DR n / epic - When is an attack epic?

[Threeshades]

Some monster even in the Bestiaries (for example the Tarrasque) have /epic behind their DR. But I can't seem to find a Paizo official definition of what constitutes an Epic attack. Does such a thing even exist in paizo official rules? And what criteria make an attack or weapon "epic"?

[Nefreet]

I believe a +6 weapon, such with a Magus or a Bane weapon, bypasses DR/Epic.

[Lincoln Hills]

Alternately, find another monster with DR/epic and lure it into a fight with the first, but I'd say fly and seven or eight quivers full of +4 bane arrows is probably your best friend in this situation.

[DonDuckie]

Or maybe a barbarian with natural weapons(not sure if that even works DR/-, anyone?). Toothy half-orcs anyone? I know there are rage powers for it. But they're not called "toothy".

[Thazar]

The Mythic book is coming out in August and will probably have what you need. That being said anything that can be made by the current rules would not be epic as craft epic weapon does not exist yet either.

[PathlessBeth]

The "normal" way is for a weapon to have an enhancement bonus of +6 or higher. This does not mean a +5 weapon with special abilities, it must actually have an enhancement bonus of +6 or higher. In 3.0/3.5, such items could only be crafted by epic characters (those with levels over 21). Paizo has not yet published epic rules, and there are none currently planned, so unless you are using the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook, the players will only ever get epic attacks from artifacts. Additionally, certain (very high-CR) monsters have natural weapons which count as epic. These monsters' descriptions will ALWAYS tell you when this is the case.

So basically, unless you are using the ELH (which is 3.0, and was never updated to 3.5, let alone PF), the only time you will see "epic" weapons for DR purposes is from artifacts which specifically tell you, and from monsters which specifically tell you.

EDIT:

Thazar wrote:

The Epic book is coming out in August and will probably have what you need. That being said anything that can be made by the current rules would not be epic as craft epic weapon does not exist yet either.

Ultimate Mythic is not an Epic book, it contains ways to give boosts to level 1-20 characters separate from character level, but is not any sort of support for level 21+--epic level play is still in the stage of "we might give it a little support in the future at some point but we aren't sure..."

EDIT 2: The playtest for Mythic included DR/Epic for a lot of players, and specified that it could (normally) only be overcome by artifacts and very powerful monsters. If you want to include 3.0 Epic magic items in your game, basically the way it worked was that nonepic items have certain numerical limits. Any item which passed one or more of these limits was Epic, and required a caster level of 21+ to create. Also, when determining cost, the portion of the item that broke the nonepic limit had 10 times the cost. The things that made an item epic were:

ELH wrote:

Grants a bonus on attacks or damage greater than +5.
Grants an enhancement bonus to armor higher than +5.
Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5.
Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armor’s enhancement bonus).
Grants a natural armor, deflection, or resistance bonus greater than +5.
Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6.
Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30.
Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th.
Has a caster level above 20th.
Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items.

ANY of those things make an item epic, and make it cost 10 times as much (with the exception of the market price limit of 200,000).

[Morgen]

I found it for you Threeshades. It's in the universal monster rules.

PRD wrote:

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

So yeah given the current rules of the game the only way something that that doesn't have the behemoth subtype is going to do it with a weapon is if that is a +4 or +5 bane weapon of the appropriate type.

[Threeshades]

Thanks, that gave a definitive answer, so if i read that right, a creature with DR/epic also has epic natural attacks?

[DonDuckie]

yes, they are considered epic

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

Morgen wrote:

I found it for you Threeshades. It's in the universal monster rules.

PRD wrote:

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

So yeah given the current rules of the game the only way something that that doesn't have the behemoth subtype is going to do it with a weapon is if that is a +4 or +5 bane weapon of the appropriate type.

A Paladin can overcome it via Smite, if the Epic creature is Evil.

[lemeres]

Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:

A Paladin can overcome it via Smite, if the Epic creature is Evil.

Ah, that might actually be a legitimate route. Anyone know of any other abilities that allows you to simply circumvent DR?

I know that martial artist monks have their "Exploit Weakness" ability, but that relies on a check of 10+Monster's CR, and I seem to remember that Paizo's rules for epic creatures in that download on this site about their test having the Epic levels separate from the regular ones. I have no idea what to label the CR of an Epic creature.

[James Fenix]

lemeres wrote:

Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:

A Paladin can overcome it via Smite, if the Epic creature is Evil.

Ah, that might actually be a legitimate route. Anyone know of any other abilities that allows you to simply circumvent DR?

I know that martial artist monks have their "Exploit Weakness" ability, but that relies on a check of 10+Monster's CR, and I seem to remember that Paizo's rules for epic creatures in that download on this site about their test having the Epic levels separate from the regular ones. I have no idea what to label the CR of an Epic creature.

A 14th level inquisitor ignores damage reduction when they crit.

[Xaratherus]

lemeres wrote:

Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:

A Paladin can overcome it via Smite, if the Epic creature is Evil.

Ah, that might actually be a legitimate route. Anyone know of any other abilities that allows you to simply circumvent DR?

I know that martial artist monks have their "Exploit Weakness" ability, but that relies on a check of 10+Monster's CR, and I seem to remember that Paizo's rules for epic creatures in that download on this site about their test having the Epic levels separate from the regular ones. I have no idea what to label the CR of an Epic creature.

Just a reminder: Epic =/= Mythic. The rules that you downloaded are for the Mythic playtest, which is a completely separate concept from Epic per the designer's notes.

Mythic tiers are earned separately from class levels, and can actually apply to characters who are 'level 1' in regards to character\class levels.

So for Epic, you would use the same rules - an Epic creature would be 10+Monster's CR

[Nawtyit]

James Jacobs wrote:

Nawtyit wrote:

Would a +4 or +5 bane weapon, becoming +6 or +7, bypass DR/Epic against a creature it was bane to?
(+4 magical beast bane weapon bypasses Tarrasque’s DR 15/Epic, for example)

Nope.

It has been stated that bane can't raise a weapon bonus above +5 for DR.

[KainPen]

The FAQ in March changed that bane is allowed to go past the normal limits. The play test of mythic brought out that answer. because more creatures would have epic dr.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qd9

[Nawtyit]

Ooo, nice!
Now I can beat Big T even faster!

[Cheapy]

Paladin's smite evil bypasses it.

[Deadmoon]

Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even non-magical fire) ignore damage reduction.

[Fromper]

Yup, the best way to fight a tarrasque is with acid flasks. Sure, they only do 1d6 at a time, but they skip the DR. :P

[lemeres]

Fromper wrote:

Yup, the best way to fight a tarrasque is with acid flasks. Sure, they only do 1d6 at a time, but they skip the DR. :P

And then run right up against resistances. If something has enough power to gain DR/epic, then it likely has a least a few worthwhile resistances.

[Chemlak]

Fromper wrote:

Yup, the best way to fight a tarrasque is with acid flasks. Sure, they only do 1d6 at a time, but they skip the DR. :P

Tarrasque wrote:

DR 15/epic; Immune ability damage , acid, bleed , disease, energy drain, fire, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, permanent wounds, petrification, poison, polymorph; SR 36

Good luck with that.