The old cleave still exists--it's called Cleaving Finish.
As far as I can tell, the best advantage to the PF Cleave is that you don't have to drop the target to get the extra attack.
Cleaving Finish you mean.
It is also now a standard action.
What are advantages/disadvantages of the different cleaves?
Cleave is a standard action so you can't really get iteratives with it, but its nice not to have to hope you drop someone and there just happens to be a nearby guy you get to hit too. Cleaving finish requires you to actually kill someone, but it won't eat into your action economy. Both can be circumstantial. Cleave in pathfinder also eats up 2 AC for no reason beyond hating your guts I guess?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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What are advantages/disadvantages of the different cleaves?Cleave is a standard action so you can't really get iteratives with it, but its nice not to have to hope you drop someone and there just happens to be a nearby guy you get to hit too. Cleaving finish requires you to actually kill someone, but it won't eat into your action economy. Both can be circumstantial. Cleave in pathfinder also eats up 2 AC for no reason beyond hating your guts I guess?
It's giving you a free attack that you ordinarily wouldn't get (either because you're under 6th level, or you used a move action this round).
No such thing as a free lunch. You gotta pay for that attack with some AC.
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The current cleave is useful for characters with medium BAB or to attack two targets with a standard action.
For characters with medium BAB cleave can stay useful up through level 15. This is because you get two attacks at your highest attack bonus on a standard action. At level 8 the medium BAB character can get two attacks on a single target (or one each on two targets) but at a -5 penalty on the second swing and at the cost of a full round action. Now granted the two targets have to be standing adjacent to each other for you to cleave, however since you won't get a third attack until level 15 it's better action economy. You might slow down your killing though since you aren't focusing fire, but if you are the clean up guy or simply trying to help out over the spread of the fight this can be very effective, especially if you are using a reach weapon as you have your move action afterwards to move out of the attack range of those you hit.
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It's a way to get multiple attacks in a round as early as Level 1 (Possible for Any Human or Any Fighter).
It's also possibly multiple attacks in a turn in which you must take a move action, Assuming Success, 2 Attacks as a Standard Action with normal Cleave, possibly more with Great Cleave.
Unlike 3.5 Cleave, it does not NEED a kill to activate and thus can be activated when the Player chooses - Increasing the utility of the feat from it's 3.5 counterpart.
Cleaving Finish, which requires Cleave, works like the original 3.5 Cleave. Improved Cleaving Finish, which requires Great Cleave, works like the original 3.5 Great Cleave.
There you go.
No such thing as a free lunch. You gotta pay for that attack with some AC.
It wasn't free. I used a feat and had prerequisites. It also doesn't give me iteratives, requires positioning(circumstantial), and can fall out of favor. It also doesn't do much if that attack that cleaves is from an attack that doesn't do much (TWF says hi!) does absolutely nothing if foes have a five foot square between them, or you just can't reach that foe, or if your just fighting one foe. Lots of limitations there.
I never said it was a 'free lunch'.
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No such thing as a free lunch. You gotta pay for that attack with some AC.It wasn't free. I used a feat and had prerequisites. It also doesn't give me iteratives, requires positioning(circumstantial), and can fall out of favor. It also doesn't do much if that attack that cleaves is from an attack that doesn't do much (TWF says hi!) does absolutely nothing if foes have a five foot square between them, or you just can't reach that foe, or if your just fighting one foe. Lots of limitations there.
I never said it was a 'free lunch'.
My comment may have come off as a bit flip, I apologize for that, it wasn't my intent.
You did pay a feat, but the feat gives you a really hefty ability for the levels at which you can take it, and the prerequisites aren't particularly onerous (classes that will want Cleave will probably also want Power Attack anyway).
So you pay for a bit of that heft with an AC penalty. That's a reason that doesn't involve hating your guts.
If you don't like Pathfinder, there's HUNDREDS of RPG sytems to play with.
Fixating on some problem of a 5-year old RPG system is not remotely productive.
Unless you don't think ANY of those RPG systems deals with that issue to your liking.
In which case your question should not be about Pathfinder, but why EVERY SINGLE RPG SYSTEM diverges from your taste.
Cleave is great because you don't have to kill the first target or even damage them, you can use CMBs on them if you want.
I happen to disagree with the idea that a spellcaster can do more damage for less effort. A melee combatant can do it all day long while a spellcaster has a finite resource. Its really apples and oranges anyhow.
- Gauss
So Looking at cleave, I got to wonder why it was changed and if I should allow players to have the old cleave instead.
What are advantages/disadvantages of the different cleaves?
Old Cleave: You get an extra attack if you drop a foe on any kind of attack.
New Cleave: You get an extra attack if you hit a foe on a standard action.
Old Cleave was useful now and then when a foe went down. New Cleave is useful before you get three or more attacks, whenever you have a standard action to attack with. Basically applies to a lot more situations. If you have foes next to one another, Cleave lets you almost double your number of attacks, where Old Cleave only lets you get an extra attack when one goes down. Any time you are fighting foes that take more than one hit to go down, new Cleave is better.
The real difference comes in with new Great Cleave, which is nearly as good as Whirlwind Attack but without all the awkward prerequisites.
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And if you have Great Cleave and Greater Cleaving Finish, you are basically playing Dynasty Warriors, Pathfinder Edition.
Why is it that bad guys never stand adjacent to each other when fighting a PC who, unbeknownst to them, has Cleave?
Even if no one has Cleave, I never see enemies that stay side by side. If anything it's more of a loose cluster with 5 or 10 feet between enemies. The only time I ever saw Cleave actually be useful was when a DM felt bad for a guy who took it and houseruled it so any target that was also adjacent to the player was eligible.
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Why is it that bad guys never stand adjacent to each other when fighting a PC who, unbeknownst to them, has Cleave?
Ask your GM? It comes up fairly regularly in the games I run and play in.
EDIT: With the caveat that once they start getting their butts cleaved, they do tend to disperse.
Cleave tends to shine in situations where there are a lot of minions trying to guard a BBEG.
For example, last weekend I saw a 9th level fighter who was trying to clear a path through a number of undead soldiers who were forming a 'wall' to guard their boss; with Cleave, Great Cleave, and Cleaving Finish, despite having to move to get into combat he was able to drop five of the minions on the first round and clear a path for the rest of the combatants. Had he had Improved Cleaving Finish he could have gotten two more.
As to comparison of martial combatants versus casters: It's true that a properly-built caster can pump out an immense amount of damage; however, once a caster has eaten up all his spells for the day, he's done, while the martial character doesn't (easily - fatigue but only in extreme circumstances) run out of sword swings.
I think part of the problem is that a martial is really going to shine in longer combats versus huge numbers of foes; you won't really see the balance point until the combat lasts long enough for the caster to start running low on spells.
Why is it that bad guys never stand adjacent to each other when fighting a PC who, unbeknownst to them, has Cleave?
Because they heard about area effect spells.
Usually martials aren't enlarged though. I remember in 3.5 I had a warmind with greater cleave. That was fun. Hard not to find someone with reach you could kill. I built him for making big attacks that the opponent wouldn't walk away from. Anytime there were minions bunched up any attack would set off a sweeping strike, and any deaths would proc a cleave. Not everyone can cast expansion to grow 2 sizes larger though... And my DM hated that character and won't let me play him again in his games.
I love potions of Enlarge. Standard action to perform what is normally a full-round action buff. If I get my surprise round (which I usually do) it is something I can do while waiting for the monster to come to us.
- Gauss