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Ugh. Another noob question:
Can someone explain Skill points (at level 1) for me? It's based on your class and Int modifier, right? I get confused when the CRB says "you can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice."
But doesn't everyone have only one Hit Die?
The way I initially understood it awhile ago, was that you can't have more points in a skill than your current class level. And I thought that the Hit Dice only came into play when determining how much HP a character gains after leveling up?
You have it right. For player characters and NPCs their hit die = total class levels. There are some exceptions when it comes to monsterous races that have more than 1 hit die+ class levels, but the basics are: total levels =HD
So the maximum rank you can have in a skill is to your total HD - be it monster HD and skills for creatures or total HD from levels for Player Characters.
Once you allocated skill points to the skill you want the PC/NPC/Monster to have, you then apply any other modifiers.
Every skill has an attribute which modifies it, in additions both classes and creature types may assign a class/type modifier. If a skill point is allocated to any of the skills on that list, that skill gets an additional +3 modifier in addition to any other modifiers.
So lets say you have a starting Human Rogue at level 1. He has 8 skill points to start, but he also has an INT score of 13(+1), which is a 1 modifier. So he gets 8+1 skill levels at level 1. Humans also get an additional skill rank at level 1 and every other level thereafter.
So our starting Rogue gets 8 sp +1 (INT) and +1 (Race) for a total of 10 skill points at level 1.
The list of class skills is given at the beginning of each class entry.
If you put at least 1 skill rank in a skill that is on that list, you get an additional +3 on that skill score total. Creature types work in a similar fashion -ex Dragon type has a list of skills which are also considered class skills - so when you are putting together a dragon NPC (one they will fight or befriend) you will use that list as a reference to figure out which skills go at rank + stat bonus, and which skills go at Rank+ stat bonus + 3 class bonus.
Back to the Rogue - he cannot put more that 1 rank in any skill at this time since he is capped by his HD, which is currently 1 (level 1). So he will have 10 skills, each at a rank of 1 since he wants to allocate all his skill points when he first makes his character. In this regard, we can see how the Rogue is the most widely skilled class in the game: he has the most skill points to spread around, even if his skill totals are not high.
One of his skills he decides to put a rank in is Stealth (he wants to be a sneaky Rogue after all). So Stealth is at Rank 1 (the Base) +3 (its a class Skill) and +4 (DEX) - [He has a DEX of 18 (+4)], for a total Stealth of +8. Whenever he makes a Stealth roll he rolls the d20 and adds +8 to the roll, to establish how hard it is to see him when he is hiding.
So even though our level 1 Rogue was capped a 1 skill rank at level 1, he gets some bonuses because his Stealth skill is class skill for him and he put a rank in it, and since it's based off of his classes prime attribute which is DEX (and he has an 18) he gets a total of +8 - which is pretty far away from the 1 point he put in. Stealth Rank 1 +3 class +4 DEX = +8.
Lets take our same level 1 Rogue and add in another skill. Let's say the player envisions his character as a competent rider, so he wants to be able to try to do some tricks or even fight from horseback.
Ride is not one of his class skills: So he puts in 1 skill rank (his max at level 1) and he adds the Skills stat modifier (uses DEX) for his total. His Ride Skill is at 5 (1 rank +4 for DEX).
So even though his Ride score isn't as high as his Stealth score, a score of 5 in a skill at level 1 isn't bad (his DEX really helped on that skill).
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First of all modules do not usually take one session, they take 2 or 3.Not all of them. And Paizo isn't the only company that makes adventures for Pathfinder.Which of them? The only ones i have played and/or read that take one session (even if you take character creation out of the equation) are we be goblins and dawn of the scarlet sun.
Also i haven't read or played any non-paizo modules, heck i haven't played or read any non-PF paizo modules, so i don't know how long those modules would take.
Well, modules/adventures from other publishers usually don't have a pre-set page count that the author must fit them into like the Paizo stuff, so they can vary to anywhere between a few pages that would take maybe an hour or so of playtime, to massive epic adventures like the Slumbering Tsar Saga, which is ~950 pages and would take many months to play through.
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Thanks so much for the explanation!
