Fireball has some useful and interesting seconday effects
"The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze."
My question is, if you change fireball from a Fire subtype to a Cold subtype (using any of the various methods),it does exactly the same damage just in cold damage instead of heat; but it obviously isnt going to be igniting or melting anything, so what would be an appropriate substitute set of secondary effects if any?
It might, depending on the GM, freeze potions and oils or lower the DC to shatter a metallic door. It might even be something that would allow you to cross a small body of water.
Living creatures are slowed, waters becomes ice (other liquids may solidify depending on their freezing point).
Ground is covered in thin ice which causes two legged creatures to slip.
Metal becomes more fragile.
Humans may get a cold :P
Can't think of anything else.
One of the Pc's in our game lobs 'cold' fire spells all the time and we have mostly ignored the 'lifhgitng on fire bit as a result' but i think it technically still lights stuff on fire because the fireball spell says it does. Due to how magic works in the game changing the elemental type technically doesnt change this.
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It still sets things on fire. It's just a 'cold' fire. Magic.
Effects will stay the same. It is still a Fireball that has the [fire] descriptor, but deals cold damage instead of fire damage.
It could do things like wither plants, shrivel moisture-bearing objects (such as most foodstuffs), disable fine machinery like clocks, makes paper and fine cloth brittle, etc.
I don't think a "cold fireball" would cause enough cold to actually make metal brittle. You need to really lower an object's tempereature way down, and that would require sustained cold, rather than just a flash of it.
Peet
Chill your drink on a hot day? I could really uses a cold fireball right now...
Cao Phen wrote: Effects will stay the same. It is still a Fireball that has the [fire] descriptor, but deals cold damage instead of fire damage. The question is spcifically about a fireball with the descriptor changed to cold.
You can if you want, it would be a homebrew thing. I was thinking of the Elemental Metamaging from the top of my head when I was commenting on it. Sorry if it confused anyone in any way.
Cao Phen wrote: Effects will stay the same. It is still a Fireball that has the [fire] descriptor, but deals cold damage instead of fire damage. In my home game I ruled that the only reason it set things on fire had nothing to do with "magic" but was because it was FIRE and thus the fire descriptor. So when you changed the sub-type of the effect from [fire] to [cold] of course you also negate this effect. But that was my personal ruling on the matter.
~ Lazlo ~
Additional effects remain the same.
Cold Fireball lights stuff on fire.
Magic.
Requires no scientific explanation.
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When it comes to magic, it is best not to try to define it using logic.
For example, via "Logic" - if Magical Cold ball of fire slams into you...
1) All your glass potion bottles exposed to the cold, cracks from rapidly turning of water into ice. (Ice expands.) Each bottle can make a Fort save to avoid cracking.
2) Parts of you exposed to the cold gets frost bite or if the cold is severe enough, flash freeze into ice and "breaks off". You may lose a limb, fingers, nose or other extremities to the cold.
3) Roll a percentile dice. On a bad roll, you inhale the cold just as it hits you. Your lungs are damaged from the cold, take appropriate penalty to breathing...etc.
4) Apply similar effects to the area around you.
5) If you are swimming, you may be stuck in a block of ice.
5a) Roll a percentile dice, on a bad roll you are underwater when the cold effects hit and you are now stuck face-in-ice. Make appropriate attempts to breathe and break free.
6) Fires are put out, Lava hardens, frozen foods may be flash freeze and ready for long term storage.
7) The list goes on...
So... just try to avoid thinking too much on magical effects...
From the PRD on the Admixture school:
"Versatile Evocation (Su): When you cast an evocation spell that does acid, cold, electricity, or fire damage, you may change the damage dealt to one of the other four energy types. This changes the descriptor of the spell to match the new energy type. Any non-damaging effects remain unchanged unless the new energy type invalidates them (an ice storm that deals fire damage might still provide a penalty on Perception checks due to smoke, but it would not create difficult terrain). Such effects are subject to GM discretion. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier."
