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So we all know that readying to fire an arrow at a spellcaster if they start casting is a good tactic. If you hit, you force a concentration check, and they might lose the spell.
But what about readying to disrupt something other than casting?
I was thinking about a whip wielder who disarms an archer from 15 feet away. Normally, on the whip guy's turn, if he succeeds at disarming the archer, then the bow lands at the archer's feet. On the archer's turn, the archer picks up the bow as a move action, then fires it as a standard action. If the archer has rapid shot or high enough BAB for multiple shots per round, then this is useful, because the whip guy prevented the archer from taking a full attack for multiple shots. But the archer still gets one shot off, probably at the annoying whip guy.
But what if the whip guy instead readied an action to disarm the archer when the archer tries to fire his bow? Assuming the whip guy's disarm attempt succeeds, could he disrupt the standard action, thus preventing the archer's first shot as it happens? Would that mean the archer lost his standard action for the round, and could pick up the bow as a move action, but wouldn't be able to fire at all that round?
Come to think of it, same question with the whip guy tripping instead of disarming when the archer goes to fire his bow. The archer can't fire from prone (assuming bow, not crossbow), and stands up as a move action, but did he lose the standard action that got interrupted when he was tripped, or can he just fire after standing back up?
What are other scenarios where readying an attack against someone's action could prevent their action from happening?
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Interestingly I just looked up the readied action rules for someone else's questions. I think this is the relevant rule:
"Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
My interpretation of this, as it does not say exactly is that if they can't do what they were going to do then they can do something else. They do not loose the action.
So the archer could pick up with bow and shoot still.
Interestingly I just looked up the readied action rules for someone else's questions. I think this is the relevant rule:
"Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
My interpretation of this, as it does not say exactly is that if they can't do what they were going to do then they can do something else. They do not loose the action.
So the archer could pick up with bow and shoot still.
I'd disagree. They committed to the action, which is what triggered the readied action. Since they've committed they are stuck with the consequences. They can't suddenly change their mind and do something else, because doing so creates a paradox in which the readied action does not get triggered then.
Consider the standard case of a readied action to attack when a caster tries to cast a spell. If the spell is interrupted and lost do you allow the caster an additional standard action and let them cast another spell after losing the first one?
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Interestingly I just looked up the readied action rules for someone else's questions. I think this is the relevant rule:
"Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
My interpretation of this, as it does not say exactly is that if they can't do what they were going to do then they can do something else. They do not loose the action.
So the archer could pick up with bow and shoot still.
I read that exactly opposite of you Seriphim.
1. Bard readies action to disarm archer if he attempts to fire his bow.2. Archer pulls and arrow and knocks.
3. Readied action goes off, Bard attempts disarm.
4A. Disarm successful, archer has no bow in hand and cannot fire.
4B. Disarm fails, bard gets peppered with arrows.
You can't begin deciding other actions (such as picking up the bow), until after the "Archer attempts to fire" is resolved.
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@bbangerter
The wizard situation isn't applicable. The wizard still gets to attempt the spell. Yes we has a high chance of failure (or total) chance of failure but he can still attempt it so he has to.
In this kind of situation the action is impossible. As the rules say he will carry it out "he is still capable of doing so." Since he isn't he can do something else.
The rules give an exception for if the action is no longer possible.
Edit: @bbangerter
The "Archer attempts to fire" is no longer possible as he doesn't have a bow. And since the disarm took place before the archers action (readied actions happen before the action that triggers them) then the archer still has his full turn left with no wasted actions.
@bbangerter
The wizard situation isn't applicable. The wizard still gets to attempt the spell. Yes we has a high chance of failure (or total) chance of failure but he can still attempt it so he has to.
In this kind of situation the action is impossible. As the rules say he will carry it out "he is still capable of doing so." Since he isn't he can do something else.
The rules give an exception for if the action is no longer possible.
Edit: @bbangerter
The "Archer attempts to fire" is no longer possible as he doesn't have a bow. And since the disarm took place before the archers action (readied actions happen before the action that triggers them) then the archer still has his full turn left with no wasted actions.
This isn't any different than the archer case.
For the wizard, if he gets hit, then fails his concentration check he loses the spell.
For the archer, if the attacker beats his CMD with the disarm attempt he loses his bow.
Both have a chance of 'succeeding' or 'failing'. In the wizards case two dice get rolled to determine that chance. For the archer only one does. But the number of dice rolled is merely a mechanics issue.
Wizards sometimes have to overcome both SR and saving throws for their spells. Sometimes an action requires a roll to be successful then an opponents counter roll to prevent it from being even worse (say a rogue walking on a narrow beam when he gets attacked - attack roll to hit, acrobatics roll to not fall).