Makes much more sense now! Unfortunately, now I have another question... Haha
How the heck do you level-up a character?! I don't think there's a section in the book about how to level-up. I know how to do the hit points and the skill points, but what about the ability scores? I know there's that page in the CRB on page 30, so I guess you get a +1 to one ability score every fifth level? But then doesn't that mean your max ability score can only be 23 max?
There is a master chart on page 30 - this is your core index for level progression - and it gets a little tricky here.
Characters have two progression tracks. There is a master track on page 30 in the CRB, and then a progression chart tied to the level of the character in his respective class.
So a 5th level fighter/3rd level rogue checks the table on page 30 (chart 3-1) gives the guy everything for an 8th level character:
4 total feats
2 different attribute raises.
Each of these things are given at their appropriate level based on experience points earned.
So our 5/3 fighter/rogue also progresses on his class charts.
As a 5th level fighter he gets:
+5 BAB, +4 to Fort, +1 Reflex, +1 Will saves, 5d10 hp + CON MOD (x5), 3 bonus feats, Armor Training 1, Weapon Training 1 and Bravery +1. And 10 SP+ INT MOD (x5).
3rd level Rogue:
+2 BAB, +1 to Fort, +3 Reflex, +1 Will saves, 3d8 hp + CON MOD(x3),Sneak attack +2d6, trapfinding, Evasion and 1 rogue talent. And 24 SP + INT MOD (x3).
These numbers and values all stack on them selves.
Each time he gains a level, in fighter or rogue - he then gets the abilities of that class for that level. An when this character gets the xp to advance - he picks which class level he wants to take.
So our fighter/rogue example accumulates 115001 xp, enough to advance from 8th level to 9th level. He can take another level in Fighter (and be level 6 in that class) or another level in Rogue (and be 4th level in that class) or he can take a level 1 in a whole brand new class.
Core level features and class level features are assigned when the character goes up in a level (when he has enough xp).
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This is correct- the listing is for a 5th level fighter I used in an example with the expressed total of 5 levels = 5d10. Sort of like a compilation of all the abilities for those 5 levels.
So a fighter with CON 16(+3) at level 1 would have 1d10+3 hit points for that level, correct?
That same Fighter at 5th level would have 5d10+15 hp total, (gaining 1d10+3 per level he goes up) - which is equal to 5d10 hp + CON MOD (x5).
When I say CON MOD here - I am just listing a generic unexpressed value because I don't know what this specific fighters con mod is. Think of it like a formula where you need to plug in some variables. So in this case a generic 5th level Fighter has 5d10+CON mod (x5). If I know his CON MOD (Say CON 16 [+3])it would read 5d10+15.
Understand?
So our same fighter at level 1 has 1d10+3 hp, or 1d10 + Con Mod (X1)
at level 2 his total hit points/hd would be 2d10+6 (total) or 2d10+Con Mod (x2) because he gained another 1d10+3 hp when he hit second level.
I am listing HD,HPs and CON and Skill points as accumulated totals for a character that is higher than level 1.
So a 5th level fighter with 16 CON (say you are making a higher level Bandit warlord to challenge your players) would have a total of 5d10+15 which is the same as 5d10 + CON MOD x5 - the times 5 is because he gets the con bonus at each level (and he has 5 levels).
Sorry about the confusion. You are looking at things from a CharGen level 1 perspective, and I threw in higher level (higher that 1) character creation formulas.
As a DM, you will often create characters that are higher than level 1, so you total up ALL the level values and if you roll for hit points you roll just once. Like the guy just "sprang" into existence as a 5th level fighter sent out as a challenge to your 2nd level PCs.
Just trying to show how all these values stack up.
Each time a character goes up a level, they get those new values of that are listed at that next level. Increased HD, sometimes increased saves, new class abilities, and so on. When making someone with character levels higher that 1 though (as a DM) you need to stack all those levels together and plug in all the variables and make your rolls, once.
It's almost like making a 1st level character - you pick all the feats, skills, roll hit points - but you are adding up more than 1 levels worth of values to make a higher level foe. You still only roll one time for hp once you have the total levels of your NPC picked out, your overall values are just going to be higher.
So lets say you wanted to create a higher level challenge for the players - back to our 5th level Fighter, 3rd level Rogue bad guy.