I don't know if this ability is what is being used to change the spell or not, nor if other methods have similar wording. Using this method, though, I'd say that things are not set on fire (it's not a directly damaging effect... that's the 1d6 x caster level part). The ability mentions nothing about adding appropriate effects.
That's from a Rules standpoint, since we're in that forum. Now were we discussing Home Brew, I'd say let your imagination and fun run wild, yet with caution. Being able to customize special effects is more power than this ability was meant to add, and so may make balance wonky if that's an issue with your group.
If it's an admixture wizard doing this, the side-effects change because the description of the ability says they do. If you're changing it in any other fashion, you'd have to say which method you are using for a better answer.
Magic explanation aside, there are even real-world parallels to "freezing fire". Certain chemicals can be burned and the fire will rapidly pull heat away from submersed objects such that, if you set a container of freezable liquid in a container of said chemicals and set the chemicals on fire, the container of freezable liquid will be frozen solid by flames that, at the same time, will burn a piece of paper exposed to them. Thus, by "magically" causing these chemicals to form on a person as they're exposed to the fireball, the fire will freeze the water in their bodies while, at the same time, burning combustible materials in the area; viola, fire that ignites objects but freezes liquids.
CadRe wrote: Fireball has some useful and interesting seconday effects
"The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze."
My question is, if you change fireball from a Fire subtype to a Cold subtype (using any of the various methods),it does exactly the same damage just in cold damage instead of heat; but it obviously isnt going to be igniting or melting anything, so what would be an appropriate substitute set of secondary effects if any?
Necro because this just came up in the game.
By rule, the answer has to be no. A fireball whose damage type is any thing other than fire does not set things on fire.
Why?
1. Because there are specific rules for things "Catching on fire."
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/environment.html#catching-o n-fire
The rule requires...wait for it...wait for it....fire. Crazy hunh?
2. The fireball spells explicitly states that things can be "set on fire," it does not say they are magically on fire or that the damage from the fire is part of the spell's ongoing damage.
3. Versatile Evocation has an explicit clause about non-damaing effects being invalidated by the damage type, what's more, it's one of the few abilities that explicitly tells us that "GM discretion" is necessary. Why? So the GM is empowered to make the outcomes consistent with the change in damage type.
4. There are no non-fire spells that set things on fire or cause them to catch fire (now watch there be some electrical spell that does this). So there isn't even a magical basis for this (again, I will expect someone to find a contrary example).
For something to catch on fire and burn per the Catching on Fire rules, there has to be fire, magical in some cases, but fire nonetheless. And while instantaneous magical fires don't normally set things on fire, some spells do because the damage type is fire and the authors must have felt that nature of the fire supported that possibility. But it's not because the magic automatically sets things on fire regardless.
I think the confusion on this topic is people's different imaginings of the spell. IMO, it's not a "cold fireball" that is cast, it's a Cold spell that has the same damage and AoE as a fireball. It's not the same spell just doing cold damage; it's a ColdSplosion or something.
That said, I don't have a problem with "Cold burns" because that's also a thing; but I'd still arbitrate some differences. Rather than burning scrolls or wood, it'd freeze potions or whatnot.
Regardless, I think where people fall on the matter depends on their perception of what's going on. I just had to respond because I don't see it as "Cold-fire" being cast, I see it as a completely different spell that simply is the cold version of a fireball; like "Ice Bomb" or some such.
Cattleman wrote: I think the confusion on this topic is people's different imaginings of the spell. That's gracious. I am of the opinion that there is no confusion, just lobbying so that people can have their cake and eat it, too.
If you want to "set fire" to things, then you have to use fire. You don't get to use Force or Sonic damage to avoid fire immunity and then insist you also get to cause fire damage because a "fire"ball can set things on fire. It's an attempt at gaming the system and the clause in Versatile Evocation explicitly and implicitly charges GMs with invalidating any such loopholes.
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