First off, the point is supposed to be that other classes are comparable to what rogue can do, and thus are replacement options. They also tend to offer other things beyond being a rogue, like spells.
Well, I did forget the masterwork tools, so DD is only down by 6, a +15 is probably sufficient at 5th level.
It is not better DPR. 1d4 +3d6 +1 +3 bleed is 14 avg. damage and 3 bleed. That's with sneak attack. Without, it's an anemic 3.5 damage. Meanwhile, with battle dancer (which the bard chooses when it applies all on his own), my guy is doing 1d6 +12, an average of 15.5 damage. Your guy does have TWF, but he also has lower to hit (which will hurt DPR), and getting a full attack is hardly a guarantee, let alone a full attack SA.
Saves are marginally better, mostly due to choice of race.
HP is higher due solely to FC bonus, which I threw to bonus spells known. IF I had thrown it to hp, they'd be tied. I don't mind you tossing them to hp and all, but you don't seem to recognize the power of additional spells known as the tradeoff for it.
Skills themselves are a mixed bag; the bard has the same skill points effectively, thanks to versatile performance. The rogue overall does have more skills w/ higher bonuses.
In any case, on top of being competitive with rogue in all these areas... my bard also sports much better AC and spellcasting, which gives him functions the rogue simply doesn't have. Many spells outright enhance his skill monkey role, too. Charm is for when diplomacy fails or there is a lack of time. Invisibility is uber stealth. Sift and Open/Close let him investigate things from afar.
I really feel the need to note that this Bard wasn't even built to replace a rogue with much effort. His feats are geared...
I´m not saying that this rogue is better than this bard, i know the difference of "spells slots" could do. But the skills i use are the main skills for a rogue and you guys even put points in some of them...in your games you could not sense the difference and may don´t really need a rogue, but the rogue has their role.
I will make new builds lowering the skills for same points you guys posted here and show other things that the rogue could do.
1 Oracle (Seeker) / 9 Barbarian. Comparable to the rogue when finding and disabling traps and comes with much better combat ability. Yes, yes, a little cheesy, but I don't see why I would ever use a rogue (as a class) ever again to play a rogue if I can do things like this. If you ignore traps and want a skill monkey the Savage Skald is an even more embarrassing comparison for the rogue.
Male Half-Elf Barbarian 9 Oracle (Seeker) 1
N Medium Humanoid (elf, human)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision; Perception +21
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 20, touch 11, flat-footed 17 (+9 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 120 (9d12+1d8+49)
Fort +10, Ref +6 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +7; +2 vs. enchantments, +4 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities but must resist all spells, even allies'
Defensive Abilities improved uncanny dodge (lv >=13), trap sense; DR 2/—; Immune magic sleep, fatigue; Resist elven immunities
Weakness oracle's curses (lame)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee +2 Furious Nodachi +18/+13 (1d10+23/15-20/x2) and
Gore (Fiend Totem, Lesser) +8 (1d8+6/x2)
Special Attacks rage (28 rounds/day), rage powers (fiend totem, fiend totem, lesser, increase damage reduction, superstition +4)
Oracle (Seeker) Spells Known (CL 1):
1 (4/day) Comprehend Languages, Obscuring Mist, Cure Light Wounds
0 (at will) Read Magic, Detect Magic, Create Water, Light
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 24, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16
Base Atk +9; CMB +16; CMD 27
Feats Extra Rage, Improved Critical (Nodachi), Power Attack -3/+6, Skill Focus (Perception), Stealthy, Weapon Focus (Nodachi)
Traits Armor Expert, Finding Haleen (Barbarian)
Skills Acrobatics +7 (+11 jump), Bluff +6, Climb +11, Diplomacy +19, Disable Device +19, Disguise +6, Escape Artist +5, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (local) +11, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (planes) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +21 (+22 to locate traps), Ride +7, Sense Motive +10, Spellcraft +5, Stealth +17, Survival +4, Swim +11; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven
SQ elf blood, fast movement +10, mysteries (metal), revelations (dance of the blades), trapfinding +1
Other Gear +3 Mithral Breastplate, +2 Furious Nodachi, Belt of physical might (Str & Dex +2), Circlet of persuasion, Headband of mental prowess (Int & Cha +2) (Knowled, Ioun stone (pearly white spindle, cracked), Thieves' tools, masterwork, 244 PP
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Rage (28 rounds/day) (Ex) - 0/28
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Circlet of persuasion +3 competence bonus to CHA-based checks (skills already included).
