Goblin Squad Member
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Does this apply to the miners being discussed also?If nullsec and wormhole miners used jetcans, would anyone dare steal from them, or bother to salt them so as to flag the hauler as a thief?Sure. Piracy happens in null sec. Usually in the form of raids by other alliances. But nobody does null sec piracy half-assed because the defenders won't be half-assed.
High sec pirates are the ones who couldn't cut it in null-sec or never had the guts to try living there in the first place.
Sure. Anyone who spends much time mining anything other than ice (which requires almost 0 effort) in high sec is either a newb, a bot, or should really move to 0.0 / WH space.
The alliances should really be recruiting high sec miners and even mission runners more heavily. That would be a great use of time for these pricks trying to discourage high sec mining by griefing the miners.
I feel like the fact so many people live in high sec for so long is one of the major failures of both the EVE model and it's community.
One of the major goals I'd like to see this model and community achieve is to create an environment where people can jump straight into the game and be living in player controlled hexes within a week. Sounds like this game will start with roughly 12,000 places to build outposts so that sounds very achievable to me.
Does this apply to the miners being discussed also?If nullsec and wormhole miners used jetcans, would anyone dare steal from them, or bother to salt them so as to flag the hauler as a thief?Sure. Piracy happens in null sec. Usually in the form of raids by other alliances. But nobody does null sec piracy half-assed because the defenders won't be half-assed.
High sec pirates are the ones who couldn't cut it in null-sec or never had the guts to try living there in the first place.
Sure. Anyone who spends much time mining anything other than ice (which requires almost 0 effort) in high sec is either a newb, a bot, or should really move to 0.0 / WH space.
The alliances should really be recruiting high sec miners and even mission runners more heavily. That would be a great use of time for these pricks trying to discourage high sec mining by griefing the miners.
I feel like the fact so many people live in high sec for so long is one of the major failures of both the EVE model and it's community.
One of the major goals I'd like to see this model and community achieve is create an environment where people can jump straight into the game and be living in player controlled hexes within a week. Sounds like this game will start with roughly 12,000 placed to build outposts so that sounds very achievable to me.
Why the hell would alliances want to recruit miners...we have no use for them. Most of the materials needed for manufacture are mineable in hisec, it just needs a few null sec miners to round out the BoM.
Recruiting miners that will be mining exactly what they do in hisec is just creating a target for no reason. You keep telling us of your Eve experience then you come out with things like this....
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the major goals I'd like to see this model and community achieve is to create an environment where people can jump straight into the game and be living in player controlled hexes within a week. Sounds like this game will start with roughly 12,000 places to build outposts so that sounds very achievable to me.
Sorry, won't start there. That's just the area from the Thornkeep book that they currently have plans to expand to sometime after the launch of OE.
Edit: Linkie to the source. Also, Qallz is right; your numbers might be a bit off...
Sounds like this game will start with roughly 12,000 places to build outposts so that sounds very achievable to me.
Not even close. There's only 2 outposts location per Wilderness hex. That means there would have to be 6k Wilderness Hexes at the start of EE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Steelwing, he admitted himself that he went out to some backwater 0.0 were he could go weeks without seeing anyone and rat, completely safe behind some alliance curtain most likely.
Just to give you a clue Andius:
Name Amamake Planets 6 Jumps 1h/24h 269 7208
Region Heimatar Moons 21 Ship Kills. 4 133
Constellation Hed Belts/Icebelts 9 NPC Kills 1 137
Security Level 0.4 Security Class E Pod Kills 0 81
Faction Minmatar Republic Local Pirates Angels
Minerals Kernite, Plagioclase, Scordite, Veldspar, Omber (not accurate)
Yeah... 7208 jumps in last 24 hours. 133 ship kills / 81 Pod Kills
But you boast about freaking 0.0 or wormhole space like that is where the real pvpers go. Poke your head in Amamake for a day, I dare you! Even if you got popped and podded, at least we'd know you had the balls to go there.
