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Grand Lodge’s Observant only gives you ONE choice to gain a +1 to either Perception OR Sense Motive and makes one of them a class skill for you. While Osirian’s Tomb Raider gives you +1 Perception AND Dungeoneering and one of them becomes a class skill for you. Quadira’s Gold Finger Trait gives you a +1 to Disable Device AND Sleight of Hand and one of them becomes a class skill for you. While Taldor’s Fashionable Trait gives you a +1 to Bluff AND Diplomacy AND Sense Motive and one of them becomes a class skill for you.
So my question is. Why no love for the Grand Lodge? The main Lodge of the Decemvirate seems to be rather poor at rewarding its faction members, when in fact these are the most loyal of the Pathfinders and should get some extra something, something.
For your comparison, I copied these straight from the Guide to Society Organized Play.
Grand Lodge
Observant: Sometimes it helps to pay attention to your surroundings and the people you meet. Choose either Perception or Sense Motive. You gain a +1 trait bonus on all checks for the chosen skill, and the chosen skill becomes a class skill for you.
Osirian
Tomb Raider: You’ve spent most of your life exploring the ancient tombs and catacombs of Osirion. You gain a +1 bonus on Perception and Knowledge (dungeoneering) checks, and one of these skills (your choice) becomes a class skill for you.
Quadira
Gold Finger: Your family comes from a long, proud tradition of housebreaking and thievery. You are a strong part of that tradition. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Disable Device and Sleight of Hand checks, and one of these skills (your choice) becomes a class skill for you.
Taldor
Fashionable: You spent your formative years as a young blade in Oppara and learned the ins and outs of using fashion to improve your relations with others. So long as you are wearing clothing and jewelry worth more than 80 gp, you gain a +1 trait bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive checks. One of these skills (your choice) becomes a class skill for you.
Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Central & West
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Just because one gives you comparatively less than others doesn't mean that there's "no love" for the Grand Lodge.
Not every option has to be equal to all others. As one of the few traits that makes Perception a class skill (which my Cleric thanks Gorum for) it's still very powerful.
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I wanted to change to Grand Lodge, after completing my service to the Lantern Lodge but I'm thinking of Osirian now because I'd rather have Tomb Raider than Observant for my Perception (skill) + Sense Motive bonuses.
So, it matters to me. I also like the Fashionable Taldor Trait though, so I'm torn between the two now. Either way, I'm not impressed with Observant vs Tomb Raider or Fashionable. Seems like its just a bit on the weak sauce side.
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If you're planning on picking up the Extra Traits feat to grab one of those, there may be non-faction traits that would fit the bill better. Or Skill Focus, for that matter. If you already had a Lantern Lodge faction trait, you keep that even after you change factions, as its more a consequence of your background than your current affiliation.
Otherwise, I don't really see the big deal here either.
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I wanted to change to Grand Lodge, after completing my service to the Lantern Lodge but I'm thinking of Osirian now because I'd rather have Tomb Raider than Observant for my Perception (skill) + Sense Motive bonuses.
So, it matters to me. I also like the Fashionable Taldor Trait though, so I'm torn between the two now. Either way, I'm not impressed with Observant vs Tomb Raider or Fashionable. Seems like its just a bit on the weak sauce side.
You don't get new traits when you change factions, unless you take the feat that gives you two additional traits, which is generally regarded as a very suboptimal way to go. You keep the traits you already have, even if one of them came from a faction that no longer exists.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Eric,
1) Transferring from one faction to another does not allow you to re-select your traits. I presume you're using the Extra Trait feat, yes?
2) If the Taldor faction woos your PC over by offering him a +1 trait bonus to three skills for the low price of 80 gold, then go for it. (Presumably he already has Perception and Sense Motive as class skills...)
EDIT: Wow. Super ninja'ed!!
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I never took a Lantern Lodge Trait, so I may take any trait from any faction, I choose to switch to.
Getting two traits, with +1 and class skill bonus for them, means I'm actually getting +4 to a skill check, with every trait I get and since I'm going for 2 of them that's a total of +8 or more skill points.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I never took a Lantern Lodge Trait, so I may take any trait from any faction, I choose to switch to.
Upon taking the Additional Traits feat, yes. Not as a result of switching factions.
Getting two traits, with +1 and class skill bonus for them, means I'm actually getting +4 to a skill check, with every trait I get and since I'm going for 2 of them that's a total of +8 or more skill points.
Just note that although some of the traits give a trait bonus to multiple skills, they still each only make one skill a class skill. Thus, the difference between Observant and Tomb Raider (for instance) is +1 to one skill, not +4. Either one gets you +4 to Perception (if it wasn't already a class skill, and if that's the skill you choose), while Tomb Raider gets you +1 to Knowledge (dungeoneering). That's what the "it's only a +1 that you're worrying about" comments are about.