Damage Reduction (2/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Dance of the Blades (Ex) +10 Speed while wielding a metal weapon.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elven and human for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Fiend Totem (Su) While raging, those striking you in melee take 1d6 damage.
Fiend Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain d8 gore attack while raging
Immunity to Fatigue You are immune to the fatigued condition.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=13) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 13+.
Increase Damage Reduction (Ex) While raging, your DR increases by 1.
Ioun stone (pearly white spindle, cracked) This stone bears an obvious crack, whether as a result of crafting, because the raw stone began cracked, or due to damage. It grants the bearer the ability to regenerate 1 point of damage per hour. This works like a ring of regeneration, it only cures damage taken while the character is using the stone.
A Spindle is usually faceted, but as a prism with 10 or more sides has a nearly round cross-section. Ioun stones orbit the head within d3 feet and have AC 24, hardness 5, and 10 Hp.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level; Cost 1,700 gp
Lame One of your legs is permanently wounded, reducing your base land speed by 10 feet if your base speed is 30 feet or more. If your base speed is less than 30 feet, your speed is reduced by 5 feet. Your speed is never reduced due to encumbrance. At 5th
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (28 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Superstition +4 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +1 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
I did a rogue replacement for PFS - sadly, has encountered only 2 traps over his career.
Archivist gnome bard with traits for disable device. Mostly caster oriented feats but can fight a bit with weapon finesse and agile weapon (keep the flunkies busy :) ). Oh, and so many knowledge skills, and a little diplomacy.
One nice combo is heroism to bump skill, aram zeys focus for bonuses and rerolls (vs mechanical), an probable path to take 10. No trapspotting sadly - I usually get the BDF to carry him on the shoulders so he can focus on searching.
Sorry, on a phone so just linking the page:
Archivist Gnome Bard
I did a rogue replacement for PFS - sadly, has encountered only 2 traps over his career.
In my PFS career I only ever ran into traps that did damage and you could heal from. Though two of them ran as part of an encounter.
I think it was Infernal Vault and Peril's of the Pirate's Pact. In one case if you fell into a trap an optional encounter with a swarm popped. In the other a mechanical buzzsaw trap that one faction needs to not set off is between you and a guy with a crossbow. I actually set it off with my animal companion because the GM ruled that jumping over the trap still set it off(what?) and that I couldn't retract my action.
Anyways, most of the traps I encountered were the kind you just healed from. There were more than just 2 though! Haunts were far more threatening because a few of those I ran into had that problem with insta-gibbing. I can just imagine them whispering "where is your rogue now?"
Edit:
Yeah, Det. Undead or Alignment to detect, channel or cure to damage? Paladins, Inquisitors and clerics having to beat initiative 10 to be effective?
Who the heck designed the things?
The fact that there is no reliable way to detect is what irks me most - unless you have a pally or inquisitor with good perception - which limits it to inquisitors, or clerics with wands of det. alignment, practically. It's a big eff u to most parties.
I guess a rogue is screwed - as a bard I could maybe take ghostvision glove and keep a scroll of cure crit on hand?
Str 14, Dex 26, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
HP: 10d8 +10
AC: 19 (10 +8 dex +1 armor)
Touch: 19; FF: 13
Saves: Fortitude +5, Reflex +16, Will +5
BAB +7; CMB +11 ; CMD 29
Haste +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed + (Purple Worm poison - contact For=DC26 1d3str, frequency 1/round 12 rounds, cure: 2 consecutive saves)
Rapid Shot +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
1st Attack +17 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
2nd Attack +12 - 1d8+ 5d6 + 18 + 5 bleed
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Eyes and Ears of the City +1 perception
Feats:Weapon Proficiense(Long Composite bow) Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus(Perception), Deadly Aim,
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Sniper´s Eye(allow sneak attack arget with concelment), Weapon Training, Follow Clues, Deadly Cocktail.
Skills (90 points):
Acrobatics +21 (10 ranks)
Diplomacy + 12 (10 ranks)
Climb + 19 (10 ranks)
Disable Device +23 (10 ranks)
Craft(alchemy) + 13 (10 ranks)
Perception/Track +23 (10 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +21 (10 ranks)
Stealth +21 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +12 (10 ranks)
Equipment: +2 Long composite bow (+2 str), Belt of +4 Dex, Boots of Speed, Sniper´s goggle, Bracers of he falcon´s aim, Padded Armomr, cloak of resistence +1.