Does this apply to the miners being discussed also?If nullsec and wormhole miners used jetcans, would anyone dare steal from them, or bother to salt them so as to flag the hauler as a thief?Sure. Piracy happens in null sec. Usually in the form of raids by other alliances. But nobody does null sec piracy half-assed because the defenders won't be half-assed.
High sec pirates are the ones who couldn't cut it in null-sec or never had the guts to try living there in the first place.
Sure. Anyone who spends much time mining anything other than ice (which requires almost 0 effort) in high sec is either a newb, a bot, or should really move to 0.0 / WH space.
The alliances should really be recruiting high sec miners and even mission runners more heavily. That would be a great use of time for these pricks trying to discourage high sec mining by griefing the miners.
I feel like the fact so many people live in high sec for so long is one of the major failures of both the EVE model and it's community.
This is what I do not understand. You attack someone and label their actions as griefing even though they were using a legitimate tactic to engage in PvP that warns the miner, and even though that miner was travelling without protection or armed themselves, yet you go on to say that EVE is a failure because people will not move into null sec.
Why advocate making high sec even safer than it is and label PvP tactics there griefing, yet call people newbs/bots and tell them they need to move into null sec space?
Sure, it might be a cheap tactic, but the miner has a notification pop up on their UI, has the option to arm themselves or bring friends, has the option to buy secure containers and also has the option to actually watch what they're doing.
I see this more as a PvEer being dragged into PvP (in a PvP game mind you) and then complaining about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah... Here is the safety of high sec:
Name Rens Planets 9 Jumps 1h/24h 703 20404
Region Heimatar Moons 48 Ship Kills 3 87
Constellation Ortner Belts/Icebelts 0 NPC Kills 525 13602
Security Level 0.9 Security Class D Pod Kills 2 29
Faction Minmatar Republic Local Pirates Angels
Minerals Plagioclase, Scordite, Veldspar (not accurate)
Last 24 hours: 87 ship kills, 29 Pod kills
Yeah, no place for PvPers there...... Better head out to one of the 7000 systems in 0.0 where the real action is, you might see someone in a month or two... Again, unless your in some big alliance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why the hell would alliances want to recruit miners...we have no use for them. Most of the materials needed for manufacture are mineable in hisec, it just needs a few null sec miners to round out the BoM.
Recruiting miners that will be mining exactly what they do in hisec is just creating a target for no reason. You keep telling us of your Eve experience then you come out with things like this....
Null sec mining is still more profitable. For any not aware, ore types are a bit restricted by region but the way the belts go is high sec gets high sec ore, low sec gets high sec ore plus high sec ore, null sec gets high sec and low sec ore plus null sec ore.
When ore belts are sitting there untouched, you just go in and mine the ores in order of how profitable they are. Also in a well tanked mining barge you can take out some of the rats in the easier null sec systems using your drones, yielding a bit of extra ISK. Much better ISK than any high sec rats.
RCY-19 (the system I spent most of my time in Null sec) was an extremely low population system. It had a station (not a regular POS but a full-fledged station), and other than afk people on that station I was the only person in system most of the time I was on. However it was one of the systems raiders came through on their way to the Imperial Legion capital. Often I was the first person to warn them of incoming hostiles. Also if there was a major fleet action I was required to hop into a PvP ship and come help out.
So me being there provided me with higher profits and them with faster warnings of incoming hostiles / another person to help in fights. Had more players lived out there with me that would be more of us to warn them of incoming hostiles, more ships in the fleet (even frigates could help make a difference), and more people in local so that we can warn eachother on TS if a neutral entered the system. They probably could have had at least another half a dozen miners out there without denting my profits even a little. And there were more than enough NPCs to go around as well.
So I don't know. Why would they bring more miners out?
Why advocate making high sec even safer than it is and label PvP tactics there griefing, yet call people newbs/bots and tell them they need to move into null sec space?