+5 BAB, +4 to Fort, +1 Reflex, +1 Will saves, 5d10 hp + CON MOD (x5), 3 bonus feats, Armor Training 1, Weapon Training 1 and Bravery +1. And 10 SP+ INT MOD (x5).
As a 3rd level Rogue:
+2 BAB, +1 to Fort, +3 Reflex, +1 Will saves, 3d8 hp + CON MOD(x3), And 24 SP + INT MOD (x3).
You then combine all these values because he is both a 5th level fighter and 3rd level rogue (on top of getting the generic 8th level abilities).
So our 8th level NPC looks like this:
(assuming STR 18, DEX 15, CON 12, INT 8, WIS 13, CHA 10)
Base Values (combined):
+7 BAB, +5 Fort, +4 Reflex, +2 Will saves, 5d10+3d8+8(CON MOD)+4 extra hp for Favored Class (FIGHTER, gives +1 hp or 1 sp per level)
For a total of 8HD
3 Bonus Combat Fighter Feats, Armor Training 1, Weapon Training 1, Bravery +1, Sneak attack +2d6, trapfinding, Evasion and 1 rogue talent.
Generic Level 8 bonuses: 4 Feats,and two stat raises (one at 4th and one at 8th - I raised his STR and DEX 1 point each as he leveled up).
10SP (from fighter, 2 per level, -1 for low INT. Get 1 extra sp per level for being human)and another 8 per level of Rogue (Base 8 per level, -1 for low INT but gained 1 per level for race) for 24 more points = 34 Skill points in total.
Modified Values (stat mods) (combined) - without picking actual skills or feats:
+7/+2 BAB, +6 Fort, +6 Reflex, +3 Will saves, HP: 58 (average HP)/8HD
3 Bonus Combat Fighter Feats, Armor Training 1, Weapon Training 1, Bravery +1, Sneak attack +2d6, trapfinding, Evasion and 1 rogue talent.
Generic Level 8 bonuses: 4 Feats,and two stat raises
34 Skill points in total.
That +7/+2 BAB is a total of his 5th level level Fighter BAB, and 3rd level Rogue BAB. If he is using a melee weapon modified by STR, that his total to hit would be +11/+6. If he was using a DEX weapon his to-hit values would look like +9/+4. That second to-hit value is used when getting his second attack in a round when using a full round action to attack.
I know this is overwhelming, but break it apart and I can explain any of this step by step.
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@Trinite, do you think you can chime in a little more on how mapless combat works? I know for now my friends would like to use a grid and minis, but as I mentioned earlier, I feel like it sorta takes you out of the game a little bit. Personally, I would like to have more of a open combat system, one that doesn't involve so many detailed combat mechanics. Sort of like, if you want to do it and it's reasonable, you can.
Sure! I basically run combat according to the normal Pathfinder rules, with normal limits on movement and actions and stuff, but I basically just imagine distances between things and how the various combatants are arranged. I try to describe this verbally to my players with as much detail as I can. Then they tell me what their characters are doing. If they've misunderstood me and try to do something they can't, I'll explain it to them.
As I said, running combat this way either requires players with a lot of expertise, or else players with a lot of trust in me as a GM. :) I would recommend that you start out using a grid -- just a simple, plain battle mat will do fine. I made my own out of poster board with markers.
My *biggest* piece of advice is: don't worry about making mistakes! Nobody is grading you on following the rules. Make sure your players have fun, and you'll gradually gain a greater understanding of the system through experience.
I've heard mixed feelings on what to do for a new GM. been told AP aren't good starters, but I get the important things.
I honestly think run a one shot (senerio) or just make a few level one encounters that atleast level up, or just to get the feel of GMing.
Hey I was just wondering something... Are you guys enjoying all the complexity of pathfinder so far? I like it because it offers so many options, but it honestly took my group two years to get to a point where we don't spend more time looking up rules then actually playing. A lot of people who play this game came to it from other similar games (like d&d 3rd edition and 3.5) so it's familiar territory, but it was hard for me jumping right into the DM seat. I played earlier editions of d&d back in the day but I missed the whole D20 WotC era.
