You can take EK levels to qualify for the ranks now, so you basically need 1 martial 1 caster and up to 3 EK works
(although going for 2 fighter + 2 EK means you qualify for weapon spec, and 2 paladin for CHA->Saves and LoH)
The Trickery domain to get a 2nd level arcane SLA.
An Inquisition gets you access to Augury, a 2nd level divine SLA.
This seems like a very solid early entry for MT, and it is totally race-agnostic.
(it just needs a God that grants Trickery, the Inquisitions don't seem God-specific)Hell, you could even take Cleric1 to get the above, and then go Oracle/Sorceror if you wanted, and still do great.
Cleric/EmpyrealSorc1/MT is probably best to focus on one stat, or Cleric/Wizard/MT if you don't mind splitting INT/WIS.
QUESTION: When PrCs have skill rank or feat pre-reqs, can you spend the normal feat gained with level up, e.g. level 3, and then qualify to take that PrC at level 3? the feat has nothing to do with the class, it's based on character level per se, and technically you should first be that character level before you can select a class... i believe so, but i just wanted to check. it makes the difference for whether you can take MT as your 3rd class level with only -1 casting for each side, which if they are cleric/wizard, just puts you on par with oracle/sorceror, but both of them at once... DAMN.
Angelblooded (+2STR/CHA) w/ Scion of Humanity and Racial Heritage (Orc) going ScarredWitch3/Paladin2/DD... ?
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I'm not sure how a single spell like ability counts as "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells." Emphasis mine on the plurality.
Nearly every wording of every prestige class involving spell casting involves a plural "cast spells" While the FAQ addresses the issue of feats requiring Caster levels (you do have caster levels when you have a spell like)
The other FAQ defining how to determine if it's arcane or divine seems a clarification of how it interacts with some abilities (notably ones that increase or decrease the save vs divine or arcane spells like certain traits etc)
I made several extremely in depth posts referencing exactly that grammatical distinction.
Paizo eventually responded, saying that the official interpretation of that vague grammar
is that having a single SLA does fulfill those qualifications.
I never asked whether Imbue with Spell-Like Ability (which only gives 1 or 2 castings which don't refresh daily) qualifies or not.
For a different take on a Gish type, a Tiefling Antipaladin 2/Sorcerer (infernal or abyssal) 3 qualifies for Hell Knight Enforcer, which has full caster progression, so Magical Knack ensures you'd have full caster level. It loses out on some martial abilities, but gets a lot of cool thematic options. Elf also works for this combo, though I find Tiefling more thematically appropriate.
search my posts for 'Thanks' HERE
tiefling don't get 3 level spell, but second. The concept is interesting however. BTW for the lolz you can do it with a paladin Lawful Good
For a different take on a Gish type, a Tiefling Antipaladin 2/Sorcerer (infernal or abyssal) 3 qualifies for Hell Knight Enforcer
Anti-Paladin = Chaotic Evil, HK Enforcer = Any Lawful... Paladins are totally legit for Enforcer, Anti-Pally's totally NOT.
How are you qualifying for 3rd level spells anyways?
I'm also a fan of Elf Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Eldritch Knight 5/Arcane Archer 8/Eldritch Knight 10
8th level spells, 19/14/9/4 BAB, decent saves, solid HP, bonus ranged combat feats, qualify for Weapon Specialization, gain the ability to imbue arrows and the ability to cast a spell as a swift action on a confirmed critical.
For a different take on a Gish type, a Tiefling Antipaladin 2/Sorcerer (infernal or abyssal) 3 qualifies for Hell Knight EnforcerAnti-Paladin = Chaotic Evil, HK Enforcer = Any Lawful...
Paladins are totally legit for it, A-P's totally not.
How are you qualifying for 3rd level spells anyways?
Yeah, that's what I get for not checking the spell level on Darkness. I assumed it was equal to Daylight as a 3rd level spell, but that makes too much sense. A Dreamspeaker elf still works, though.
Good point on the alignment, I've just grown used to GMs houseruling Antipaladin as lawful rather than chaotic.
No, Dreamspeaker doesn't qualify as casting 3rd level spells. A 5th level spell is not a 3rd level spell.
