Hello again,
Ran my first game of Pathfinder last night, using the Crypt of the Everflame module. It was lots of fun, if a bit overwhelming at times. I do have a few questions based on situations that occurred during the session.
1) The party's wizard was using Disrupt undead to
attack skeletons from range. The spell says to make a ranged touch attack. Are these sorts of spell attacks subject to the cover rule (+4 target AC if line of sight goes through obstacle or creature)?
2) Are they subject to the -4 attack roll penalty when firing at targets engaged in melee with an ally?
3) Does reloading a shortbow require an action?
4) Any tips on keeping track of which pawn/mini corresponds to which creature for purposes if tracking hp?
That's all I can think of right now. All in all things went smoothly. The PCs were very cautious and searched for traps at every opportunity (this served them well on one particular occasion which I won't go into in case anyone reading this plans on playing this module.) I prepared pretty thoroughly, reading the whole module
twice and even adding some of my own text. It appears to be a straightforward adventure to run.
I ordered the sequel, Masks of the Living God, and have read through half of it. I can tell this will be more challenging to GM, as it's far more open-ended. Anyone who has
run this module and would like to offer their thoughts and advice would be appreciated.
Thanks to everyone!
1.)Ranged Touch Attacks are subject to cover.
2.)There is the -4 penalty for shooting into melee with ANY ranged attack unless you have precise shot.
3.)Reloading bows take no action, which is why you can full attack with bows, but not (always) crossbows.
4.)Write name the minis and write down the mini names and keep track of the damage each one has accumulated.
I thought reloading a shortbow was a free action?
Zhayne wrote: I thought reloading a shortbow was a free action? It has to technically be "not an action" because if it were a free action you could only do it on your turn, meaning you couldn't make attacks of opportunity with a bow (see Snap Shot, et al.).
Free Actions in the SRD says nothing about on YOUR turn, just on A turn.
"Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn."
We use little numbered stickers on the minis.
You can't take actions outside of your turn, barring specific exceptions. For instance, Immediate Actions say you can take them outside of your turn, which is a pretty clear indication that ordinarily, one cannot take actions outside of his/her turn.
The first two questions are actually in debate about once every month or two. It depends on how you read the cover rules.
The cover rules and firing into melee rules both only apply to ranged weapon attacks.
Even the people who have been debating it in 3 other threads that I know of agree on that part.
The question is, not all ranged touch attacks are weapon attacks.
So... either you consider them weapons, which means they take the penalty for cover and firing into melee... but then you get to add damage from things like point blank shot, bard song, arcane strike, heroism, and such...
or
you do not consider them weapons, which means they don't need precise shot and can fire into melee with no penalty, but also do not get to add damage/attack from things like bardsong, point blank shot, heroism, etc.
It's your call and the RAW backs you either way, so long as you go full benefit/penalty either way.
I have played with a couple of PFS GMs though who have applied the penalties, but not let the point blank/inspire courage bonuses apply because it's "not a weapon".
1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Combat chapter says, "Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions). So, yes, a free action.
4) If you're talking about multiple copies of the same creature, I usually paint the bases different colors, so you can have the red orc, yellow orc, green orc, blue orc, and so on. If you're using the removable bases from a pawn set, you might want to just mark the pawns themselves, either on the face or highlight them along the edge.
Zhayne wrote: Free Actions in the SRD says nothing about on YOUR turn, just on A turn.
"Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn."
Action Types
prd wrote:
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
(bolding mine)
prd wrote:
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
Note the lack of mention of immediate actions. To me, this implies these are the actions on your own turn.
Thanks to all the replies.
I'll take my question about Masks of the Living God to the modules section, as it's off-topic here.
Thanks again!
Sean... since you said the first two are a yes.
Is that because it's a ray spell it takes the ranged weapon penalty?
What about say, Acid Splash, or Acid Arrow which are not rays, and don't qualify for the weapon like spell bonuses (point blank, WF, Wpn Spec., heroism, bardsong, etc.)
My bad. Read that wrong. I stand corrected, it's a free action. Though I still think you're ordinarily limited to taking free actions on your turn.
TGMaxMaxer makes a good point I never saw/though about Range Touch Attacks are not consider ranged weapons; unlike a Ray which falls to that consideration. Which makes perfect sense; because otherwise we would have a whole slew of spells that would be getting all the penalties of a range attack and none of the benefits of taking feats.