I'm getting fairly comfortable now, Lincoln Hills, but it has taken me a while. I was just imagining though, if I had such a hard time walking into Pathfinder after missing the whole WotC era, how much harder is it going to be for this guy (the OP) to pick up this 300+ page rulebook and start GM'ing Pathfinder when he has never even played a roleplaying game in his life?
Don't get me wrong, of course it's possible, especially if he and his players are excited and motivated. I just wanted to at least point out that there are other options out there that can have someone new to gaming rolling dice and roleplaying much faster.
*crickets*
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Hey I was just wondering something... Are you guys enjoying all the complexity of pathfinder so far? I like it because it offers so many options, but it honestly took my group two years to get to a point where we don't spend more time looking up rules then actually playing. A lot of people who play this game came to it from other similar games (like d&d 3rd edition and 3.5) so it's familiar territory, but it was hard for me jumping right into the DM seat. I played earlier editions of d&d back in the day but I missed the whole D20 WotC era.
I actually don't like the complexity - to clarify. I don't like the level of complexity and detail to things that I think are detrimental in the game.
Board game style combat focus, feats (not-balances, redundant, superfluous, etc).
I would like less focus on detailed combat rules (which are not simulationist) and more focus on smoother game play. If the game was actually simulationist, that is - it focused on weapon vs. armor types, weapon and action speeds, situational initiative, combat tied closer to reality vs gamest (conditions tied to injury and hp loss vs. spells or powers) to name a few - then I would love the detail.
But the game is a pile of rules that are built on gamist precepts. Sort a jumble of rules for an abstract combat game that does not attempt to reflect reality.
Anyway - I prefer 1st or 2nd ed to 3rd/PF since the focus was more on playing the game and less on character builds, but that's my preference from years of gaming. Obviously people like the level of complexity as it exist in the game or it wouldn't be so popular.
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I go back and forth too. Obviously I like the complexity somewhat as evidenced by the fact that PF is the system I am still using. But for some of what I want out of a game it feels like I'm using a screwdriver to hammer in nails.
Can I say thank you to everyone on this thread. I have spent far too much time on a couple of threads about a recent FAQ that was beginning to make me not think well about people who play Pathfinder. Your back and forth suggestions and willingness to help someone new was just the prescription I needed.
My 2cents for nOah: do not be worried about screwing up the rules. If you are unclear how something should work, go with whatever seems like the most fun. After the session, check back on the rule and figure it out. Next session explain that you screwed up the ruling and how it is supposed to work. Most importantly, make sure y'all have fun.
True story about me: I started with dungeons and dragons with 1st edition in 1977. I was 8 years old and I played with three friends my age. It took me over a year before I understood how to give experience points. Characters stayed 1st level with 8hps but had all kinds of magic items and artifacts. Lol. Mostly we liked looking at the Monster Manual.
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Hey guys! Update on the first session: It went better than I thought, even though parts of it were pretty rough. It was a ton of fun, even though I had to bend the rules and fudge the numbers ... *A LOT*.
I do have a list of questions to ask though!
1) One player is always complaining about wanting to switch skills because the other two players already have higher points in said skills. For instance, he wanted to "untrain" perception because the druid in our group had a much higher bonus to it. How do you handle that? He keeps wanting to change his stuff because he feels like "if all three players in the party have perception, then the party isn't balanced". I keep trying to tell him to not worry about what they have, and to focus on his character and what his character would have, but he's a power-gamer who only cares about winning and being the best. How do I approach/handle the situation?
I can see his point to his reasoning, and you should try also (even if you don't agree with it). Some people look at the group as an optimized unit, with little overlay. with regard to a few skills I don't think it's a bad way to go. Perception though is a very basic skill, something that everyone in the group should ideally have. Here are a few arguments to support individual perception skill investments:
- You (Noah the DM) will roll secret perception checks for each individual to see if they notice something, the higher everyone in this skill the greater chance that someone in the team will notice it.
- Self reliance + party contribution. Now I don't advocate separating a group of players for a novice DM, but there may be times when party members are injured, out of it, or even during the nightly watch when its that PCs turn to post guard. That player should not want anyone or anything to get the jump on him (and his sleeping team mates).