People have discussed similar issues with other builds, standard Aasimar's 3rd level SLA does not count as a 2nd level spell either.
Aasimar should be able to be more flexible for qualifying for Hellknight Enforcer though,
if you go pure Cleric SLA's don't help early entry because the 5 skill rank requirement gives Clerics 3rd Level spells anyways,
but they are free to multiclass or whatever and enter the Enforcer PrC at the same level, just with delayed casting.
That's what happens when I get all excited and don't read the whole thread first, isn't it? >.>
Seems Aasimar is overall the best race for this kind of thing, as they can potentially hit 0-4th+7th level SLAs through racial options/feats. Gnomes also have 0, 1, and (arguably) 3rd covered.
I personally wish there was more for Tiefling to take advantage of in light of this new FAQ.
What do you mean? Darkness is a 2nd level arcane SLA, so they're that much closer to meeting Mystic Theurge Pre-Req.
Take Cleric with Fate Inquisition and they get Augury for the 2nd level divine SLA, and they can enter MT as soon as they fulfill 3 skill rank pre-req. Even if you don't go with Cleric and the Fate Inquisition, the arcane SLA is still helping early entry.Plus Arcane Strike.
I'm personally excited that I can make an Oracle/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge without being so painfully far behind.
My Gnome Heavens Oracle definitely needed more spell slots with which to cast Color Spray, obviously. Oracle 4/Sorc 1/MT seems like pretty solid progression.
Would Eldritch Heritage work?
Some of the Bloodline abilities are Spell-like.
Sure, but none of the 1. level powers are SLAs of higher than 1. level.
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No, Dreamspeaker doesn't qualify as casting 3rd level spells. A 5th level spell is not a 3rd level spell.
People have discussed similar issues with other builds, standard Aasimar's 3rd level SLA does not count as a 2nd level spell either.Aasimar should be able to be more flexible for qualifying for Hellknight Enforcer though,
if you go pure Cleric SLA's don't help early entry because the 5 skill rank requirement gives Clerics 3rd Level spells anyways,
but they are free to multiclass or whatever and enter the Enforcer PrC at the same level, just with delayed casting.
You guys are driving me crazy using the d20pfsrd names!
It's a Hellknight signifer.
You guys are driving me crazy using the d20pfsrd names!
It's a Hellknight signifer.
Not our faults that paizo has prohibited the most well known SRD site for their game to use golarion-related names.
Thanks Mergy, I was kind of confused at never hearing that name before when SunsetPsychosis brought it up, I just kind of accepted it as something I hadn't heard of.
SIGNIFY THIS!
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Here's something to add to the list of SLAs:
In the APG, the Scryer subschool of Divination for specialist wizards grants this power:
Send Senses (Sp): As a standard action, you place a scrying sensor at a point within medium range (100 feet + 10 feet/wizard level) that you can see and have line of effect to. You can see or hear (not both) through this sensor for number of rounds equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum 1). The sensor otherwise functions as a clairaudience/clairovoyance spell with a caster level equal to your wizard level. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
With that being a 3rd-level spell, it looks like early-entry EK and Bloatmage doesn't require being a vanilla aasimar after all. (Though it does lock you into a pretty restrictive and not-that-great build choice...)
I believe that is similar to the Copy Cat/ Mirror Image thing.
Although it says it 'otherwise' functions like Clairaudience/Clairvoyance,
there are signifigant differences is function (range, duration, casting time),
so it should no longer as casting the 3rd level spell Clairaudience/Clairvoyance itself.
These differences are on par to Vanish vs. Invisiblity, and are certainly enough to justify that the ability is no longer a 3rd level spell...
Thus it defaults to the general rules for SLAs deriving spell level from the class level that grants them.
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I believe that is similar to the Copy Cat/ Mirror Image thing.
Although it says it 'otherwise' functions like Clairaudience/Clairvoyance,
there are signifigant differences is function (range, duration, casting time),
so it should no longer as casting the 3rd level spell Clairaudience/Clairvoyance itself.
These differences are on par to Vanish vs. Invisiblity, and are certainly enough to justify that the ability is no longer a 3rd level spell...