However, many in the effects of spells (wizard/sorcerer) indicate they are rays, bolts, arrows, missiles, etc. By that definition, they are weapons and fall into the range weapon category. I did not find any ranged touch spells in the sorc/wiz 0-6 that doesn't describe their effect.
Therefore, the penalty (-4)when firing ranged touch attck like acid splash (missile) and acid arrow (arrow) applies because of the fefect generated--a weapon-like attack. They benefit from weapon based feats;including precision damage and critical threats. However, only rays can be WF. Disrupt undead is a ray.
Cover is an addition to a targets AC, so technically its -4 to hit against a target with +4 to its AC. Target can also gain advantage to AC against ranged attacks by being prone.
There are a lot of abilities/SLAs/Su effects that are ranged touch, but not weapons.
My main reason for the question is for PFS play, since I have GMs there who apply the penalties for cover/melee combat penalties (which specify ranged weapon, not ranged attack) to ranged touch attacks, but argue that for Point Blank, Inspire Courage, and other such buffs that they don't get the damage bonuses because "they're not weapons".
You can't have it both ways, if both the penalty and the bonuses call out applying to weapons, not just attacks, then either they all work or none of them work.
Lol, penalties without benefits are the province of the Monk.
TGMaxMaxer wrote: There are a lot of abilities/SLAs/Su effects that are ranged touch, but not weapons. Can you give an example?
Cleric Domain Abilities: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Weather.
Wizard: Conjuration School power, Transmutation School power.
Sorcerer Bloodline powers(Aberrant, Celestial, Elemental,)
Spells: Acid Arrow, Acid Splash, Meteor Swarm.
There are a dozen just from a quick scan of the CRB.
TGMaxMaxer wrote: Cleric Domain Abilities: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Weather.
Wizard: Conjuration School power, Transmutation School power.
Sorcerer Bloodline powers(Aberrant, Celestial, Elemental,)
Spells: Acid Arrow, Acid Splash, Meteor Swarm.
There are a dozen just from a quick scan of the CRB.
Though the cleric powers use non weapon terms, they certainly describe the manifestation of physical objects; jolt, dart, icicle, bolt. However, I seriously wouldn't apply the -4 because dex tends to be a cleric's dump stat unlike wizards and sorcerers. Too may times I have seen my cleric PC's use these abilities and never hitting.
I'm not so sold on wizard and sorcerer spells, however.
Conjuration create a dart and transmutation uses a fist.
Acid Arrow creates an arrow
Acid Splash creates a missile
Meteor Swarm creates 4 spheres-which you can argue is not a weapon if you want but its main focus is exploding 6d6 not bowling over a target for mere 2d6 at 18th level.
other questionable spells are snowball and mud ball which create "balls"
Produce flame was clever enough to indicate that it works like a range weapon in its text.
This is all interpretation but it should follow the premise that shooting into melee is difficult. Hell, in 1e and 2e of D&D it was not even allowed! If you bother going into the mechanics of a touch ranged attack, and don't expect it to garner any negatives or positives for accuracy then why make them ranged touch attacks? Just make them a saving throw.
Touch attack are treated as if you where wield a weapon or armed and do not draw AOO. So A ranged one should be treated as if it was ranged weapon for attack reason. RAI is clear that ranged touch attacks are still effected by the normal rules of ranged combat. RAW on the other hand it does specify "Shoot or Thrown weapons in melee combat." May want to open a new threat and FAQ if Ranged touch attack not rays get these adjustments or are they consider to be weapons for these reason. As this thread questions had been answered by SKR and the spell in question was a ray spell.
@ Wiz...
wrote: Though the cleric powers use non weapon terms, they certainly describe the manifestation of physical objects; jolt, dart, icicle, bolt. However, I seriously wouldn't apply the -4 because dex tends to be a cleric's dump stat unlike wizards and sorcerers. Too may times I have seen my cleric PC's use these abilities and never hitting. The problem is, you need to have a blanket rule, and then make exceptions based on that, not just "this class normally dumps this stat so i won't apply it here, this class can afford to so it does".
I don't care which way it is, just need to see if there's a feat tax for a ton of wizard/sorc/caster abilities or not. As well... there are some critters who get a lot less problematic.
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