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Eric,
I think what people are trying to say is that you're required to take traits, feats, class abilities, etc. when they come available. You may not "store them up" to use them at a later point in time.
You must chose your traits based on what you were at level 1 (because you forgot at level 1), you may not perform a scenario, switch factions, and THEN chose that faction's trait. It's not kosher.
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I never took a Lantern Lodge Trait, so I may take any trait from any faction, I choose to switch to.
Getting two traits, with +1 and class skill bonus for them, means I'm actually getting +4 to a skill check, with every trait I get and since I'm going for 2 of them that's a total of +8 or more skill points.
You don't automatically get a faction trait on top of your two traits.
You may select a faction trait as one of your two traits, however.
If you did not select a faction trait as one of your two traits, then you must take the Extra Traits feat to select a new trait.
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Ok, I KNOW the rules. Its a matter of going to lvl. 9, getting 2 more traits. Now, if I get Perception as a class skill and +1 and +1 to dungeoneering, I actually gain +5 total skill points, since my PC is a fighter.
So, since he will have 9 skill points in dungeoneering, he'll have a total of 3 for class skill +1 for the trait and my 9 I already invested, giving him a dungeoneering skill of 13.
And since I've put 1 point into each level of Perception, the trait will make Perception a CLASS skill for me, giving me another +4 skill points in perception.
So, for the single Tomb Raider trait: I get +5 extra skill points. Then my second trait will give me +4 to another skill, as it becomes a class skill for me.
So, for the price of one FEAT, I get +9 skill points. Or I might find another trait that gives multiple +1 bonuses with a skill bonus.
When I get a +2 INT belt, that will give me two maxed out skills, which will both become CLASS skills for my Fighter.
I get it and because I get it, I started this thread.
My beef is that the Grand Lodge isn't very enticing with its traits. Seeing as Tomb Raider is just that much better. And the Andoran one is even better for the social character. Why go for a +1, when you can get +1/+1/+1.
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You don't automatically get a faction trait on top of your two traits.
You may select a faction trait as one of your two traits, however.
If you did not select a faction trait as one of your two traits, then you must take the Extra Traits feat to select a new trait.
You NEVER get to swap your faction trait just because of you change your faction, even if you don't use a free faction change.
Even if he HAD selected a faction trait already, he would NOT be able to gain a faction trait now without taking the Additional Traits feat.
Yes, not sure how I said the opposite.
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As others have said, not all traits are created equal.
Missing out on an extra +1 on a knowledge skill that doesn't come up unless you're facing an ooze really isn't that big a deal, when you're getting a +4 to the skill that's often regarded as the most important skill in the game.
Personally, if I were weighing the pros and cons of Osirion vs Grand Lodge, and was planning to take one of those traits for perception, the role playing considerations of what my PC's personality would think of those factions would be more important to me than the +1 to dungeoneering. But that's just me.
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So my question is. Why no love for the Grand Lodge? The main Lodge of the Decemvirate seems to be rather poor at rewarding its faction members, when in fact these are the most loyal of the Pathfinders and should get some extra something, something.
The real question is "why aren't the factions more equitable and balanced in general"? I'm not sure why they weren't designed with more balance in mind.
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My beef is that the Grand Lodge isn't very enticing with its traits. Seeing as Tomb Raider is just that much better. And the Andoran one is even better for the social character. Why go for a +1, when you can get +1/+1/+1.
Because you chose to.
You want the mechanical benefits, don't go Grand Lodge. You want to be Grand Lodge, go Grand Lodge. You want to be Grand Lodge WITH the mechanical benefits? You are unfortunately out of luck.
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As others have said, not all traits are created equal.
Missing out on an extra +1 on a knowledge skill that doesn't come up unless you're facing an ooze really isn't that big a deal, when you're getting a +4 to the skill that's often regarded as the most important skill in the game.
And not all skills are created equal as well, I get it, Dungeoneering totally blows as a skill choice.
Shouldn't the Grand Lodge provide something to offset that less than spectacular trait offer? And I'm sorry but the Grand Lodge boons SUCK.
It seems that some things need to be reviewed in what boons are offered if your particular Lodge's traits are going to be less than spectacular.
So, IMHO Grand Lodge needs a lot of loving. Because currently the training Grand Lodge Pathfinders are getting is way SUP-PAR in comparison to the other factions. And this is supposed to be THE Lodge not some third string, association.
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Because the shadow lodge is right and the Deciemverate expects you to think service is its own reward
And that's why the Grand Lodge NEEDS some LOVE. The traits are poor and so are the boons.
So Paizo, now that the Lantern Lodge is gone, maybe you can focus on the Grand Lodge and give it a bit more oomph. Just sayin, it can't hurt.