Because people have a perception that null sec is way worse than high sec. Doesn't have to be true for it to be real in their minds. They say. "Even in high sec, I'm getting people trying to suicide gank me. There are these corporations that do nothing but war-dec newb corps like ours. There's all these scammers and miner bumpers. There's even pricks tricking me into flagging myself by f~$#ing with my ore can. You want me to live somewhere more dangerous than this? No thank I'm sticking to high sec / quitting this shitty game."
They never even give null sec or WH-space a try because their experiences in high sec paint an extremely negative perception of EVE. If people spent more time enjoying the primary PvP content (fighting other null-sec alliances)and less time finding ways to abuse systems to get at newbs they would say.
"Hey. It's really boring / safe here and I heard there is both action and better profits in null-sec. Let's give it a try."
But the fact is for players like Bluddwolf it's not about profits or they would be in null sec. It's not about danger, thrill, and competition, or they would be in null sec. These are sick people who derive their pleasure from the suffering of others, and that's why they are finding ways to kill the newbs in high-sec. Null sec players fight back harder and get less upset when they die. So where's the fun in that? When they are tolerated by the developers and the community they drive away many more players than they worth. They have a negative value to subscription numbers and quality of the community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lol, simpley Lol... Not one shred of reality in that whole tirade.
Yes, everyone in High Sec is a noob, that is a known fact, in the dilussional mind of Andius.
Yes, every instance of red flashy tricking leads to the loss of a ship on the part of the miner, in the dilussional mind of Andius. Never mind the fact that 95 out of a 100 times, the miner warps out and abandons his jet cans.
Nevermind the fact that this was an old tactic, when jet canning was common and very profitable. This was during a time pre salvaging, so the value if killing mining barges was not really there.
His lack of understanding of the game, its evolution over the last 9 years and the true reason why EvEs number of subscriptions are the opposite of all other MMOs, makes me wonder how many weeks he had played the game or in what completely sheltered bubble he played in.
I'll take up just one point of his that is ridiculous and indicative of his not being ready for Open World PvP.
He rails against high sec war decs as being a griefing of noob corps. Instead he says, if you want PvP, go out to big alliance PvP in 00. High Sec is to be care bear haven, no PvP and no limitation on an inflationary economy.
How long will he cry the same tune with PFOs feud mechanic?
I have no doubt it will be instant. He will claim all PvP should be settlement based and company based PvP will be griefing noobs.
The only non consensual PvP that Andius believes in is his mechanically advantaged, Chaotic Evil bloodthirsty vendetta against anyone he disagrees with.
Andius is going to find out fast, with 220 potential settlements, there will be too many small settlements for him to defend and his own settlement is going to want him to stay close and defend their's. I don't anticipate him to do that. Instead he will galavant around, chasing bandits, leaving his settlement high and dry against real threats looking to do real damage.
The funniest thing is, UNC won't have to lift a finger to make him fail, he will do that all on his own.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bludd, I understand that it's frustrates you that your play style falls under the devs definition of griefing but it's no reason to start putting words in other peoples mouths. I think the right thing to do is to adjust your expectation regarding what PFO is and realize that it's not EVE in a fantasy setting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bludd, I understand that it's frustrates you that your play style falls under the devs definition of griefing but it's no reason to start putting words in other peoples mouths. I think the right thing to do is to adjust your expectation regarding what PFO is and realize that it's not EVE in a fantasy setting.
Link Dev's Definition of Griefing Please!
Or, has Andius convinced you he is a Dev?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Link Dev's Definition of Griefing Please!
Sure.
A couple of comments about PvP / Griefing
Here's some excerpts that I think are quire relevant.
It is not our intention to create an "anything goes" world where players are subjected to endless scams, ganks, and immersion breaking behavior.
I'm especially concerned with ensuring that new players are able to learn how to play the game, gain some mastery of basic gameplay features, have some fun, and have a great experience without having to worry about someone intentionally ruining it for them by scamming them, killing them, taunting them, or otherwise disrupting their attention which should be focused on dealing with the sensory overload of going into a new virtual world.
