Hexcrafter magus save vs spell

[Korthis]

Ok. I was told that if you hit something with spellstike the target still gets to save vs the spell and spell resistance still applies.

Hexcrafter ability:

A hexcrafter magus who can cast bestow curse, major curse, or any spell with the curse descriptor can deliver these prepared spells using the spellstrike ability, even if the spells are not touch attack spells.

If this is the case then what is the point of spell striking with a curse other than getting a second attack (which at this point you could be adding massive damage instead)?

[Martiln]

You don't get a 2nd attack, you get to automatically deliver the spell to the target if you hit with your weapon, in addition to doing weapon damage. And yes, spell resistance does apply and they get to make a saving throw vs the spell, however not all magus spells have saving throws(shocking grasp comes to mind). The point of spellstriking with a cure spell is that even if they save you still do weapon damage, which is much better than just casting the spell and having them save, which completely wastes the spell.

[ShadowcatX]

Because you want to debuff your opponent? Because you think it is cool to curse someone?

Seriously, not every single option has to be mind blowingly good.

[Korthis]

Spell Combat (Ex):

At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

is what i meant by second attack. You get your normal attack and touch attack (delivering of the spell) as a second attack (poor choice of wording on my part). I still don't see why anyone wouldn't rather just use a touch attack for a curse.
With shocking grasp you are trading chance to hit (by not using touch AC) for weapon damage and for chance to crit the spell leading to massive damage, I get that.
WIth bestow curse your are trading chance to hit for... weapon damage

[Diego Rossi]

Korthis wrote:

Ok. I was told that if you hit something with spellstike the target still gets to save vs the spell and spell resistance still applies.

** spoiler omitted **

If this is the case then what is the point of spell striking with a curse other than getting a second attack (which at this point you could be adding massive damage instead)?

PRD wrote:

Bestow Curse
...
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes

So, what has changed?

If you miss with all your weapon attacks you still hold the charge, so the spell can be delivered the next round.

[Rynjin]

Because sometimes a flat "Hey take a -4 to EVERYTHING or a -6 to this stat or have a 50/50 chance of being able to take NO ACTION" is better than dealing more damage.

It's called debuffing. Most classes don't get to debuff and damage at the same time. This works well.

Seriously it's a -2 to a TOUCH ATTACK, like that even matters.

[Diego Rossi]

Rynjin wrote:

Because sometimes a flat "Hey take a -4 to EVERYTHING or a -6 to this stat or have a 50/50 chance of being able to take NO ACTION" is better than dealing more damage.

It's called debuffing. Most classes don't get to debuff and damage at the same time. This works well.

Seriously it's a -2 to a TOUCH ATTACK, like that even matters.

He is speaking of spellstrike, not spell combat. So you trade a touch attack for a normal meele attack.

[Nicos]

Rynjin wrote:

Because sometimes a flat "Hey take a -4 to EVERYTHING or a -6 to this stat or have a 50/50 chance of being able to take NO ACTION" is better than dealing more damage.

Against most BBEG the debuff would be the better option, unless the BBEG is almost dying or the magus group have good chances to kill the BBEG in that very same turn.

[partyrico]

Something I'd like to add, brand is a [curse] cantrip, meaning this ability lets you get an extra attack every round if you're out of spells to use, quite valuable at the lower levels since you're giving up spell recall.

[Korthis]

I think that I'm being unclear. I'm not saying that bestow curse is weak or inferior.

you have two choices with the Magus
a) use spell combat to cast the spell, then attack with weapon, then attack again with weapon to deliver the curse (or vice versa)
or
b) use spell combat to cast the spell, then attack with weapon, then use a touch attack against the target's much lower touch defense

Why would I ever choose A? with B I still hold the charge is I miss.

[Emmit Svenson]

Korthis wrote:

you have two choices with the Magus

a) use spell combat to cast the spell, then attack with weapon, then attack again with weapon to deliver the curse (or vice versa)
or
b) use spell combat to cast the spell, then attack with weapon, then use a touch attack against the target's much lower touch defense

Why would I ever choose A? with B I still hold the charge is I miss.

Because you use the weapon’s crit chance, i.e. crit on a 15-20 with a keen rapier instead of on a 20 with a touch attack.

Normally, this matters more when delivering a Shocking Grasp than a Bestow Curse. However! With your GM’s approval, you can design your own curse, and if it does damage (like the lower level curses Brand and Fury of the Sun do) or ability damage or drain, that damage or drain is doubled on a crit.

Also, you do the weapon's damage, which shouldn't be negligible.

[Diego Rossi]

Korthis wrote:

I think that I'm being unclear. I'm not saying that bestow curse is weak or inferior.

you have two choices with the Magus
a) use spell combat to cast the spell, then attack with weapon, then attack again with weapon to deliver the curse (or vice versa)
or
b) use spell combat to cast the spell, then attack with weapon, then use a touch attack against the target's much lower touch defense

Why would I ever choose A? with B I still hold the charge is I miss.

Both A) and B) will hold the charge.

And anyone if your attack can deliver the spell if you cast it before starting the attack routine.

[ShoulderPatch]

partyrico wrote:

Something I'd like to add, brand is a [curse] cantrip, meaning this ability lets you get an extra attack every round if you're out of spells to use, quite valuable at the lower levels since you're giving up spell recall.

... which Arcane Mark already lets you do, and every Magus already has.

[ShoulderPatch]

Rynjin wrote:

Because sometimes a flat "Hey take a -4 to EVERYTHING or a -6 to this stat or have a 50/50 chance of being able to take NO ACTION" is better than dealing more damage.

Nicos wrote:

Against most BBEG the debuff would be the better option, unless the BBEG is almost dying or the magus group have good chances to kill the BBEG in that very same turn.

Exactly. That 50/50 curse in particular is wicked.

[Martiln]

I still don't get why so many people suggest spellstriking with arcane mark, it doesn't do any damage or cause any status effects...

[Drakkiel]

It's pretty much just to get the extra attack and not waste a spell