 40. And these are just enemies that are the same CR as the party, they don't represent a special challenege, but you're not going to succeed a significant amount of the time. There are many places where you sequence can be interrupted.
Perhaps it will work out better than I expect.
Admitedly, his intimidate wont be too high at this level, but only crippling strike and feat advanced talents are critical to the build, so you could get skill mastery in place of opportunist or improved evasion, getting 100% chance against the balor. For other things like pit fiend, you could stack more bonuses to the skill, like inherent bonus to cha and skill focus (although theres only space for the feat at level 19), and probably some others that I dont know about.
Also, you won't get your first attack as SA if you start right next to the target withouth him being flat-footed/flanked. If you start 10 feet or more away from him, once you move scout ability will trigger and you will treat him as if he were flat-footed, giving you full SA damage as well as making him FF for the rest of your next turn if you intimidate him.
The main problem with the concept so far is that, unless you're a full-blown monk, you'll eventually be running into DR all the time.
...but use a cestus or 'nucks, and you Brawling armor (and other unarmed gimmicks) shut off.
According to faq, AoMF +3~5 can bypass some types of damage reduction, as you can see on this link.
Also, you won't get your first attack as SA if you start right next to the target withouth him being flat-footed/flanked. If you start 10 feet or more away from him, once you move scout ability will trigger and you will treat him as if he were flat-footed, giving you full SA damage as well as making him FF for the rest of your next turn if you intimidate him.
Right but if you move with scout and get the sneak attack from moving, you still will only get one attack. Which just isn't good for any class really, no matter how many d6's you're rolling. And you run into the problem of successfully getting to your opponent. High CR enemies are often large and will get an AoO against you, which smart GMs would use to trip you. You would fall prone and wouldn't be able to attack (fyi, a Balor's CMB is +33, he will succeed 85% of the time with this). Even then, you still have to intimidate him to make him flat-footed for your next turn, which still has an iffy chance of being successful.
It's nice to theoretically be able to put up these huge damage numbers, but I haven't seen any threads about how incredibly effective this build is and how it saves rogues from being worthless (the prevailing opinion on this site). Perhaps I'm wrong though.I would like to be, because I like the concept of the wrong, however anytime I've ever played one I always end up thinking that since my goal was damage I would've been much better off just playing anything else, except a monk.