I'm secondarily concerned with ensuring that people who choose a low risk / low reward course of play are able to do so without regular interruption by those seeking to gain enjoyment from interfering with them as they go about their business.
What I want is for people... to be able to assess the risk of the area they are in and the actions they are taking with reasonable ease.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I applaud Bluddwolf and others for sharing their stories and tactics here. I am convinced that Ryan is following this thread very closely. :) When I read about these tactics I do not know wether I should laugh or cry, but there sure is something to learn here. Such ingenuity. :)
The question I ask myself is, would I have quit Eve right away if something like the above jet-can rigging tactic would have happened to me as a newbie? I guess this is different for everyone, but I figure that Ryan and co will be challenging themselves in a similar way every time something like this crops up.
The above tactic hardly seems the kind of griefing that Ryan wants to discourage, especially since those popup warnings occur to a player. When is something like that considered toxic gameplay? Possibly if it drives newbie players away.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At the end of all the example and information given here, I stick by the opinion that I find it dirty and underhanded to use the jet can "trick", but I think the solution is that the Jet Can should have been designed better, such that anything put into it, being an unsecured container, would no longer flag anyone for stealing anything. Then you could have a separate class of secured container, and then make the crime about cracking the security of said container and opening it when not authorized regardless of whether you are adding or not.
Let us ignore whether the "trick" is or is not griefing for a moment and see if that perhaps we can agree that we do not want such terribly designed systems as to even allow ambiguity over whether it is griefing or desired gameplay.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At the end of all the example and information given here, I stick by the opinion that I find it dirty and underhanded to use the jet can "trick", but I think the solution is that the Jet Can should have been designed better, such that anything put into it, being an unsecured container, would no longer flag anyone for stealing anything. Then you could have a separate class of secured container, and then make the crime about cracking the security of said container and opening it when not authorized regardless of whether you are adding or not.
Let us ignore whether the "trick" is or is not griefing for a moment and see if that perhaps we can agree that we do not want such terribly designed systems as to even allow ambiguity over whether it is griefing or desired gameplay.
And yes, I understand that not all game mechanics can be perfectly designed up front. Part of the endeavor would include a willingness to go in and change such mechanics that are providing ambiguity so that they are more clearly defined as to their purpose.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The above tactic hardly seems the kind of griefing that Ryan wants to discourage, especially since those popup warnings occur to a player.
I agree that disabling the popup warning puts a significant responsibility on the victim, but I also expect the game system itself made it onerous to leave that popup on, and that many new players turned it off as a matter of convenience.
I'm especially concerned with ensuring that new players are able to learn how to play the game, gain some mastery of basic gameplay features, have some fun, and have a great experience without having to worry about someone intentionally ruining it for them by scamming them, killing them, taunting them, or otherwise disrupting their attention which should be focused on dealing with the sensory overload of going into a new virtual world.
Sure, Bluddwolf can make the argument that he wasn't "intentionally" ruining their experience but rather he was trying to teach them a valuable lesson - he was doing them a favor, you see.
I would hope that you might see how someone could view it differently, though, and how it might actually be exactly "the kind of griefing that Ryan wants to discourage". He has consistently and repeatedly told us that he doesn't want the UI to make it difficult for new players to know what to expect with regard to PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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+1 to the idea that, if Jet Cans were in PfO, the dev team would patch them to remove things like that from happening by making the risk vs reward for them much clearer. I think that's the big issue with EVE; stuff pops up that makes people angry because the game mechanics are unintuitive or the UI behaves a certain way and the EVE dev team just ignored the problems.
It's not that I don't want things like Jet Cans to exist; I would love things like a public storage mule that anyone can take your stuff from. Such things give the risk vs reward scale a fine granularity and cause the crafters/merchants/whatever to make meaningful decisions on how much risk they are willing to take. But, if something like that is included, it needs to be clear what the risks are. I think most of the people who rage about the Jet Cans were simply unaware that they could work like that (and frankly, I don't sympathize much with the people who knew it could work that way but use them and expect a different outcome).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed, The "toxic community" comments are not justified.