Thieves’ tools masterwork, Climber’s kit.
This thread is a fun thread. I don't mind a good "in theory" thread every now and then, but unless you start to compare builds then it's all just navel-gazing.
Would a Ninja be considered a rogue? Or just a rogue? Does this change the calculus any?
Unarmed Rogue 2.0
Unarmed Fighter 1 / Scout Rogue 9
Str 10, Dex 24, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12
HP: 9d8+1d10 +10
AC: 24 (10 +6 armor +6 dex +2 deflect)
Touch: 18; FF: 18
Saves: Fortitude +9, Reflex +16, Will +9
BAB +7; CMB +7; CMD 24
Unarmed Strike +15/+15/+10 (1d3+2, 20/x2) [5d6+10 SA*]
*Against flat-footed opponents SA non-lethal damage will be 10d6+30, which will be constant thanks to the combination of scout archetype and enforcer/shatter defenses feats.
Feats: (H=human bonus, R=rogue talent, F=fighter bonus)
1- Two-Weapon Fighting
1F-Improved Unarmed Strike
1F-Dragon Style
1H-Enforcer
3R-Rogue Finesse
3- Sap Adept
5R-Weapon Training
5- Dazzling Display
7R-Offensive Defense
7- Sap Master
9R-Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
9- Knockout Artist
Traits:
Reactionary (+2 Init)
Eyes and Ears of The City (+1 Perception)
Skills (74 + 9 favored class bonus):
Perception +17 (10 ranks) [21 to find traps]
Disable Device +22 (10 ranks) [26 to disable traps]
Acrobatics +20 (10 ranks)
Stealth +20 (10 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +20 (10 ranks)
Bluff +14 (10 ranks)
Intimidate +14 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +14 (10 ranks)
Sense Motive +7 (1 rank)
Climb +4 (1 rank)
Swim +4 (1 rank)
Equipment: Belt of Dex +4, Headband of Wis +2, +2 Mithral Chain shirt, +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists, Cloak of Resist +3, Ring of Protect +2, masterwork thieve tools
This is pretty much like my previous build, but improved in numbers. His to hit is better, and his skills got improved, being even better at the rogue roles, like scouting. He will outdamage the party fighter as long as his target is flat-footed withouth suffering in skills, and he can even tank if the need arises, getting +10 dodge bonus to ac for every hit with offensive deffense, or +30 if all attacks land, bringing his ac up to 54 per round.
Unarmed Rogue 2.0
** spoiler omitted **This is pretty much like my previous build, but improved in numbers. His to hit is better, and his skills got improved, being even better at the rogue roles, like scouting. He will outdamage the party fighter as long as his target is flat-footed withouth suffering in skills, and he can even tank if the need arises, getting +10 dodge bonus to ac for every hit with offensive deffense, or +30 if all attacks land, bringing his ac up to 54 per round.
Wow! Sap Master and Offensive Defense is a great combination!
edit: level 20 you could reach +100 AC :P
Would a Ninja be considered a rogue? Or just a rogue? Does this change the calculus any?
Offically, Ninja is an Alternate Class of Rogue.
...which...makes it so that you can never take levels of the class that alternate class is based on.
So, a Ninja cannot dip into Rogue
A Samurai cannot dip into Cavalier
Personally, yeah, I consider the Ninja a "Alternate" Rogue build.
In my non-PFS games I have frequently seen Ninja-builds re-skinned into more setting-appropriate rogueish characters.
Example: A Varisian con-man, trickster and thief of questionable morality, played by one of my friends in our RotRL home game. We all refer to him off-table as a rogue, and in-character at times as "rogueish", even though his build is a ninja/alchemist multiclass.
Wow! Sap Master and Offensive Defense is a great combination!Unarmed Rogue 2.0
** spoiler omitted **This is pretty much like my previous build, but improved in numbers. His to hit is better, and his skills got improved, being even better at the rogue roles, like scouting. He will outdamage the party fighter as long as his target is flat-footed withouth suffering in skills, and he can even tank if the need arises, getting +10 dodge bonus to ac for every hit with offensive deffense, or +30 if all attacks land, bringing his ac up to 54 per round.