When it comes to other skills I sort of agree with your power gamer. Everyone wants to have a special roll, so I don't think you need three players with Disable Device, Perception though is much more raw and basic to group survival. So for the sake of this argument it depends on the skill in question, and its importance to the team.
2) When a players enter a new room, there is usually some flavor text that is read out loud to them to describe it. However, after the flavor text is over, there is usually some more details that are laid out in text for the DM to know. My question is: how are the players supposed to know those kinds of details? Do they have to ask about it? Make a check?
They can describe their actions to move around the room or look from afar - basic stuff should be revealed as they ask questions. But things that are not obvious, minor in detailed, won't be noticed unless examined, etc - all go back to that Perception skill. Generous DMs may just reward smart players with answers, but since things in the game run like an abstraction - some interactions need to be governed by skill checks. Perception for the non-obvious attempts to examine.
2a) When players enter a room and the DM needs to make a Perception check without them knowing, should he make a perception check for all the players? or just one in particular? For instance, the 3 PCs entered the pit trap room in Crypt of the Everflame. None of them asked to look around to find out what they saw, so I made secret perception checks and only one person passed, so I just said that "X sees Y over there". Is there a method to doing something like this?
Sure, some of their passive skills (what we'll call them for now) should be written on your cheat sheet or laptop. If you want perception to be a valuable skill, you need to make a check for each player. And if you want to go one further, when say one player makes their check - take him or her aside and explain what they see. When your player who dislikes perception doesn't make his perception roll (since its low) then he gets the info second hand after you explain it to the player who does make their roll. The reward for skill investment is direct, privileged information to the player who made the investment. By making one general roll, or by rolling for all three and then explaining it to all of them at the same time, you are sort of diminishing (IMO) that skill investment made by that one player.
So three players = three rolls, usually secret (DM rolls). I would also consider only divulging info to those make their rolls. If they all make it (at the same level) then you can just tell all of them what they see. But if a guy invests in information gathering type skills (the Rogue/Face type character) then he should get his info in private. That is reward. Hopefully he will communicate that to his group (that can be another problem).
3) Regarding saving throws: when should I make them for the monsters? For example, if a Ranger shot her longbow at an orc, does the orc always make a Fort save? If the cleric channels positive energy towards skeletons, do they make a Will save? I kinda ignored a lot of the saving throws for the most part, as I wasn't confident in what I was doing (my fault though because I was horribly unprepared).
That's all I'll ask for now, as I don't want to burden you all ;)
No fort save for the arrow, that is the ranger just rolling a D20 attack roll (plus mods) to beat the Orcs AC (target number the ranger needs to match or exceed to hit). If the arrow had poison on it, and the orc was hit and took damage, then he would probably need to make a Fort save vs the poison. No Fort saves for normal attacks.
On Channel Energy:
Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the cleric’s level + the cleric's Charisma modifier.
But yeah, it was *tons* of fun, and I can FINALLY check that off my bucket-list (play/DM a D&D/Pathfinder style game). After a good 4-5 hour session, we were only able to get through the first floor of the crypt. I'm not sure if that's a good time or a bad time haha.
If they started in town and then made it to the dungeon and cleared the first level, that is very good time. Did they do any detailed overland travel? It would have taken me a few sessions to get that far - but my players would have wandered around town a bit, and I would have played out the short trip to the Crypt (to try and build it up a little). It sounds like you and your players had a good time playing, and that is the MOST IMPORTANT THING.
You have already identified one problem you had - being unprepared. My advice to you on that - cover the basics. Learn the skills inside out (that's their main interaction with the world - with you the DM), and look at each of your players classes and really understand their abilities and how they work. You can memorize other classes abilities as they are needed (NPCs, new characters, you run the game more).
Thanks for reporting in, and no - you are not bothering anyone here. I wish I had the resources available now then was out there when I was 10 trying to figure out Basic D&D and the 1st edition Dungeon Masters Guide.
You have the resources here - ask away. If I may presume - I say this on behalf of all the DMs who have chimed in on this thread.
Here you go right from the PFSRD.
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn (see FAQ below for more information.)
FAQ/Errata
When you cast a spell that allows you to make a ranged touch attack (such as scorching ray), and an enemy is within reach, do you provoke two attacks of opportunity?