The perceptions of toxicity in the gaming community exist, justified or not, and are significant for any game that will remind potential customers of Eve. Countering that rumor for the potential player is a real need.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are two points to remember here:
First, it is not just new players in Hig Sec. This is an image that Andius, for a self serving purpose, is trying to push.
Second,there is a certain amount of responsibility that players have to learn the dangers of the game, in an open world PVP game.
I have described the changes the CCP made to beef up the hit points of mining barges, to prevent them from being suicide ganked by a handful of cruisers. The theory was to give them additional protection and fittings for protection, and to up the force strength needed to kill them. It would take at least one or two Battle cruisers, to pop the same barge post buff of the hit points. Instead, some miners, spent the fittign space to rig their ships for more cargo capacity and mining efficiency at the expense of not just the new buffs, but actually made them weaker pre buff.
This did not stop those miners from complaining that the new changes did them no good, and suicide ganking was still a big problem.
GW is aware of various tricks of the trade. If they prevent them from happening, then they are exploits. If they don't but they are aware of them, then they are not exploits, but working as intended.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The above tactic hardly seems the kind of griefing that Ryan wants to discourage, especially since those popup warnings occur to a player.I would hope that you might see how someone could view it differently, though, and how it might actually be exactly "the kind of griefing that Ryan wants to discourage". He has consistently and repeatedly told us that he doesn't want the UI to make it difficult for new players to know what to expect with regard to PvP.
I certainly can, I am not an Eve player and therefore can not rightly judge the exact effect that this trick must have had on some players. If the consequences are so severe that a player would quit over this, then it could very well fall under Ryans definition.
Please note that for me, reading about this sort of tactic is a bit of litmus test on how I will fare in PFO. You must know that you are talking to an *utter* carebear(I never had much problem with that word, well, a little bit) who has played pretty much only PvE games but nevertheless is intrigued by the true player vs player experience that PFO seems to want to offer, including the heavy social aspects of it. I could well be the first player that quits when something like the above happens to him. Untill then I try to learn a little something: like do not disable pop-ups that tell you you are about to cross a line. :)
I am not trumpeting Bluddwolffs tactic an sich: I am just glad that stuff like this comes up and can be part of a healthy discussion. Hopefully discussions like this keep coming up and will stay just as civil as this one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they prevent them from happening, then they are exploits. If they don't but they are aware of them, then they are not exploits, but working as intended.
So, the only "exploits" are the ones you can't actually use because they've been prevented? And however the game is currently working is the way it was intended to work?
[Edit] I can easily imagine a scenario where the devs are "aware" of an exploit and aren't yet sure how to stop it.
i dont see it as grief but as a low dirt tactic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There does need to be a line wherein a game like this can't or won't hold your hand and protect you from your own ignorance or willful actions.
I am not sure whether Bluddwolf's example with the freighters or the "jetcan trick" can/should be protected against. Didn't they know that they were trading added protection for capacity and improved function? Didn't they know that they were taking ore that was not theirs?
How much should players be protected from their own actions if it is made clear that those actions will weaken or flag them?
This game could be different if it is clear what causes what "state". There will STILL be those that take things laying around or choose carry capacity over armor or choose not to bring protection. They will STILL complain when it does not work out for them.
So, yes, educate the masses. Deal with unexpected exploits and if there not a current way to fix them, make it clear that it is an exploit and forbidden. Some other games do it that way.
Then let them make their choices.
Why the hell would alliances want to recruit miners...we have no use for them. Most of the materials needed for manufacture are mineable in hisec, it just needs a few null sec miners to round out the BoM.
Recruiting miners that will be mining exactly what they do in hisec is just creating a target for no reason. You keep telling us of your Eve experience then you come out with things like this....
Null sec mining is still more profitable. For any not aware, ore types are a bit restricted by region but the way the belts go is high sec gets high sec ore, low sec gets high sec ore plus high sec ore, null sec gets high sec and low sec ore plus null sec ore.