Also, a note on Offensive Defense not triggering on multiple attacks and who you get the Dodge Bonus against:
I still love the feat, but it would not shoot your AC into the stratosphere like you are mentioning
if this has been further clarified and I am wrong, please let me know as that would make me very happy
Unarmed Rogue 2.0
** spoiler omitted **This is pretty much like my previous build, but improved in numbers. His to hit is better, and his skills got improved, being even better at the rogue roles, like scouting. He will outdamage the party fighter as long as his target is flat-footed withouth suffering in skills, and he can even tank if the need arises, getting +10 dodge bonus to ac for every hit with offensive deffense, or +30 if all attacks land, bringing his ac up to 54 per round.
Very solid build, though I do wonder why you went with Dragon Style when you don't have any strength bonus to pump it up. Then again, even witbout the strength boost Dragon Style does a lot.
Yeah, Paizo has always overvalued trapfinding in the class design department while usually working to make it redundant in the AP writing department. Just look what ninja gets in trade for it and even less useful trap sense.
That does seem to be a bit of a problem in terms of game design. By all indications Paizo thinks Trapfinding is an incredibly valuable class feature but their own material renders it close to useless in a lot of games. Then again, I think there are a lot of problems with the current design of "roll perception, roll disable device, problem solved" traps. For me, it's more fun when the party has to think of sneaky ways to get past traps instead of just solving the issue with a d20 roll.
I do think a more realistic assessment of how useful Trapfinding is as a class feature would help the rogue out. Personally, I'd be inclined to ditch the metagame-y requirement of having Trapfinding to disable magical traps, and giving the rogue some ninja-esque boosts to compensate. I know when it came to looking at what any archetype gives up to get trapfinding, I felt like I was getting horribly robbed.
I think both the Urban Ranger and Archaeologist Bard mentioned earlier are fine substitutes for a Rogue.
Wow! Sap Master and Offensive Defense is a great combination!Unarmed Rogue 2.0
** spoiler omitted **This is pretty much like my previous build, but improved in numbers. His to hit is better, and his skills got improved, being even better at the rogue roles, like scouting. He will outdamage the party fighter as long as his target is flat-footed withouth suffering in skills, and he can even tank if the need arises, getting +10 dodge bonus to ac for every hit with offensive deffense, or +30 if all attacks land, bringing his ac up to 54 per round.
Also, a note on Offensive Defense not triggering on multiple attacks and who you get the Dodge Bonus against:
I still love the feat, but it would not shoot your AC into the stratosphere like you are mentioning
if this has been further clarified and I am wrong, please let me know as that would make me very happy
From that link, they said they havent reached a final decision yet, so I guess it could still be ruled either way. Still, even with that, instead of a insanely high ac you would get 34 against your target, which is quite respectable for level 10.
Edit: Unarmed Fighter level is mostly for the +1 bab and IUS, Dragon Style is just a bonus, as there arent many useful styles for this build until the higher levels. Charging through difficult terrain is always nice.
Agreed Razh, very cool build
Agreed. Razh's build is a sexy build.
Agreed. Razh's build is a sexy build.
I think the oracle was sexier. I mean, look at that charisma! Anyways, should I try to make a wizard with lots of skills for this, or is that playing with fire?
Yes but a 16 Cha is way out of my league :(
Agreed. Razh's build is a sexy build.I think the oracle was sexier. I mean, look at that charisma! Anyways, should I try to make a wizard with lots of skills for this, or is that playing with fire?
Make whatever you want..thist thread is for who want to escape the monologues of this thread = P
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That does seem to be a bit of a problem in terms of game design. By all indications Paizo thinks Trapfinding is an incredibly valuable class feature but their own material renders it close to useless in a lot of games. Then again, I think there are a lot of problems with the current design of "roll perception, roll disable device, problem solved" traps. For me, it's more fun when the party has to think of sneaky ways to get past traps instead of just solving the issue with a d20 roll.I do think a more realistic assessment of how useful Trapfinding is as a class feature would help the rogue out. Personally, I'd be inclined to ditch the metagame-y requirement of having Trapfinding to disable magical traps, and giving the rogue some ninja-esque boosts to compensate. I know when it came to looking at what any archetype gives up to get trapfinding, I felt like I was getting horribly robbed.
I don´t play paizo campaigns.. so in my table rogue works pretty well
Make whatever you want..thist thread is for who want to escape the monologues of this thread = PAgreed. Razh's build is a sexy build.I think the oracle was sexier. I mean, look at that charisma! Anyways, should I try to make a wizard with lots of skills for this, or is that playing with fire?
I kept up with that thread for the first 200 posts or so. 1100 posts later, it seems that some people just really love rogues... and others really don't.