I think Seraphim's interpretation is correct.
The interrupted wizard can still carry out his standard (or full-round) action despite being interrupted; his action is not prevented or lost, it is merely hindered. Likewise, the interrupted archer can still carry out his standard (or rull-round) action despite being interrupted; his action is not prevented or lost, it is merely hindered.
However, in the archer's case, if he no longer has the bow, he will have to make different choices with the action since firing a bow he doesn't have is a bit impractical.
Interesting. I've had problems with readied actions in the past.
Dotted.
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I'm leaning towards thinking the archer loses his standard action, and not just because my character is the one with the whip.
What caused the whip guy's readied action to go off? The archer started to fire his bow. If he hadn't grabbed an arrow from his quiver and notched it on the string, the readied action wouldn't have gone off. For those who think that beginning his attack isn't a standard action, then exactly what type of action is it to pull an arrow out of a quiver, notch it on the string, and begin to pull the string back?
I'd say if he gets disarmed in the middle of the standard action, then he can't take a different standard action, because he already began one, even if he got interrupted before completing it.
On the other hand, the rules specifically state that you can decide whether you're full attacking or making a single attack after seeing how the first attack turns out. So if the archer was planning to full attack and gets disarmed, he still has a move action left, because only a standard action got used up attempting unsuccessfully to fire his first arrow. So he can definitely pick up the bow in the same turn that he was disarmed of it.
I think Seraphim's interpretation is correct.
The interrupted wizard can still carry out his standard (or full-round) action despite being interrupted; his action is not prevented or lost, it is merely hindered. Likewise, the interrupted archer can still carry out his standard (or rull-round) action despite being interrupted; his action is not prevented or lost, it is merely hindered.
However, in the archer's case, if he no longer has the bow, he will have to make different choices with the action since firing a bow he doesn't have is a bit impractical.
Just to clarify.
You'd allow a wizard to start to cast, get hit, lose his spell, and in the same round cast another spell? That almost entirely defeats the purpose of readying an action to attack when someone casts a spell, since you can only do that once per round, but the wizard, in this ruling, would be able to get a spell off anyway. Even better, once the wizard sees the character aiming his bow at him (but not yet firing), he can cast a cantrip, knowing it will get interrupted, then cast his real spell when there are no more readied actions.
Or for the archer case. He has his move and standard. He starts to fire. Gets disarmed. Move action to pick his bow back up. Standard action and fires anyway.
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I'm leaning towards thinking the archer loses his standard action, and not just because my character is the one with the whip.
What caused the whip guy's readied action to go off? The archer started to fire his bow. If he hadn't grabbed an arrow from his quiver and notched it on the string, the readied action wouldn't have gone off. For those who think that beginning his attack isn't a standard action, then exactly what type of action is it to pull an arrow out of a quiver, notch it on the string, and begin to pull the string back?
I'd say if he gets disarmed in the middle of the standard action, then he can't take a different standard action, because he already began one, even if he got interrupted before completing it.
On the other hand, the rules specifically state that you can decide whether you're full attacking or making a single attack after seeing how the first attack turns out. So if the archer was planning to full attack and gets disarmed, he still has a move action left, because only a standard action got used up attempting unsuccessfully to fire his first arrow. So he can definitely pick up the bow in the same turn that he was disarmed of it.
When dealing with the rules of pathfinder you have to draw a line between mechanics and theatrics.
"The action occurs just before the action that triggers it."If you, as the whip wield ready to disarm the archer if he shoots his bow then the archer shoots his bow, your readied action goes off right before the action to shoot the bow. Yes it is a small time dilatation but that is how it works mechanically.
"Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
The archer, no longer being capable of doing the action he was going to do cannot continue it (he won't mime shooting at you). But he also hasn't spent any actions (except maybe a free one to draw an arrow) so he still has all his actions left.
It is not as visually compelling as him aiming his sight right as you yank the bow from his hands but it is how the rules work.
I think Seraphim's interpretation is correct.
The interrupted wizard can still carry out his standard (or full-round) action despite being interrupted; his action is not prevented or lost, it is merely hindered. Likewise, the interrupted archer can still carry out his standard (or rull-round) action despite being interrupted; his action is not prevented or lost, it is merely hindered.
However, in the archer's case, if he no longer has the bow, he will have to make different choices with the action since firing a bow he doesn't have is a bit impractical.
Just to clarify.
You'd allow a wizard to start to cast, get hit, lose his spell, and in the same round cast another spell? That almost entirely defeats the purpose of readying an action to attack when someone casts a spell, since you can only do that once per round, but the wizard, in this ruling, would be able to get a spell off anyway. Even better, once the wizard sees the character aiming his bow at him (but not yet firing), he can cast a cantrip, knowing it will get interrupted, then cast his real spell when there are no more readied actions.