Once again Andius you show of your lack of null sec experience. If mining fleets are out there they become a target. This means they need to be protected. This means other more profitable activities such as anomaly running have to be curtailed and people assigned to be ready to protect those miners. This means actually having a combat fleet in there with them as by the time a fleet left station in response to the hot drop it would be far too late.
I am not going to bother responding to your idiocies anymore. Go and live in a null sec alliance for a year rather than hiding away in a wormhole and thinking it makes you some sort of authority of how things work in null sec
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Goblin Squad Member
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This would be an easy solution to the jet-can exploit: If you add to a can you didn't create you forfeit rights to the ore and get a pop=up stating so. The creator of the can can always remove from it without going hostile. If you want to steal, steal. Don't "taint" a can and pretend you're helping them by making it so they can't draw their own ore out without you getting to shoot them down.
But EVE won't change that and PFO won't have jet-cans, so I guess it's pointless to talk about.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Steelwing
Rather you show yours. If you mine aligned to a station and keep an eye on local, there is no reason for anyone to waste time guarding you except in systems where rats are stronger than a tanked mining barge.
RYC-19 isn't wormhole space and I didn't need a babysitter out there to make some pretty good profits. My only complaint is I had to switch to a combat ship to deal with rats since it was -0.9 Price I paid for a nearly private system with a station and tons of valuable ore.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This means other more profitable activities such as anomaly running have to be curtailed and people assigned to be ready to protect those miners. This means actually having a combat fleet in there with them as by the time a fleet left station in response to the hot drop it would be far too late.
Oh man! This is one of the best Human Resource Management jokes I heard in a while. For a second I thought you where actually serious :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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This would be an easy solution to the jet-can exploit: If you add to a can you didn't create you forfeit rights to the ore and get a pop=up stating so. The creator of the can can always remove from it without going hostile. If you want to steal, steal. Don't "taint" a can and pretend you're helping them by making it so they can't draw their own ore out without you getting to shoot them down.
But EVE won't change that and PFO won't have jet-cans, so I guess it's pointless to talk about.
Actually EVE did change, jet cans are a thing of the past or only something morons use. The new mining barges have ore capacity double or triple what they used to be.
"Can Flipping" which was the bread and butter of ore thieves was replaced by ninja loot/salvagers used against mission runners.
Mission Salvaging, is much more skill intensive. In PFO terms it might be the equivalent of scanning down a private instance. Then going in behind the adventure party, and looting the bodies of NPCs they left behind (to loot themselves later). This was actually far more lucrative then ore theft (salvage is worth a lot more then minerals), and the fittings dropped by NPCs could be refined down to their mineral resources and then re manufactured as ammunition (always in demand).
In moist cases, the mission runners would be flying expensive Tech 2 ships, fit with tech 2 gear, but they were fit for PVE and not PVP. When they saw a small PVP fleet warp in, they bugged out. My groups were always satisfied with the bug outs, rather than actually tackling and killing the ships. We just had to keep out eyes on local, in case they returned with their own PVP fleet.
Of course before actually ninja looting or can flipping, we always collected some intelligence on the potential victim. We didn't want to piss off the really big alliances, although every once in a while re ran into a meta corporation of one.
This is the kind of interactions i'M hoping most for in PFO. having to gather intelligence, pick your targets well. Look for patterns and be wary of a counter attack.
I'm elated to read about outposts, especially about how many of them there will potentially be.
I'm sure some people will cry and moan that some outposts are "noob" owned and that will be griefing noobs. I think it should be abundantly clear, how ridiculously false that claim is. It would not be griefing in EVE, it own't be in PFO and there are no guarantees of safety (even for noobs) in an open world PVP MMO.
If these supposed defenders of the noob are so serious about their cause, I'll expect to see them patrolling the starter area 90% of their time.
