Yeah, definitely mix things up and insist that everybody have a witness to their dice rolls, whether electronic or not.
Once you confirm that he's cheating, inform him that he will not be permitted to play for the remainder of the adventure path.
Sounds like 3 things could be done to really curb the potential cheating:
1. Request no laptops at the table.
2. Go out and get a bag of dice, and have the players roll real dice on the table
3. Made some modifications for some of the upcoming stuff. Some simple things can be to change resistances, and swap out spells for casters. In addition, you can definitely alter the layout of some areas and shift around/replace some loot.
The third thing is the biggest, because the second he does a "it's not supposed to be that way", you have clear proof of cheating.
My concern really is for book 2, where if he has read ahead he could ruin a lot of the fun for the rest of the party by knowing exactly what to ask and where to go.
The other thing to consider is that it is still possible he is not reading ahead. Seeing large doors to a cathedral in a dungeon is a cue that there may be something big and important there, so there he may only be guilty of metagaming. I know my group identified the zombie pits pretty much right after I read the description of the room. Hiding his screen from you is also not a scarlet letter. For all you know he may have a private chat conversation going on, or something else he doesn't want others to see. As such, directly accusing him may not be prudent yet, or at the very least you should handle it delicately if you choose to do so.
I don't think we're talking about the same thing at all. You're assuming the person is acting on the secret knowledge, finding hidden treasure and not sharing it, letting other people in the party die while they use the secret weakness they pretend to guess and save the day. That behavior is ridiculous and obnoxious.
But if someone just knows the major plot points, but enjoys the ride, and acts in character, etc., how is anyone disadvantaged?
I think the question that needs to be clarified is this:
Is this player just reading ahead, or is he reading ahead and acting on that knowledge to the detriment of the other players?
I'm pretty sure the title of the thread answered this question.
Not to seem rude or obnoxious but folks, please mind what you are saying and use spoiler tags when actually discussing the adventure specifics. Some of us that have offered our opinions on the subject of cheating, me specifically, have not yet played through the adventure and would hate any foreknowledge to what may or may not be coming. I continue to read the thread because i'm interested in hearing others opinions on this matter.
Cheers.
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Also, whenever I would lean in his direction, before my suspicions really took root, he would turn the laptop away or fold the screen down a bit. Like that isn't suspicious in and of itself.
I have also suspected him of cheating using a dice roller on the lap top. Not that the dice roller isn't fair but he just tells us he rolled ( "double-click"), and his result, which almost always succeeds.
I just wouldn't allow laptops at my table when I run games--too distracting, drives me nuts.
That said, I think your player is being clumsy about this, and yes, it seems he is cheating. What he is doing is very different than just reading the AP, thank you for clarifying, because none of my comments have applied to a player like that.
I'd call him on it, personally--I don't like passive aggressive games like changing the location of something to trick him. Confront him on it, and get it over with. And/or ban laptops for players.
This is just another reason to add on to why I don't like pre-written adventures. I hated running the one AP I tried, and just ended up deviating so much, it was barely recognizable.
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I have to admit that I like running pre-written adventures, because I'm too damn busy in life to have time to prepare a lot of adventures.
I *like* preparing my own adventures. But, the real world being what it is, the time savings of being able to read somebody else's and run that makes it more possible to GM games.
Sadly, that means that if I'm supposed to do a lot of modifications to said prepublished adventures, it undermines half of the advantage of them. This is why suggestions of making modifications always sound like not-great solutions to me. Unless you wanted to do it anyway, you're now doing extra effort to deal with a situation that ideally you shouldn't have to deal with.
I have to admit that I like running pre-written adventures, because I'm too damn busy in life to have time to prepare a lot of adventures.
I *like* preparing my own adventures. But, the real world being what it is, the time savings of being able to read somebody else's and run that makes it more possible to GM games.
I know this is a sidetrack, but the answer for me is:
Don't prepare adventures. I used to do that--now I just run it all off the cuff. It turns out much better.
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I have to admit that I like running pre-written adventures, because I'm too damn busy in life to have time to prepare a lot of adventures.
I *like* preparing my own adventures. But, the real world being what it is, the time savings of being able to read somebody else's and run that makes it more possible to GM games.
I know this is a sidetrack, but the answer for me is:
Don't prepare adventures. I used to do that--now I just run it all off th cuff. It turns out much better.
Is that a question?
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-I find the motivation bizarre. Why would you want to ruin an AP by knowing what happens?
-people who want to 'win' table top RPGs are strange.
