True. There is that weird bias to play as a human. And people say that you are playing a smowflake race if you try to play anything other than core.
The thing about core though is that, for the most part, it is made up of humans wearing fake ears/beards/teeth. That, or they are short. I want to feel like I am playing something...fantastic in my fantasy game. Not to knock the core races, they can be fun to play and encourage imagination, but sometimes we just want to be something different.
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First, dwarves saving throw ability is decidedly more powerful than anything you can get out of a feat. They make better fighters/barbarians than humans despite the lack of 2 str for this very reason; con never hurts either.
The Advanced Races really changed the "humans rule" rule. Ever since the variant-statted Tieflings and especially Aasmir came out, there is little reason to play humans. Between the 10 types of Aasmir you get +2 to 2 different stats that you can select up, no negatives, and some good energy resistances. Tieflings can do similar, though they do take penalties; but can get things like free natural attacks and natural armor. I actually see far more Aasmir than humans these days in PFS.
Tengu can get 3 primary natural attacks; very useful for any CMB-based class to trip lots of people at low-mid levels.
I generally agree that, aside from RP, there is no reason to run Halflings, gnomes, elves, and half-elves. Half-orcs have the swift drinking, which is better than a feat for many alchemist builds.
Aasimaar/Tiefling might seem to be top tier races but their abilities are very static short of a few alternate racials or such things as allowing a player to cherry pick traits from the chart.
in fact, many of the Aasimaar/Tiefling Combos tend to overlap. plus, humans tend to have better favored class bonuses, more skill points, and an extra feat or two they didn't spend on a racial option.
in fact, humans dominate the skill economy. they can also spend a feat at 1st level to have even more skills per level. something no other race is currently capable of.
a human who Sacrifices his first level feat, has 2 skill points per level above anyone with the same intelligence. plus, on int based classes, they can gain an int bonus, cancelling out the int bonus of another race.
in fact, Human Wizards, Witches and Psions whom do this, can have 2 hit points per level above another Wizard, Witch, or Psion of the same level.
that is the difference between a social wizard or street magician and your standard academy elf.
Our main reason: we allow CRB and APG, and that's about it. No strange half-dragon, quarter fiend, 1/8th celestial, birdpeople with heads of snakes and toes of a boar.
No!
We play what we like, and what will fit the setting. Sure, we keep in mind that we would like not to be useless (CHA 12 sorc7 i'm looking at you!) but we play what we like.
I've been running Kingmker for years now, two groups.
The first one was almost always human, coz they liked it. They were settling a mostly human kingdom, and played relatives or friends from long ago. Every once in a while, a dwarf or elf would join. Never had a gnome or halfling (except because of reincarnate: gnome (battle) cleric of Gorum :p)
The other group has consisted from the start: human x3, elf, dwarf.
Then it has shifted, where we have had a halfling, half-orc (x2) and gnome (reincarnate). The halfling even reincarnated into a human, and has been really angry about it. About as much as the human that was reincarnated as a gnome :D
They love the variaty, and I love them for it! Both groups.
Choose, play, and as Adamantine Dragon says don't always optimize, it becomes sooooo boring after a while ;)
The real question is why play human if you could play any of the cool races in pathfinder.
That's it.
Humans are boring and highly overrated. Just look at how pathetic (and disgusting) we are in real life.
The real question is why play human if you could play any of the cool races in pathfinder.That's it.
Agreed right there. when it comes to D&D / Pathfinder, I could play something much better than a human, unless the DM is a restrictive killjoy.
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I think it is 50/50; some characters I have a concept, and the race is (generally) flexible; I can back-story it into whatever.
There are some odd exceptions to this, where I start with wanting to play "x" race and try to make the mechanics work there, but more often I am flexible with race choice.
I will say of my 4 characters, 2 ended up humans. For my summoner, the half-elf was a no-brainer; the 1/4 point evolution favored class bonus trumped anything human or even Aasmir that could give.
My Tengu Lore Warden / Manuever Master got claw/claw/bite/manuever (all primary attacks), so at 2nd level got 4 opportunities to CMB opponents into trips (or trip/disarm/trip/grapple, as often happened). The 3 primary attacks, coupled with the Wis / Dex primaries (even at the cost of some Con) made it far more useful / powerful than a Human.