This means other more profitable activities such as anomaly running have to be curtailed and people assigned to be ready to protect those miners. This means actually having a combat fleet in there with them as by the time a fleet left station in response to the hot drop it would be far too late.Oh man! This is one of the best Human Resource Management jokes I heard in a while. For a second I thought you where actually serious :)
Sorry why would anyone want to spend time guarding miners. We need to finance our pvp too and when we aren't fighting we need to make money. We do not make money guarding miners and the profits of null sec mining are not significant compared to other incomes.
Of course it seems that you like Andius know better than all of the null sec alliances. You notice that none of them go around recruiting miners and if people turn up in corp and want to mine the response is go ahead but you won't get anyone coming to guard you.
Null sec alliances act efficiently. Alliances that don't act efficiently get destroyed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This means other more profitable activities such as anomaly running have to be curtailed and people assigned to be ready to protect those miners. This means actually having a combat fleet in there with them as by the time a fleet left station in response to the hot drop it would be far too late.Oh man! This is one of the best Human Resource Management jokes I heard in a while. For a second I thought you where actually serious :)Sorry why would anyone want to spend time guarding miners. We need to finance our pvp too and when we aren't fighting we need to make money. We do not make money guarding miners and the profits of null sec mining are not significant compared to other incomes.
Of course it seems that you like Andius know better than all of the null sec alliances. You notice that none of them go around recruiting miners and if people turn up in corp and want to mine the response is go ahead but you won't get anyone coming to guard you.
Null sec alliances act efficiently. Alliances that don't act efficiently get destroyed.
May I ask what alliance you are with? Because none of this seems in line with what the alliances do that have any right to be called successful.
For those interested in figures here is a blog on the subject of null sec mining
The conclusion is even with the changes Oddysey bring there are still sufficient problems to make null sec mining not worthwhile
If CCP makes it worthwhile to mine then you may see alliances doing it. But Papavers humour at my suggestion that it is down to opportunity cost I think is demonstrated as false
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Goblin Squad Member
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The conclusion is even with the changes Oddysey bring there are still sufficient problems to make null sec mining not worthwhile
Ignoring the colossal amount of assumption this blog was to rely on to make a statement, the above statement is nowhere in the conclusion presented in the blog.
The conclusion is even with the changes Oddysey bring there are still sufficient problems to make null sec mining not worthwhileIgnoring the colossal amount of assumption this blog was to rely on to make a statement, the above statement is nowhere in the conclusion presented in the blog.
Well if that is belief go back to Eve create a mining corp and try selling the idea to a null sec alliance. Most of them say sure "How much are you going to pay us for the privilege".
Another one with no null sec alliance experience I take it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The conclusion is even with the changes Oddysey bring there are still sufficient problems to make null sec mining not worthwhileIgnoring the colossal amount of assumption this blog was to rely on to make a statement, the above statement is nowhere in the conclusion presented in the blog.Well if that is belief go back to Eve create a mining corp and try selling the idea to a null sec alliance. Most of them say sure "How much are you going to pay us for the privilege".
Another one with no null sec alliance experience I take it.
That is exactly what Andius said he did:
I paid for a nearly private system with a station and tons of valuable ore.
So paying rent is supposedly giving you some kind of "street cred as a 0.0 PVPer".
Try defaulting on your monthly fee and holding onto that system. Hell, paying rent is no different then paying a ransom or a SAD offer to go about your business (with a bit less in your wallet).
Then some of your people have the gall to claim "millions for defense, but not one copper for tribute".
Paying rent is exactly that, it is tribute! What astounding hypocrisy!
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Goblin Squad Member
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hardly, rent is an agreement between the folks. He said, hey you guys arnt mining here, if i give you xxx isk will you let me have mining rights? And they said yes.
Tribute would be "pay us or we kill you". There is a difference. And sure if he defaulted on his payment and continues to mine and they nail him for it, thats find since he broke the contract, but thats different than robbing other people or making people pay ransom.
Its like trying to say that a land owner who charges hunters who want to hunt their land are holding the hunters ransom....right.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I paid for a nearly private system with a station and tons of valuable ore.So paying rent is supposedly giving you some kind of "street cred as a 0.0 PVPer".