Of course not.
If the wizard tries to cast a spell, gets hit, takes damage, he continues with his standard action and tries to cast that spell. That's what the CRB says. The damage is applied to create a DC and the wizard has to make a concentration check against that DC or he loses the spell. Either way, he finishes his standard action - he doesn't lose the action.
Or for the archer case. He has his move and standard. He starts to fire. Gets disarmed. Move action to pick his bow back up. Standard action and fires anyway.
Except the archer doesn't lose his standard action. Furthermore, since the CRB says the readied action happens before the action that triggers it, this means the archer has not taken his standard action yet. Obviously, now he cannot shoot since is hot holding his bow, but he still has that standard action and can do anything else with it.
@ Lincoln Hills:
Your point is valid, and it's one that I've always had with readied interrupts, including in CCGs like Magic: The Gathering. How can an action trigger you to interrupt that action BEFORE the guy even starts the action?
It implies that everyone has some kind of telepathy and knows what their enemies are about to do, even before the enemy starts doing it. Tactically, it can be great fun in a game. But it trashes all sense of verisimilitude from the rules.
Ultimately, it's up to each GM to decide how much impractical RAW he will follow, or how much verisimilitude he will salvage through houserules.
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@ Lincoln Hills:
I completely agree. In discussing home rules and such it is a completely different idea.
I am running a game and it hasn't come up, but if it did I would probably rule differently. Something along the lines of the shot goes off and then the bow is disarmed (shot would probably get a negative to hit). but that's just me.
Enjoy the game however is the most fun for you, your GM and your other players.
Of course not.
So the wizard is required to try and complete his action, but the archer is not? If the wizard hasn't really started to cast his spell yet (which based on a very very strict reading of the readied action goes off before the action that triggered it is the case), then why can't the wizard change his mind about what he wants to do?
Note that the archer hasn't used his standard action should apply to the wizard as well. e.g, wizard starts to cast, gets hit, says "I've still got my standard left over, so I'm going to do a full round withdraw action instead (or a double move, or poke him with my dagger, or whatever). And since I don't have a standard action left over to try and cast a spell I don't lose the spell."
Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
Nothing in that specifies the wizard must continue with the action he planned to do (that is casting a spell). He just continues to use his actions till his turn is over.
Or for the archer case. He has his move and standard. He starts to fire. Gets disarmed. Move action to pick his bow back up. Standard action and fires anyway.Except the archer doesn't lose his standard action. Furthermore, since the CRB says the readied action happens before the action that triggers it, this means the archer has not taken his standard action yet. Obviously, now he cannot shoot since is hot holding his bow, but he...
You didn't completely answer the scenario here. Do you allow the archer to use his move action to pick up his bow, then since he still has a standard gets to take a shot anyway?
"Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
Am I seriously the only person who sees this sentence as a clarification that a successful readied action is not a guaranteed interrupt effect that will always, automatically, steal an action from the enemy, whether it be move, standard, or full?
1. You hit the wizard as he casts a spell, who takes damage but is not dead. He is still capable of continuing his action, although he must make a concentration check to succeed in said action.
2. You trip the ranger as he begins to full attack. He is prone, and can still attack, with penalties, if he chooses to. Or he can abort his full attack to a standard and then stand up as a move.
3. You bull-rush the rogue as he begins to attack your ally. You only move him five feet, so he can still attack your ally, but he is no longer flanking with his own ally and does not get sneak attack now.
"The action occurs just before the action that triggers it." The flip side of the coin to the first. A clarification of the fact that a readied action can (not will, but can) prevent the enemies action from actually taking place. Readied actions are not simultaneous collisions, no matter how they may appear thematically. And if a readied action occured after the action triggering it, it would be useless 99% of the time and likely confuse/irritate a lot of people if it still had its intended effect.
Such as:
Player: I cast my spell! My fireball does 26 damage to this area!
DM: The evil cultist's readied action goes off. He hits you, make a concentration check or loose your spell.
Player: But I already cast it!
DM: It was a readied action.
Player: Then why didn't it happen before I finished casting?
Perhaps the verbage should be changed to "The action occurs just before the action that triggers it is completed." But I can see how even that would produce odd scenarios in the case of a full attack. "Hooray, I stopped the fighter's fourth attack with my disarm, yay." Or interrupting a summon spell. "It's a 1 round cast, your readied action goes off just before his turn next round."
Taking an action means taking that action. If you take the action to do something that someone else has readied to try to interrupt, you don't get to magically rewind time to take back that decision and do something else. You either attempt to complete the action, or you simply loose the action as it has become impossible to complete (dead, enemy moved, blind, etc).