Thus it defaults to the general rules for SLAs deriving spell level from the class level that grants them.
The rule and FAQ I found only says that you go by class level if the SLA is not "based on a spell". The FAQ gives an example in which the SLA doesn't even mention a spell, which is quite a bit different from being a tweaked version of a spell.
Unless you have an example of precedent to the contrary? Was there a ruling or commentary on the Copycat ability or something?
I guess the Copy Cat/ Send Senses thing deserves a FAQ.
The rules say 'based on a spell' but if not all of the SLA's function is based on a specific spell (specifying it's own parameters),
I don't think the SLA as a whole should still qualify as 'based on' a specific spell.
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I guess the Copy Cat/ Send Senses thing deserves a FAQ.
The rules say 'based on a spell' but if not all of the SLA's function is based on a specific spell (specifying it's own parameters),
I don't think the SLA as a whole should still qualify as 'based on' a specific spell.
If that was the case, then why wouldn't the FAQ have used something like Copycat or Send Senses as its example instead of Elemental Ray (which doesn't even reference a spell)? Had it been the intent to cover both sorts, then using the former as an example would have made the inclusion of latter painfully obvious. The fact that they instead chose the latter as an example seems to suggest that the type of thing they're talking about is just that type of SLA: the sort that's not based on a spell.
no. Not even with class ability. The closest thing is that copycat thing, but is very sketchy. I personally don't think it work and wouldn't allow it.
So I'm late to the party, but I'm wondering if anybody has worked out how the Base classes affect whether a SLA is arcane or divine? This is based on the rules located here.
It seems to me that the logic is:
1) Arcane classes take precedence over Divine.
2) Full Spell Casting Classes take precedence over those with limited spell casting.
That is the general logic, but by my understanding, the specific list of class lists in the Bestiary takes priority,
meaning Wiz/Sorc->Cleric->Druid->->->Ranger... and only after Paladin/Ranger are non-Core class lists, such as Witch, used.I would arrange the non-Core Classes in the order indicated by the 'general logic' though.
I had your same confusion, since the FAQ didn't mention non-Core classes at all,
and your suggested reading feels like the best 'good faith effort' by a player to apply the ruling to non-Core classes,
but although SKR did not want to give a straight-forward answer about non-Core classes, he didn't dispute the above reading.
Re: these Domains granting certain SLAs which may count as Arcane by the general rule...
The bestiary rule references only 'monsters' with SLAs and the FAQ references "creatures with SLAs, including PC races',
which seems to establish the context there as only determining racial SLAs.
So class-based SLAs may still be undefined technically, although reasonable to say that SLAs granted by a class should be divine/arcane as appropriate to the class. I guess that is something that could be cleared up definitively. It doesn't seem too far out for SLAs granted by Divine Domains to in fact be Divine. Domains also routinely grant normally arcane spells as Domain spells, and don't explicitly change the arcane/divine typing of those spells.
I don't see any reason to not beleive that every part of a Domain is Divine. Ruling otherwise would create some problems for Paizo's own Golarion setting, where the anti-God country of Rahadoum apparently can distinguish between arcane and divine magic (suppressing the divine), but if many gods are granting their clerics 'arcane' powers, that kind of falls apart.
There's plenty of other options which are legal to take but not functionally useful without certain 'unofficial prereqs'.
To make functional usage of casting progression you need an actual casting class (or have spellcasting equivalency as a race, e.g. dragons),
but needing 1 level is very different than needing 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 levels.
Something like Dragon Disciple is plausibly useful even without casting, although not exactly a great deal, it's not worse than NPC levels.
So having a SLA like daylight (Aasimar) which is 3rd level does not qualify you for MT (able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells)?
Nobody seems to think higher level spells count as lower level spells for meeting prereqs, literally they don't.
Ah, thank you very much for your answer! I had not been reading attentively...
I wouldn't say that's so much an answer, as an open question.
I gave my reading of what is 'reasonable' in the lack of rules, but that is not at all the same as an actual rule or FAQ ruling.AFAIK, Clerics ARE running around Rahadoum with full blessing of the Legion of Purity to use their 'Arcane' powers.