Try defaulting on your monthly fee and holding onto that system. Hell, paying rent is no different then paying a ransom or a SAD offer to go about your business (with a bit less in your wallet).
Then some of your people have the gall to claim "millions for defense, but not one copper for tribute".
Paying rent is exactly that, it is tribute! What astounding hypocrisy!
Wow. First you defend scammers and admit to griefing then you make an outright lie. The mask is really coming off.
My only complaint is I had to switch to a combat ship to deal with rats since it was -0.9 Price I paid for a nearly private system with a station and tons of valuable ore.
I never paid a dime to live in 0.0. I was responcible for looking after myself and required to participate the the mandatory fleet actions. That's the price I paid.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The conclusion is even with the changes Oddysey bring there are still sufficient problems to make null sec mining not worthwhileIgnoring the colossal amount of assumption this blog was to rely on to make a statement, the above statement is nowhere in the conclusion presented in the blog.Well if that is belief go back to Eve create a mining corp and try selling the idea to a null sec alliance. Most of them say sure "How much are you going to pay us for the privilege".
Another one with no null sec alliance experience I take it.
The minerals are valuable enough that they can pay a rent that is worth the effort to collect, it seems.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Andius and Bluddwolf
You are both doing great jobs of discrediting each other, however I am still not convinced. Therefore, I award a divorce but deny alimony for either party.
I don't know, Bringslite. This seems like the kind of thing that would go viral as a Judge Judy video clip.
I paid for a nearly private system with a station and tons of valuable ore.
My only complaint is I had to switch to a combat ship to deal with rats since it was -0.9 Price I paid for a nearly private system with a station and tons of valuable ore.
I can just imagine her giving that look to her bailiff, as if to say "can you believe how stupid that was?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Andius and Bluddwolf
You are both doing great jobs of discrediting each other, however I am still not convinced. Therefore, I award a divorce but deny alimony for either party.
I don't know, Bringslite. This seems like the kind of thing that would go viral as a Judge Judy video clip.
I paid for a nearly private system with a station and tons of valuable ore.My only complaint is I had to switch to a combat ship to deal with rats since it was -0.9 Price I paid for a nearly private system with a station and tons of valuable ore.I can just imagine her giving that look to her bailiff, as if to say "can you believe how stupid that was?"
This battle is FAR older than the previous few comments.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Punctuation is your friend, but I misread the quote to mean he paid rent for the space. That is a very common way to gain access to 0.0 space that is behind an alliances NBSI curtain. It is in fact tribute, but if Andius was actually not paying rent then my statement was in error.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Punctuation is your friend, but I misread the quote to mean he paid rent for the space. That is a very common way to gain access to 0.0 space that is behind an alliances NBSI curtain. It is in fact tribute, but if Andius was actually not paying rent then my statement was in error.
I've said it before, and I meant it, I have a lot of respect for anyone who can publicly admit they were wrong, even if they do quaver a bit at the beginning or use formulations like "if Andius was actually..."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Punctuation is your friend, but I misread the quote to mean he paid rent for the space. That is a very common way to gain access to 0.0 space that is behind an alliances NBSI curtain. It is in fact tribute, but if Andius was actually not paying rent then my statement was in error.I've said it before, and I meant it, I have a lot of respect for anyone who can publicly admit they were wrong, even if they do quaver a bit at the beginning or use formulations like "if Andius was actually..."
Well let's be fair here, I did not start this tit for tat. I explained a tactic that was commonly use by ore thieves, and usually not to kill the mining ships but to scare them off from returning during the 15 minute aggro timer.
The assumptions that were made, that this was griefing, or used against noobs, was patently false and made without justification. First, Covetors or Retrievers were not mining barges piloted by "noobs". Lastly that it's so,e purpose was to piss someone off. No, there was actual profit in it and a bit if danger if they did return with PvP fit ships. The fact that they almost never did is not an indication of anything for sure. I generally assumed they just cut their losses.
Some of you are quick to jump to conclusions for some, and ignore the slights of others.
Please quote where I resorted to name calling.