Can I fly while helpless?

[Tamago]

So this past weekend, my group encountered some Mud Elementals. My rogue was unfortunately entrapped, which rendered her Helpless. However, she was under the effect of a Fly spell from the party Sorcerer, which leads to my question: can a PC fly while helpless?

Quoting the Entrap ability for reference:

Spoiler:

Entrap (Ex or Su)

The creature has an ability that restricts another creature’s movement, usually with a physical attack such as ice, mud, lava, or webs. The target of an entrap attack must make a Fortitude save or become entangled for the listed duration. If a target is already entangled by this ability, a second entrap attack means the target must make a Fortitude save or become helpless for the listed duration. The save DCs are Constitution-based. A target made helpless by this ability is conscious but can take no physical actions (except attempting to break free) until the entrapping material is removed. The target can use spells with only verbal components or spell-like abilities if it can make a DC 20 concentration check. An entangled creature can make a Strength check (at the same DC as the entrap saving throw DC) as a full-round action to break free; the DC for a helpless creature is +5 Greater than the saving throw DC. Destroying the entrapping material frees the creature.

Really, I think it comes down to what kind of action is required to control magical flight? Obviously I don't need to flap my arms around, but is anything else required? Do I need to do the "superman pose?" What if I'm already flying at the time I become entrapped?

[Jason Stormblade]

Somehow I'm picturing Handyman from In Living Color...way back in the day

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

I always thought of Peter Pan flying, where you can do anything you want so long as you believe (Don't laugh :P)

Else, how could my magus fly and hit stuff multiple times with his awesome sword of doom?

I think flying is like using a muscle you just found out you had, that moves your entire body whichever way you will it to go. As long as you have any motor control over your body, including moving your mouth, you'd be able to fly.

[Claxon]

Quote:

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

I would say based on the description of helpless you can't do anything physical, at least thats the intention.

It even says in the description of Entrap that you can take no physical actions. I would say the moving (even thorugh magical flight) requires physical action and thus wouldn't be able to do anything. The intention is clearly that you can't do anything other than try to break out of the material or wait for someone else to do it.

[Heimdall666]

I think you can still fly if the creature holding you is within the limits of the fly spell/ability weight capacity, otherwise its really an escape artist check which the text allows. Otherwise its you and the muddy buddy sailing off randomly into a cliff-side.
I think Fly needs a little more love, it doesn't make sense either that your fly speed (via spell) is slower than your ground run speed, and I don't think you can "run" with a fly spell, ie increase your base speed x3, 4,etc...like you could on the ground.

[Avatar-1]

I'd say you have to do the Superman pose in order to fly.

[RedDogMT]

When a Mud Elemental makes a character helpless, I see him being completely encased in mud, immobile.

Since flying requires as much concentration as walking, I don't think it's a problem to let him try. I would allow the player the option to use a fly check to escape the mud instead of a strength check, but that's it.

[Joesi]

I think I recall hearing somewhere that for flying due to magic and not wings, being helpless (or maybe it was entangled or something) shouldn't matter.

I'd say that it depends what type of helpless though. If the character was unconscious or in any other way mentally incapacitated, I'd say the flying would end.

But if they're just pinned or held by something, I think it's reasonable to say they can still use their magic to remain flying. the degree of flying may be questionable though. It would very likely have a penalty and/or be limited to only staying afloat, rather than actually being able to move around since while realistically viable, I think it goes against the intentions of the Entrap spell.

[Snorter]

Depends on the nature and restrictions of the specific helpless condition, whether it also affects mental actions.

Their Dex would be hindered, which would reduce their Fly skill bonus; whether that makes enough of a difference?

I'd allow clumsy flight, possibly there should be an extra penalty, for not being able to freely look around to see where you're going?

[Pizza Lord]

Like Snorter says, it depends on the nature and conditions of the effect. There's different types of helpless (sleeping, bound, paralyzed, etc.) and they allow different things to be performed while in them. Similarly, there's different types of things that cause entanglement.

In this case, I'd say the Entrapment represents sticky mud trapping the character's limbs and possibly gluing him to the ground, similar to a tanglefoot bag (though that gives a Reflex save to avoid being glued to the floor).

This means if he was on the ground and got entangled/entrapped first, then he can't fly without breaking free, since he's stuck to the ground. If he were already flying, he wouldn't be stuck to the ground, just entangled (and then helpless and unable to perform physical actions after a second Entrap).

It really depends on the entanglement type though, a net for instance only slows movement as normal for entanglement but prevents it to a certain distance with a trailing rope, an anchored web sheet prevents movement if entangled in it. The web spell, interestingly enough, no longer entangles, it grapples. So, if you view the mud as sticky, they might be considered anchored. If you view it as just enshrouding, like being bound in a big ball of (non-sticky) cotton candy or bubblewrap, he might not be anchored.

[Eridan]

Keep it simple.

With a fly spell you got a fly speed and flying is like 'walking' for you. So you got a second posibility to move your body around.

Entrap wrote:

The creature has an ability that restricts another creature’s movement..

Grapple condition wrote:

A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and ..

Entangled condition wrote:

The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed..

Helpless wrote:

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).

DEX wrote:

A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).

All this conditions modify your ability to move around regardless what kind of movement type (climb, fly, swim, burrow or land speed) you use.

[Kimera757]

You might have an argument had you been the victim of a Hold Monster spell (IMO, making a Fly check at a pretty high DC to fly in one direction until the hold effect ends is pretty reasonable, but note that HM gives saves as full-round actions), but in the OP's case no, you shouldn't be able to fly.

Your movements were being physically restricted. It would be like trying to fly while tied to a rope, or while being grabbed by a wrestler. (I suppose, if you had some really powerful flying magic, you could fly off with the mud elemental, but it would still be holding onto you.)

[Avatar-1]

Joesi wrote:

I think I recall hearing somewhere that for flying due to magic and not wings, being helpless (or maybe it was entangled or something) shouldn't matter.

I think I remember this as well - did SKR say it?

I don't remember the context, but it rings a loud bell.

[Lincoln Hills]

There was a long wrangle about hold person and magical flight a few weeks back - maybe that was what you're thinking of? I don't know how it ended, although my money would not be on "consensus, apologies all around and manly handshakes."

[Tamago]

RedDogMT wrote:

When a Mud Elemental makes a character helpless, I see him being completely encased in mud, immobile.

Since flying requires as much concentration as walking, I don't think it's a problem to let him try. I would allow the player the option to use a fly check to escape the mud instead of a strength check, but that's it.

That's what my GM ruled during the game, and I think it was fair. Of course, it was pretty difficult to manage, given that Fly is a DEX-based skill and I had an effective DEX of zero due to being helpless...

[Ughbash]

There is a rule that says if a creature that is flying with wings is paralyzed they fall. Thus if htey are flyign with a fly spell, they do not. HOWEVER there is no rule that I am aware of saying they continue to fly about under their own control.

Which makes one wonder if they would stay going with the same vector they had or if they would hover (and thus need a fly check which they would likley fail). I would tend to think continue moving with the same vector.