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Ok, I KNOW the rules. Its a matter of going to lvl. 9, getting 2 more traits. Now, if I get Perception as a class skill and +1 and +1 to dungeoneering, I actually gain +5 total skill points, since my PC is a fighter.
So, since he will have 9 skill points in dungeoneering, he'll have a total of 3 for class skill +1 for the trait and my 9 I already invested, giving him a dungeoneering skill of 13.
And since I've put 1 point into each level of Perception, the trait will make Perception a CLASS skill for me, giving me another +4 skill points in perception.
So, for the single Tomb Raider trait: I get +5 extra skill points. Then my second trait will give me +4 to another skill, as it becomes a class skill for me.
So, for the price of one FEAT, I get +9 skill points. Or I might find another trait that gives multiple +1 bonuses with a skill bonus.
When I get a +2 INT belt, that will give me two maxed out skills, which will both become CLASS skills for my Fighter.
I get it and because I get it, I started this thread.
My beef is that the Grand Lodge isn't very enticing with its traits. Seeing as Tomb Raider is just that much better. And the Andoran one is even better for the social character. Why go for a +1, when you can get +1/+1/+1.
First off, I dont think anyone is accusing you of anything, so I think the tone you seem to be taking in this post (with the possibility of your tone being lost on me, since Im just reading words and not hearing you speak) seems unnecessarily defensive.
Second, as far as I can tell, your math seems to be working out right. Yes, if you spend your feat that way, it does seemingly give you a much larger skill boost than the normal skill boosting feats do (though those arent actually the same as skill RANKS, but whatever).
Thirdly, I think I might be confused on the part of your post where you are talking about gaining skills from the +2 Int Headband. You say 'they will both become CLASS skills...' By this, since I assume you know the rules (as you said earlier), I assume you mean that you will be investing the skill ranks the headband grants you into skills that already ARE class skills, and NOT that by putting on the headband, you suddenly gain more class skills. Am I interpreting your comment correctly?
As for why the faction traits are like that...I have no answer, other than to repeat what others have said with 'Not all traits are created equal'. If I had to bet, Id say that whoever wrote the traits didnt do them all in one sitting, so they likely didnt take into consideration what all the different ones did when making new ones.
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I don't remember their boons, so I can't comment on that. But this Grand Lodge trait is easily better than at least 90% of the other traits that are available in the game. There aren't many traits that give perception as a class skill, with a +1 on top of it, so this is still a great trait, even if Osirion happens to have a slightly better one. I don't see that it's worth complaining about them only having one really good trait.
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Well, the upside of the Grand Lodge is that the faction missions tend to be much more above board, and sometimes just require you to help one of the other factions. This makes it generally easier to complete them, meaning more prestige in the long run.
At least, that's been my (limited) experience so far. Does not necessarily apply to the retconned Osirion missions you do for earlier seasons.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Ok, I KNOW the rules. Its a matter of going to lvl. 9, getting 2 more traits. Now, if I get Perception as a class skill and +1 and +1 to dungeoneering, I actually gain +5 total skill points, since my PC is a fighter.
So, since he will have 9 skill points in dungeoneering, he'll have a total of 3 for class skill +1 for the trait and my 9 I already invested, giving him a dungeoneering skill of 13.
To be pedantic, there's a difference between skill bonuses and skill ranks. You use the term "skill points", and I don't know what you mean, but it sounds like you're talking about skill ranks.
The +3 bonus for a skill being a class skill doesn't add to your skill ranks. If you're ninth level, have nine ranks in Perception, and a +1 trait bonus, and a+3 class bonus, and a +n bonus from your fighter's Wisdom, you'll still have only 9 skill ranks.
Therr are items that are pretty cheap, that bestow a bonus to Perception. You might consider looking at one of them or another. Most people would argue that they're cheaper than half a feat.
When I get a +2 INT belt, that will give me two maxed out skills, which will both become CLASS skills for my Fighter.
Just checking: a +2 Magic INT Belt gives you one maxed-out skill. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you: you've been discussing Perception as if you'd already bought ranks in it. Am I to understand that you're using the Extra Trait feat to pick up two traits (Perception and something else) that turn skills into class skills, and then waiting until your Magic INT Belt gives you ranks in the other skill?
I get it and because I get it, I started this thread.
Great. Good luck with the magic INT Belt.
Why go for a +1/+1, when you can get +1/+1/+1?
People here have been explaining that. Either because the backstory of Observant is cooler than the backstory of "I impress people with good clothes" for some PCs, or because the second bonus, to Sense Motive, is more important to that PC than a bonus to Knowledge (Dungeoneering).
And I'm sorry but the Grand Lodge boons SUCK.
There are a lot of people who find a bonus to fight Aspis Consortium members made all the difference in a couple of recent scenarios.