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A class is like a football team, imagine fans of Barcelona and Manchester opening a thread to discuss how can they make Real Madrid better...You are starting a war.
Now that IS a good analogy. Well put :)
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Yeah, Paizo has always overvalued trapfinding in the class design department while usually working to make it redundant in the AP writing department. Just look what ninja gets in trade for it and even less useful trap sense.
So true.
The rogue’s niche is skill monkey, esp trapfinder lock picker and trap neutralizer. In a old school Gygaxian dungeon, full of deadly traps, even in corridors, and in odd places, you will need Trap Spotter , maxed out Perception & Disable device, trapfinding, and trap sense will be nice. Currently however, I haven’t seen any PF AP’s that are old school Gygaxian dungeons.
By this, the Dawnflower Dervish Bard build fails. No trapspotter and Perception & Disable device are not high enough.
The Human Archaeologist Bard dumps Wis and thus has a crud Perc. Clever Explorer almost makes up for this, but that’s easy to fix by dropping str a little and bring Wis back to 12 or so. It does have trap spotter & effectively trapfinding. Almost.
Roguey Druid fails completely.
Dwarven Witch-Hunter Inquisitor of Gorum: almost. Great skills. No trap spotter , so he’ll just get hit by a few traps when he’s not actively spotting . Using DM to dispel magic traps will work in modern PF AP’s, not in old school Gygaxian dungeons.
Goblin Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist: No Trap Spotter , Perception is poor ( but great Disable device, but it wont work on magic) , no trapfinding.
Now why do I concentrate on traps, etc? Well, frankly, I was playing in all those old school dungeons full of traps and I know just how necessary a ‘thief ‘was. In fact, my group and myself invented the “Thief” class. So, I know what you need there. And of course, once you are comparing DPR, many builds can be thrown out. If we stick to traps, not so much.
From what I can see, the only two classes that come close in this niche are the Trapper Ranger (still, no Trap spotter, which means you’re gonna die) or the Archaeologist Bard . Basically, the bard swaps out Sneak Attack for spells. But you can easily build one that can fills the trapfinder niche as they have Clever Explorer and can take Trap spotter.
So, it's not true there are lots of classes that can fill the rogues shoes. We have just one- the Archaeologist Bard . And, are spells or Sneak attack better? That's really a matter of personal choice. It's like comparing Divine casters, and picking oracle vs Cleric.
Now, since we don’t have a lot of old school Gygaxian dungeons, just about any class with decent skills and a pimped out Perception can just about do it- I am quite impressed by the Inquisitor and Ranger (no build yet) along those lines . Helped by a few spells, etc, really, you won’t miss the “Thief” that much.
So, it's not so much the class has been nerfed. It's that in modern AP's his niche is no longer so critical. Try Tomb of Horrors without one, tho.....
No trapspotter fails the test? Well there went several editions of rogues and a lot of PF rogues.
No trapspotter fails the test? Well there went several editions of rogues and a lot of PF rogues.
Without trap spotter you have four choices:
1.walk into traps that aren’t where you expect them. (really common in AD&D)
2.slow the game to a crawl by searching every step. And then of course you’ll forget at the wrong time.
3.have a lenient DM who lets you roll anyway.
4.have few traps or traps that don’t do much so you just take the hit, heal up and move on.
In earlier editions, #3 was a given as no-one wanted to put up with #2. The rules weren't as strict on this issue, either.
So what I'm gathering from that is that nobody can fill the rogue's niche, which is essentially traps. So if nobody plays a rogue, then the GM can make sure that the rogue's niche never comes up. This leads me to the conclusion that the rogue's niche isn't incredibly important in the broader context of the game.
It's kind of like the linguistics skill. If nobody can speak any language but common, the DM will probably make sure that the party rarely needs to speak any other language. If an adventure comes up where it's going to be an issue, they'll make sure to provide a way to make up for the PCs' lack of linguistics.
Meta-gaming for fun and profit!
well uh since the party does not have any means of healing themselves I guess I will just make sure none of the enemies they encounter will be able to do damage
I am the best GM ever
well uh since the party does not have any means of healing themselves I guess I will just make sure none of the enemies they encounter will be able to do damage
I am the best GM ever
The trick to beating the game is to throw all your heal sticks(and cleric) into the well! Of course! Wait, but if I pick up a potion does an ogre spawn so I have to use it?
Urban Ranger has the Trapfinding ability. So it's still on the table.
We have one in our party and feel no lack of critical functionality provided only by a Rogue.
