If you have a wall in a room that is the length of the entire room (you can't move around the edges of the wall) that is moving the party of adventurers toward a 10' wide pit that is also the entire length of the room/wall;
How do you justify a reflex save to not fall into the pit? They could make a jump check to jump across the 10' X 40' long pit. They would have to jump 10' (a standing jump=acrobatics 20), but they wouldn't be able to stay on their side because the wall is moving them towards the pit and the pit is 10' wide and 40' long, so they're isn't anything to hold on to. The pit walls require a climb check of 20. Minor hand holds and cracks (like a brick wall).
Rules as is, no Reflex, although you might rule as DM that they can use their reflex for the jump if its better than their acrobatics...or something.
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A clever trap designer has constructed the wall to be 9'10" thick and when it reaches the far side it falls into the pit crushing all that were pushed before it. Rinse. Repeat.
As described, though, I would say Reflex Saves are only for circumstances in which you can reflexively save yourself from harm. This can sometimes imply thinking fast on your feet. So, this wall would have to be moving very fast or crossing a very short distance to engender a saving throw instead of emergency planning.
If the situation meets all those criteria...well...what options are left to the party for that save to matter? Cling to the pit ledge by their hands? Leap across and then try to use a weapon to anchor them enough to get a grip on the other side? Unless there is an actual "out" to be had...there is no saving throw.
Hm.
Flying PCs?
The PC could cling to the wall of the pit, or even to the underside of the mechanism using the "catching yourself while falling" rules from climb.
In that last case, I would definitely use the DC 20 reflex save as noted in the Acrobatics skill to even attempt the climb check to catch while falling. The latter DC would probably be clinging to a ceiling without handholds (technically impossible but I'd allow it with a DC 40 climb check).
Certainly not easy, but not impossible. As a player, I'd rather have the GM point to two relevant skill rule entries with tough DCs than tell me "tough luck, no save", even though they amount to the same thing. It's just good policy.
The less you exercise your right to unconditionally screw the players, the more shock value it retains when you do it.
Instant death with no chance of getting out of it is just bad policy for the game. As GM you control every situation. The only thing you don't control is the player's dice. Give them a chance, even if it is just 5% (nat 20) to get out of everything.
Otherwise why bother playing? The PCs will only live as long as you decide it.
Instant death with no chance of getting out of it is just bad policy for the game. As GM you control every situation. The only thing you don't control is the player's dice. Give them a chance, even if it is just 5% (nat 20) to get out of everything.
Otherwise why bother playing? The PCs will only live as long as you decide it.
Instant death isn't a problem if you give the players every opportunity to avoid and they still go in. Or if there is another way out. Like Indian Jones and temple of Doom when they are in room with spikes and lower ceiling and someone from out side had to let them out. In this case as GM I'd only let some of the party get trapped with certain death.
There should always be a way out where one doesn't rely on luck in my opinion.
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Watch out what you are asking for. This is the reason many people don't like traps at all. If you have instant death, no way out traps, then you are going to get the, "I tap every square 100 times with a 10' pole before I enter it" types of games. If there is that much danger from the floor/wall in your world, than the PCs are going to be more worried about them than the creatures or NPCs that make the story.
Your game will revert to, "I throw a 200 lbs. sack of potatoes in the square in front of me" for every action.
Wouldn't you do something like that if walking down the hall was more likely to kill you than an encounter with a dragon?
I know I would.
What’s the save for “rocks fall, everyone dies”?
The PC’s deity saves them. They find that crevice in the wall no one noticed. The trap fails at the last moment.
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Rules as is, no Reflex
Rules as-is you always receive a Reflex save.
Even inanimate objects receive a Reflex save to avoid AoE effects.
Rules as is, no ReflexRules as-is you always receive a Reflex save.
Even inanimate objects receive a Reflex save to avoid AoE effects.
There are a few things that don't allow a save in the rules.
It even makes sense/is fair, very very rarely.
Almost every combat action in the game has a random chance. Some spells have saves. Some have attack rolls. And some even have both. There are a small few that have auto hit and no save. Magic Missile is the only one I can think of right now.
That randomness is what makes it a game. If there is no randomness, it is just your story.
And yet, there are none as far as I know that are instant kill with no save/no-hit, on an entire room.
That is not fun.
Okay lots of very good suggestions.."always allow some type of save". The adventuring party aren't even close to dying if they fall into the pit because they're 7-8 level characters. I wasn't looking for a way to kill of my player's characters. but simply looking for an exciting, non-clique trap(s). Since, I'm a new GM I was wondering of there are situation in which a reflex save doesn't make sense?
I agree and am very big on making situations and circumstances always fair, so I will give a random chance for a reflex save.
In general, a stand-alone trap is one of the hardest classic dungeon tropes to pull off well. It only works if it has meaningful consequences. Usually, this is not HP damage, because that is going to be dealt with as soon as the players have a chance — and that's how it should be. It's a stupid party that pushes forward with significant HP loss. HP damage traps are an interesting way to set up an ambush for an enemy NPC, but that's not really a "stand alone" trap.
Poisons, disease, curses, and other afflictions that are slightly harder to cure away instantly make for better consequences of a stand-alone trap. If you haven't considered the question "why this trap here?" before placing it, you are likely to be disappointed with the outcome.
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If you have a wall in a room that is the length of the entire room (you can't move around the edges of the wall) that is moving the party of adventurers toward a 10' wide pit that is also the entire length of the room/wall;
How do you justify a reflex save to not fall into the pit? They could make a jump check to jump across the 10' X 40' long pit. They would have to jump 10' (a standing jump=acrobatics 20), but they wouldn't be able to stay on their side because the wall is moving them towards the pit and the pit is 10' wide and 40' long, so they're isn't anything to hold on to. The pit walls require a climb check of 20. Minor hand holds and cracks (like a brick wall).
There are traps that make attack rolls rather than calling for saving throws, so why not assign the wall a CMB and have it perform a bull rush maneuver every round? That gives strong characters a chance to hold it back while others work on stopping it.
In general, a stand-alone trap is one of the hardest classic dungeon tropes to pull off well. It only works if it has meaningful consequences. Usually, this is not HP damage, because that is going to be dealt with as soon as the players have a chance — and that's how it should be. It's a stupid party that pushes forward with significant HP loss. HP damage traps are an interesting way to set up an ambush for an enemy NPC, but that's not really a "stand alone" trap.
Poisons, disease, curses, and other afflictions that are slightly harder to cure away instantly make for better consequences of a stand-alone trap. If you haven't considered the question "why this trap here?" before placing it, you are likely to be disappointed with the outcome.
@Evil Lincoln,
As a matter of a "Plan B," (meaningful consequences) I think we're thinking on the same level..When the party falls into the pit I have the option of a large Ochre Jelly waiting on them. If I determine that the party has handled the trap well and it's somewhat boring them then the Ochre Jelly shows up.To remind everyone, I want a challenging trap but not a trap that needlessly kills half the party off. this is only one room of 20 in this dwarven stronghold.
@Sober, the wall does (see above) have a 20 strength check. Is this what you were looking for?
@Lincoln Hills, the way the "dungeon" is set up it's only one level that is divided by a large nature outdoor chasm, so there aren't any levels.
@RYNJIN..."GASP! It's my lost twin! Breaks down and cries for joy!"
Someone commented about traps need to have a purpose (couldn't relocate who said that).
Last point, this "first section" before the chasm is the dwarven stronghold that is set up to eliminate any infiltrating force (the purpose for all the traps/monsters). The "second section" divided by the chasm and invisible bridge is the living quarters for the dwarves.