Yes, you provoke two attacks of opportunity: one for casting the spell and one for making a ranged attack, since these are two separate events. (Note that at spell that fires multiple simultaneous rays, such as scorching ray, only provokes one AOO for making the ranged attack instead of one AOO for each ranged attack. It still provokes for casting the spell.
No.
You can have an alchemist throwing bombs (he's not casting the spell) and he's targeting Touch AC. This is called a Thrown Splash Weapon.
You can also be a gunslinger who targets an opponents Touch AC.
Range and Penetration: Armor, whether manufactured or natural, provides little protection against the force of a bullet at short range.
Early Firearms: When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full range increment. Unlike other projectile weapons, early firearms have a maximum range of five range increments.
Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms resolve their attacks against touch AC when the target is within the first five range increments, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full-range increment. Advanced firearms have a maximum range of 10 range increments.
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My *main* issue right now is this: Do I start with a published adventure or do I make my own?
WE BE GOBLINS is a great place to start, and it's free. I've GM'd it a bunch of times and each time it gets more fun. Before each We Be Goblin's session, I listen to Beer & Battle's We Be Goblins podcast on my ipod to get pumped. That GM is amazing!
No, a bow is against their Normal AC as a normal ranged attack.
Here's another discussion very similar to what you are asking about here held almost exactly a year ago talking about touch attacks, just posting it so you can read through it and see what the community said to make things easier.
Nope, a longbow would be an attack roll against normal AC.
Here's the way I think about it. "Touch Attacks" are attacks that only need to come into contact with the creature you are targetting in order to take effect.
When you don't need to pierce their armor (or hide or carapace or whatever may be protecting them), then it's a touch attack. The attack just needs to touch them to connect.
Edit: Holy Ninja'd!
Don't think of these attacks as "ranged touch" "attacks", but as "ranged" "touch attacks." Things like rays and bolts of fire that will hurt you right through your armor attack your touch AC, but they do it at range. Does that help?This does make a little more sense to me, thanks. I'm thinking of it like, if the ability or spell can hurt you without needing to penetrate your armor, then it can be classified as a touch attack. If said touch attack can be done from a distance, it's a ranged touch attack. Is that fair to say? Or is that a little too general?
Thank you Lincoln Hills and ub3r_n3rd, you've both been very helpful.
Yep, that's the way I think of it too. It's basically things that can hurt you that your armor can't protect against as the touch attacks, some can be done at a range and others are up in melee (think bullets that shred through armor, spells that bypass armor, and splash damage that hits everywhere). Everything else is a normal attack against normal AC think swords and arrows (of course there are always modifiers to these, but this is a general rule).
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So are all ranged touch attacks spells? I guess I'm just having a hard time understanding the idea of a ranged-touch attack.
I think it's the wording that is confusing me. =/
Ranged touch attacks are just a type of attack.
So attack types:
Melee
Ranged
Combat maneuvers (which are similar to melee attacks - they just factor different numbers for the to hit and the targets defense)
Touch Attacks:
-Melee Touch
-Ranged Touch
The problem n0ah is the wording. So for the first part of my post our I will just drop the ranged part and call it "Touch" attacks.
Touch attacks are a type of attack that doesn't care about the armor the target is wearing - you just have to barely hit it, and they are hit. So like Uber referenced:
Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus.
So for any kind of touch attack (there are two types: melee/standard and ranged) you get to ignore the guys shield, his plate, thick scales -whatever. You are just trying to make contact for an effect, so it's as if those things are not even there to protect the defender.
you do count:
His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
You count those because Armor Class is a game abstraction. It determines how hard it is to hit a target. In this case - the targets Dex bonus, size and deflection (which is a magical type of defense bonus) all make him harder to hit/touch/contact.
The best way to think of touch attack is that you are just trying to touch the guy for effect. Here are some examples for (hopefully) clarity:
His plate and his shield are ignored because they do not provide any kind of defense to the touch aspect of Shocking Grasp.