Trapper rangers.So what I'm gathering from that is that nobody can fill the rogue's niche, which is essentially traps.
Seeker archetype. Someone with a dip into rogue. Archeologist bard.
This alias is one of my current characters. Seeker Oracle of Pharasma. He does all the non-combat rogue stuff, and replaces a rogue's mediocre DPR with full casting progression. He's mostly a healing/support caster, so the party loves him.
The only thing the rogue has over him is Evasion, so if he flubs a DD check, he's going to get hurt. Thankfully that hasn't happened yet.
Trapper rangers.So what I'm gathering from that is that nobody can fill the rogue's niche, which is essentially traps.
No trap spotter, thus walks into traps. But he does kinda have trapfinder, and is tougher, better BAB,. etc.
fun fact
not having trapfinding does not mean you cannot find traps
alternate fun fact
not having trap spotter does not mean you cannot spot traps
bonus fun fact
sushi makes me sleepy and would put me in a good mood if I had real feelings
also wooooo triple negatives
Urban Ranger has the Trapfinding ability. So it's still on the table.
We have one in our party and feel no lack of critical functionality provided only by a Rogue.
Still, No trap spotter, thus walks into traps. But he does kinda have trapfinder, and is tougher, better BAB,. etc.
No trap spotter, thus walks into traps.
I'm not sure if that should be a requirement. Besides, that talent is almost a feat tax. Archeaologist gets it though.
Roguey Druid fails completely.
On what basis?
fun fact
not having trapfinding does not mean you cannot find traps
Depends on your game. You can have plenty of traps without trapfinding. You just can't have magical traps that act as a wall or take damage and die or such. You can still have the trap that sets off the encounter, does cool things, is thematic, part of combat, etc.
Also, if it makes you sleepy, you should just give it all to me. I'll gladly take your sushi.
well uh since the party does not have any means of healing themselves I guess I will just make sure none of the enemies they encounter will be able to do damage
I am the best GM ever
Well, yeah. The ability to do Combat and the ability to disarm traps do seem to be about equivalent in importance in PF, it's true.
(NB: This is not actually true!)
2.slow the game to a crawl by searching every step. And then of course you’ll forget at the wrong time.
Complete BalderDash. This isn't 3.5. There are no search rules where you need to search every square. Just use your move action to actively look.
Roguey Druid fails completely.On what basis?
No trapspotter and thus walks into traps. No trapfinder thus can't handle magic traps.
Note that I am grading them vs old school Gygaxian dungeons full of deadly traps everywhere.
It's a nice scout build that can do a lot of stuff quite well. It just won't fill THOSE shoes.
Urban Ranger has the Trapfinding ability. So it's still on the table.
We have one in our party and feel no lack of critical functionality provided only by a Rogue.
Still, No trap spotter, thus walks into traps. But he does kinda have trapfinder, and is tougher, better BAB,. etc.
Not sure where you're getting this from. You don't need trap spotter to avoid walking into traps.
If you are adventuring you should be moving carefully and searching as you go. It's been a tradition since the 70s.
No trapspotter and thus walks into traps.Roguey Druid fails completely.On what basis?
1) Can move at 60 feet per round. Can use the move action to search everywhere within line of sight.
2) Picks up a belt of dwarven kind for stone cunning, which effectively gives you trapspotting in any stone dungeon.
No trapfinder thus can't handle magic traps.
Druids get dispel magic. You can also stone shape the dungeon over the traps or summon critters to set the trap off.
You make your urban ranger or trapper ranger a dwarf, then any trap in stonework has trap spotter.
Alternatively you make your trapper ranger (or urban) damned heartless and let his animal companion lead at a length and trigger the traps.
2.slow the game to a crawl by searching every step. And then of course you’ll forget at the wrong time.Complete BalderDash. This isn't 3.5. There are no search rules where you need to search every square. Just use your move action to actively look.
Read the trap spotter talent*. This indicates that you must search every round for traps unless you have that talent. Thus that mean the party walks at half speed, and you make a roll every round (or even less, just how close do you have to be?). Which is pretty much the defintion of "slow the game to a crawl". Now, if you have a lenient DM, as #3 sez, sure.
*Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap.
Yeah. There's more than one way to skin a cat. The rogue has access to one of those ways - but it isn't the only one and it isn't exclusive to the rogue.
If trap finding/disarming is the only thing holding a place for the rogue in a party then the answer is: "Yes. The Rogue can be Replaced."