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I'm a bit divided on this because just having the book might not be outright cheating, though what you described (avoiding the "always go Right" tactic) sounds like the negative use.
The positive reason for having the book is already around in PFS where someone who GMs a scenario and then plays it afterwards must avoid metagaming knowing that death awaits him in the next room, having to walk inside assuming he doesn't know what's there. If he avoids that room because he knows death is there, then he's metagaming - and cheating.
This isn't PFS though, so the only good reason to have the book there is if you've told him something that he's maybe missed or needs to catch up on. Again, it doesn't sound like that's happening because he's going straight for the goodies.
The question is, what's the end result? Do they have a better experience? No doubt it annoys you because you're the GM, but do the players feel they're being taken a bit advantage of by this player who seems to get it right every time? Or are they having arguments because he's breaking protocol?
If it's the latter, call him on it. If not, deal with it.
-I find the motivation bizarre. Why would you want to ruin an AP by knowing what happens?
While I agree that what the player in the OP's game is bizarre to me, it is very easy to see why someone would want to find out what happens ahead of time.
Twists are not the only thing to enjoy about a story--you can full well know what happens and still enjoy the ride. Haven't you ever seen the same movie or TV show twice? Reruns exist for a reason. And it isn't like people who listened to epic poets reciting Beowulf didn't already know the story.
For many people, what happens is not nearly as important to them as how it happens. Think of a fight scene in an action movie--you know the hero is going to win--but the fight is interesting because of how he wins. I know Jackie Chan is going to beat the three thugs, but it's still awesome when he dives through the rungs of the ladder and kicks it backwards into them.
I might know that X is the real villain all along, but it can still be cool to see how that is revealed in game. I ran a Vampire: the Requiem game once where a player would ask "hey, so what's the deal with this character's backstory," and I'd tell her between sessions--I was thrilled to have someone so interested and invested that they wanted to know more. Then, when said backstories actually came up at the table, she was still greatly moved by the emotion of the scene and how it all came out--once or twice even to the point of tears.
All I'm saying--all I've been saying--is that "how" or "why" is just as valid an entertainment goal as "what."
But again, yeah, this does not seem to apply to the player in question in this thread.
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I have to agree, laptops away from the gaming table. I had to do this also, but at my table it is due to chat, youtube "isn't that cool videos", and online shopping while gaming.
Also agree on dice rolling on the table. No pickups of the dice either, thats another common cheat. If they insist on using dicerollers, make them use one on their phone which they can lay on the table for all to verify. Honestly, using a diceroller no one can see and announcing what you rolled...thats just asking for people to fudge the dice.
As far as cheating with the material, if he has to win that perfectly that he needs to reference the AP during the game like that, then he has a serious issue with winning, and therefore with cheating. Hopefully, this is not the case. However if it is, he is not going to stop unless you make him by cutting off every method he is currently using.
In other words, make everything transparent, no material except the player books on the table. If your group uses PDFs, tell them you have the right to look at them at any time because you don't want extracurricular stuff going on while gaming. Roll real dice. I know we live in an age of techology, but it is a tabletop game. :)
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I don't consider reading ahead to be cheating (I have no problem if a player in my games has read the adventure).
As such, I think you should make sure the player knows it's against the rules - it may be a minority view, but there are nonetheless people like us who would be oblivious to the fact that it was frowned on. I wouldn't have known it was generally considered poor etiquette (to be polite) if I hadn't read the forums.
Having said that, covering the screen, rolling in secret, etcetera etcetera sounds like he is well aware that what he's doing isn't kosher.
Nonetheless, explicitly calling out a list of 'not acceptable' behaviours is almost certainly a good first step (no matter whether he's a cheater or just misunderstood). The retributive/investigative steps can come later.
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I have to admit that I like running pre-written adventures, because I'm too damn busy in life to have time to prepare a lot of adventures.
I *like* preparing my own adventures. But, the real world being what it is, the time savings of being able to read somebody else's and run that makes it more possible to GM games.
I know this is a sidetrack, but the answer for me is:
Don't prepare adventures. I used to do that--now I just run it all off the cuff. It turns out much better.
I've done this, and sometimes it's turned out well. But not so much with Pathfinder. I can do it if I'm running certain kinds of games in certain settings with Fudge, say. But, my experience is that with Pathfinder, when I'm prepared, by and large things go far better.