Casting the Shocking Grasp leaves our caster open to Attacks of Opportunity the round he casts the spell (if anyone is standing next to him when he tries), but attacking with the Shocking Grasp is like the attack with the short sword and treated as an armed melee attack (so no Attack of Opportunity on our guy using Shocking Grasp by his target). The big difference - plate and shield are ignored as defenses against that spell (and any effect or spell that is considered "touch").
And to answer you question directly - no. Some spells that generate a physical energy are considered touch attacks (Ranged or Melee) - Scorching Ray (Ranged Touch), Chill Touch (Melee Touch), but most spells generate an effect which the targets must save against. If can be a little confusing when you have Magic Missile (which you don't need to roll for) and Acid Arrow (Ranged Touch attack). Just read each spell and try to figure out what rules it follows.
But there are some other abilities that characters or creatures can use that are considered "touch" type of attacks. So touch attacks are not all spells. If you go through the Bestiary you may find a few creatures that have a touch type of attack in the attack options. Here is a sample of one:
So in this case the filament doesn’t do any damage, but its very sticky – hence the "touch" aspect. It just needs to "touch" the guys armor or shield or body for the sticky ensnaring effect to take place. Logically, the filament is sort of like a melee attack since it's part of the body of the cave fisher - but in PF, the long strand has some extensive reach so it is considered a ranged type of attack, that is also considered a touch attack.
Think of the "touch" part first when you want to know what rules govern how it’s rolled for (to hit and defenses).
The melee and ranged part just factor in on: distance, and applicable combat modifiers.
A wizard casting Shocking Grasp in melee has a decent chance to hit his target, even if he is wearing heavy armor – because that armor doesn’t count. The risk for the caster is that he is in melee range and will probably get hit back.
Spells that count as ranged touch attacks are considerably less risky for the caster – he is far away, can do some damage or effect, but he still has to roll a to-hit dice, so he still can miss.
I’m sorry this is confusing; I hope this clears it up a little for you.
Edit:Ninja'd by Uber and Grimmy, and without needing to use a wall of text!
n0ah, it's also worth it to get your head around the concept of "flat-footed AC" now that you understand "Touch AC"
Your full AC is considering your protection from things like armor and shields, as well as your ability to evade the attack (dexterity bonus, dodge bonus). All those things and sometimes more are factored into your AC score.
So Touch AC and Flat-Footed AC exist for when some of those things don't apply.
It's a bit faster then doing all the math every time you resolve attacks that don't need to pierce armor, or attacks that catch your opponent off guard (or restrained). Just compare the attack roll to Touch AC or Flat-footed AC and you can see if it hits, without reverse engineering the full AC score to factor out whichever bonuses do not apply against that particular attack.
See what I mean?
good stuff
Examples and specifics are always worth it too ;)
Glad to help out n0ah! Let us know if we can be of any more help and have fun with your game on Sunday!
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Yes, keep us posted.
Keep reading the module and really absorb and imagine the next areas they are going to cover in your next session. You have a pretty good idea on pacing, so you should know how far they should get.
BTW - how are you handling the mapping for the module; are you drawing it out for them as the go, just describing it or having the players draw it or something else?
I actually purchased a big chessex gamemat (the one with 1" squares on one side and hexes on the other side) and have been drawing stuff out for them (only the crypt stuff though, everything else was freestyled).
My group has one of those as well. Just remember to always use WET erase markers on it and not dry erase and especially not permanent! When it gets kind of stained, use some windex on it and the marks will magically be removed. We also use gaming paper.
Although that reminds me, if using a mat, do you recommend drawing out the entire area before hand? Or drawing it out as they see it? Because I drew everything out before hand to save time, but then I feel like they sorta meta game a little bit ("Well, we haven't gone to that room over there yet..")
The gaming paper is what I like to use personally if I want to set up a dungeon crawl and not have my players metagame, then I can draw everything out beforehand and then lay down the new rooms as needed and they are none the wiser. The other thing you can do is grab some printer paper and just lay it over the undiscovered areas as they explore remove it and show what the battlemat has underneath it.
The first session also made me realize how important it is to be organized with initiative and what not, so for our second session I actually made a bunch of index cards: 1 for each PC and one for each creature they'll be facing. That way once initiative is figured out I can just reorder the cards and go through them one at a time until combat is finished.