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Yes, not sure how I said the opposite.Well...
If you did not select a faction trait as one of your two traits, then you must take the Extra Traits feat to select a new trait.That implies that if he DID take a faction trait, he could take one now, without having to take the Additional Traits feat.
Past experience has taught me to NOT leave the door open for misinterpretations of statements like that. Which is to say, I knew what you meant (specifically, that if he had taken a faction trait, he can't take another, even with the Additional Traits feat), but I didn't want others to somehow misinterpret that statement.
But read in context with my other two lines, it should have covered that, yes?
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I've lost track of what this post is hoping to accomplish.
You seem to be trying to justify Out of Character bonuses for In Character reasons, i.e. Grand Lodge is the most loyal Pathfinder, yadda yadda, so they should get better bonuses.
How about you accept that the developers have a better understanding of balance than you do as a player and roll with it? Next thing you know you will be saying that your wizard is smarter than a barbarian, he should get more base skill points.
It just makes no sense. My head hurts.
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Sorry, if I'm feeling a bit defensive but the first few replies kinda all went at me from different angles and so I put my shield up.
In regards to traits and boons of the Grand Lodge, I just think they are a bit impoverished and could do with a little work. Especially if the Grand Lodge is supposed to be the Flagship Lodge of the Pathfinder Society.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the Grand Lodge isn't supposed to represent the best of the best or be the Flaghship Lodge.
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You seem to be trying to justify Out of Character bonuses for In Character reasons, i.e. Grand Lodge is the most loyal Pathfinder, yadda yadda, so they should get better bonuses.
How about you accept that the developers have a better understanding of balance than you do as a player and roll with it? Next thing you know you will be saying that your wizard is smarter than a barbarian, he should get more base skill points.
It just makes no sense. My head hurts.
BTW Seth, its responses like this that make me feel defensive.
Now to answer Chad Newman's question. I'm attempting to suggest that the Grand Lodge might deserve a bit of a look under the hood and you are one of those people who oppose any change because the developers are ALWAYS right? Do I understand you correctly?
I get it and I don't feel the need to be rude to you, I don't know why you feel the need to be rude to me. We can have differing opinions and still be polite to one another, can't we?
Venture-Agent, Indiana—Valparaiso
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I kinda of think of it the other way.
Being a member of the Grnad Lodge basically just means you're extra loyal to the society without a side agenda.
It's the simplest faction for a new player and having a simple but very good trait is a gret option for new players.
For a brand new player I pretty much always recommend Grand Lodge and the observant trait for their first character.
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This keeps popping to mind.
So you're admitting that you're a pawn of the deciemverate?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Sorry, if I'm feeling a bit defensive but the first few replies kinda all went at me from different angles and so I put my shield up.
I was snarky in my previous post. I, too, apologize.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the Grand Lodge isn't supposed to represent the best of the best or be the Flaghship Lodge.
I don't think that is supposed to be the idea at all.
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Considering there are a lot of people who don't even take Faction Traits (yourself included, Eric Saxon), and even less who purchase Faction Boons, I think this is being blown way out of proportion.
Actually, I planned it 4 months ago when I created a Lantern Lodge PC and went with the Lantern Lodge PC to get the 'brother' boon and the 'master' boon. And since I knew I'd be leaving the Lantern Lodge and looking for a Perception Trait after I left, I specifically left that (Lodge) Trait slot open.
It wasn't a mistake or a haphazard choice. My issue is that I'd prefer the Grand Lodge but there really is zero enticement to go Grand Lodge. I'm now down to two choices, either Osirion or Taldor. I wish GL had some decent boons or traits but it lacks both, which is why I'm wondering why there is no Love for GL.
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Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the Grand Lodge isn't supposed to represent the best of the best or be the Flaghship Lodge.You are wrong, there is not "best of the best" or "flagship" Lodge. Grand Lodge members are simply those who have chosen to align themselves more closely with the core leadership than most Pathfinders.
Seriously, in a game where they try to avoid a "must-have" option that is superior to others in all ways, why would they make a Lodge that is INTENDED to be better than all of the others? If it WAS better than the others, you'd be a fool to play any of the other factions.
Grand Lodge isn't supposed to be any better or worse than any other faction.
I don't wish for it to be better, I just wish it wasn't worse than the other options, at least in my opinion. Currently, I don't think its better than either of my other two competing options of Taldor or Osirion. (shrug)
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I think there is plenty of love for GL. It just doesn't manifest as 'must make sure all GL options are equal to other options'.
And since I knew I'd be leaving the Lantern Lodge and looking for a Perception Trait after I left, I specifically left that (Lodge) Trait slot open.
By that, you mean 'I did not take a faction trait' not 'I only took one trait and left my second unchosen' right? Because you do have to pick two when you start, not one and save one for later.