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Sit in his lap, put your arm over his shoulders and twirl a finger around his chest.
then say "hey sweetie. I don't like how you're doing other readings while we're playing my game sweets. So this is your punishment. Everytime I catch anyone reading or playing other things in game I'm going to sit on their laps for the rest of the session"
Then blow in their ear. Problem Solved
LOL
That would get me to stop cheating. Especially if you're a good sized man, with a lot of body hair.
I certainly would think twice in the future, unless the GM is an attractive girl, then I would be the guy next to him, saying, "Hey, I'm cheating, me next."
Right, but how could someone skip the "party splits the loot" step by knowing the loot is there ahead of time?Of course we do, but as far as I'm aware, nobody in our party is cheating...If he doesn't, and quickly nabs all the best loot before anyone realises it's there every session then call him out.I don't really understand how this would even work. Your party doesn't split all the loot? I don't get it.Slips note to GM which reads:
[em]I'm making a Sleight of Hand check to pocket the XYZ McGuffin.[/em]GM calls for Perception roll, player X rolls their SoH instead.
Done and done.
Note, I have played with groups where this has happened, and folks have been cool with roleplaying the situation out (usually with warnings of losing hands if it ever happens again once the PC is caught in the act ... once with blackmail and a tentative partnership). I've played with other groups where this has happened and player X became a bit of a pariah (the player, not the PC ... it was viewed as a player being a jerk). So it really depends on your group.
For me grabbing more loot and/or stealing from the party is among the worst kinds of cheating.
On the topic: I like the idea of telling the players that you think one is reading the adventure and you don't like it.
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Man It's sad to see how many threads there are on this subject.
Ok first confirm, I'd ask the player straight out and make it clear that cheating at a "fantasy" game is not only wrong and disrespectful but downright pathetic!
Confer with your other players and guage their feelings on this player.
Finally if the player is cheating or even if you still believe he is boot them out
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I've been on both sides of this issue, in a way.
I was running Second Darkness, but my group fell apart early in the second book. I joined a group that was just finishing up the first book. I let the GM know I had read through the end of the second book preparing for my own campaign and confirmed it was okay I play anyway. I then made a support character, and went out of my way to avoid influencing decisions the party made. I would even deliberately suggest "bad" ideas, if I thought they made sense, given my character's knowledge. the closest I came to "cheating" (I think, anyway!) was deliberately putting my character in danger in a bad situation where she could hopefully help keep the other party members alive if they were stuck too.
I then ran a game. We had a player exhibiting some of these same behaviors. The character was antisocial to an amazing degree, actively worked to not get along with NPCs in general, and militantly uninterested in steering party direction - except when there was an important NPC the rest of the party ignored, suddenly this character was gregarious, and knew just what hooks the NPC had to get them to help the party / say something important. When there was an easter egg, suddenly the character would start telling the party where to go and what to do.
I knew what was happening, and I was already changing the AP quite a bit on my own initiative, so I just kept on changing things. But the player was so obvious about what he was doing that the other players suspected what was happening and started asking me questions. I asked him to stop, as it was ruining the fun for other players. After a few backslides, he did - or he at least modified his behavior to the point that nobody suspected he was reading anymore.
I like being surprised in the game. I don't like knowing what's happening ahead of time. But I don't care what the other players do, as long as it doesn't ruin the fun for anyone else. I think this player just didn't want to "miss" anything. He didn't try to keep any of the things he found for himself. I don't like that myself, but if the player can keep it from interfering with the other players' enjoyment, whatever.
This player sounds like he's not just enjoying knowing the plot ahead of time - he's steering the party in the "best" direction. That's the sort of thing the whole party needs to agree to, or it needs to not happen.
I'm okay with the idea of changing a big thing that will directly affect this player to confirm that they're reading ahead, if you're unsure. Sending out the mass letter is another good solution. Once you feel confident tht something is happening, however, I think a direct chat, either one on one or as a whole group is going to be the most likely to get you positive results.
I hope it all works out!
Good luck!
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The good news for Rise is that, by and large, it is just a dungeon crawl. Section 2 has a decent amount of RP elements that may be ruined, but the rest even having full knowledge won't help a terrible amount. Most knowledge you could garner reading the PDF comes from knowing the beastiary, and there are plenty of players that have memorized that backwards and forwards.
You have to trust your players; you just do, anything else will lead to harboring bad feelings. And if he wants to win that badly, he can do what he can with the knowledge; you'll actually find if he cheated he'll reverse-metagame a lot and probably mess himself up just covering up.
So just like in a good relationship, let it go and trust your player. If it ever ends up proven, well then you can take actions to remove him from future games. He's ruined his experience more than anything.