What my group does/uses for initiative is the Combat Pad, but you could also use an app on a smartphone or tablet to do the same thing. With the combat pad we swap it back and forth every session and have one of the players keep track of the initiative. We always say X is up and Y is on deck so that everyone knows when their turn is and who is up next. It makes combats flow more smoothly.
And while I'm at it, how do you suggest keeping track of the PCs skills? Do you just have copies of their character sheet? Or do you just write down the most commonly used ones for reference?
I have all my players put their PC sheets in a drop-box folder and I just pull them up to look them over after every session. My group are veteran players so I don't have to worry too much about anything that they do as they all know the rules. There are also quick reference sheets that you can use like this which keeps track of the stats that are the only real concern for a GM.
Oh! And when the module mentions something like "A DC 15 Knowledge (nature) check reveals etc..." How would that play out? Like, what if the PC wanted to find out that information, but specifically asked "Can I make a perception check to see if ..."? Or is it okay to tell them "Make a Knowledge (nature) check". This happened a couple times in our first session, where they were trying to use a different skill to find out information that would normally be known via a different skill.
What that means is that you ask if anyone has that skill or if someone asks if they can use knowledge nature and rolls their d20+skill modifier and it is 15 or better then you read the relevant information.
EXAMPLE: Knowledge Nature DC 15 reveals that the footprints are those of a brown bear.
DC 20 reveals that the bear weighs approximately 500 lbs and has a limp in the left foot.
DC 25 reveals that the bear ate berries from the kickadventuererbutts tree recently and the tracks are about 2 hours old.
Whew okay. Got those questions out of the way. :)
Good questions! Keep em coming, the community is always very helpful :)
It depends on what skills they want to use.
If a player asked me to use a perception check, I'd say they see the footprints especially if they are really visible. Perception is more to spot hidden things or hear something and if the prints aren't hidden there is no need to roll the check for perception.
I always allow them other checks so for example the Knowledge (Nature), I would also probably give them a chance to know stuff with Survival since this talks about tracks. Look at the full list of skills descriptions here.
So to answer your question especially as a new GM, "Yes" is always a good thing. I'll allow everyone to roll their checks whether it was Knowledge Nature and/or Survival on this one.
They way I do it: They see the tracks and talk about it at the table a bit in RP. Then someone asks, "Can I use my survival to figure out what kind of tracks these are?" I say, "Yes that will tell you, but anyone who has knowledge nature would know as well. I can take individual rolls or you guys can try to figure it out together using the aid another to add in bonuses."
Usually the one with the highest number in one of those skills rolls and the others who are trained will roll to aid to try to grant the +2 per person who rolled with their mods above the 10.
You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check. (You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone. The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.
Example:
DC 15 Knowledge (Nature) - The Ranger has the skill trained as a class skill has 1 rank in it and has a +6 to it, the barbarian has the skill as well but only 3 ranks in it. The barbarian rolls d20 gets an 8 + 3 = 11 so he is able to add +2 to the assistance of the Ranger. The Ranger rolls his d20 gets a 7 + his 6 modifier = 13, but wait! The Barbarian aided him for the added +2 now they have the 15 DC and figure it out.
Basically they are talking it over and figuring it out.
Edited to clarify.
Oh no problem, I'm always looking for stuff to make my life easier as a GM too! There are so many tools out there that are free which others develop and things I do myself to speed up the game.
Don't get caught up in what the rules say too much, you need to always remember Rule 0 as the GM insomuch that even if you are making things up, do so fairly and with the knowledge you have at hand.
I think if you feel confident enough about running the game smoothly, nothing beats drawing the map room by room as they discover it. But that is one more thing to do during the game, when you have a lot to keep track of as it is. So sometimes I draw something in advance on gaming paper. This makes more sense when the PC's have found a map in-game of the area they are going to explore. Then it doesnt feel so metagamey. Or you can cover parts up with more paper or card stock. It's a case by case thing.
Sometimes if we are doing an old school style dungeon crawl, I use the smaller chessex map and I only draw oddly shaped rooms or encounter areas. The rest of the exploration is done without mini's or grid, and it is up to the party whether they want to map or not, using graph paper :) This is not a very popular play style any more from what I gather on these boards but my group is up for it sometimes.