For most armoredt-fighting types, Dwarves are actually more powerful than humans; being able to hold the front line involves making saves. If it weren't for my lack of enjoyment playing dwarves I'd probably play them a LOT more often. People overlook them because they do lower your early-level damage significantly, but the gap closes to irrelevant points at high level, and the saves and hp are much more useful at that point. If you're building for the long-term a fighter/barbarian/monk type, go dwarf.
The 2 humans are a Whirlwind fighter (who if it had existed would probably be better off as a Str/Dex Tiefling); and an Evangalist Cleric Archer (who ultimately needed the feat, so probably is optimized as humans).
Humans are very flexible (that's their niche), but with all of the options available now there are often better options availabe now for many concepts.
My question to the OP is, "Why do you need an incentive to play a non-human race?"
When we're talking human, humans often give an excellent benefit to low-level characters. It can really bring an entire build together to have that extra feat at first level. Skilled scales pretty well too and its great for characters who aren't Intelligence-based, because skill points are all they really wanted from Intelligence anyway.
But take the human racial package and put it up against, say, the elf at 10th level. If you've got a human wizard and an elf wizard, who is getting more out of their racial traits? The human who took Spell Penetration as his human bonus feat? Or the elf who took Spell Penetration as a normal feat AND stacks it with his Elf Magic racial ability? It gets tough to say, and many of the non-human racial traits are like that. There's no feat that can give you Change Shape at will, so how can you compare a bonus feat to the Change Shape ability of the kitsune? Is one feat worth the six or so small skill bonuses a dwarf gets? And with the new errata that basically says you can use spell-like abilities to qualify for feats that require the ability to cast spells, is a human fighter getting Power Attack for free going to beat the tiefling fighter's ability to qualify for Arcane Strike without needing to multiclass?
These are all difficult questions, and if you feel the game doesn't give you any incentive to play a non-human race, maybe you need to stop and think what you personally look for in a racial package, and are you constructing your character's build with a short-term mindset or a long-term mindset? Because short-term at Level One, the human racials are king. But when you're high enough to have three, four feats under your belt one more usually isn't as big of a deal.
My question to the OP is, "Why do you need an incentive to play a non-human race?"
When we're talking human, humans often give an excellent benefit to low-level characters. It can really bring an entire build together to have that extra feat at first level. Skilled scales pretty well too and its great for characters who aren't Intelligence-based, because skill points are all they really wanted from Intelligence anyway.
But take the human racial package and put it up against, say, the elf at 10th level. If you've got a human wizard and an elf wizard, who is getting more out of their racial traits? The human who took Spell Penetration as his human bonus feat? Or the elf who took Spell Penetration as a normal feat AND stacks it with his Elf Magic racial ability? It gets tough to say, and many of the non-human racial traits are like that. There's no feat that can give you Change Shape at will, so how can you compare a bonus feat to the Change Shape ability of the kitsune? Is one feat worth the six or so small skill bonuses a dwarf gets? And with the new errata that basically says you can use spell-like abilities to qualify for feats that require the ability to cast spells, is a human fighter getting Power Attack for free going to beat the tiefling fighter's ability to qualify for Arcane Strike without needing to multiclass?
These are all difficult questions, and if you feel the game doesn't give you any incentive to play a non-human race, maybe you need to stop and think what you personally look for in a racial package, and are you constructing your character's build with a short-term mindset or a long-term mindset? Because short-term at Level One, the human racials are king. But when you're high enough to have three, four feats under your belt one more usually isn't as big of a deal.
to eclipse a human bonus feat, you kind of need to play a class that gets a lot of bonus feats.
in fact, a human's bonus feat, is always equivalent to the highest acquired feat in the most powerful feat chain the human has acquired. because it is a feat their bonus feat qualified them for.
many fighting styles are highly feat consuming, such as 2WF, Archery, Sword and Board, Twin Shield style, Manuevers, Style Chains, Whirlwind attack line, and the mounted combat line.
a human lets you realize an entire fighting style 2 levels earlier than normal and take utility 2 levels after. in the case of the barbarian, it is a whole extra rage power, in the case of an archery fighter, it is starting with Rapid Shot. Point Blank Shot and Precise shot, but good races other than human are tied to niche builds
the big 3 nonhuman races i read about people using on these boards are the Aasimaar, the Tiefling, and the Tengu. and most builds utilizing these 3 either utilize alternate racial traits, or splatbook racial variants from the appropriate companion.
the nonhuman races i recommend for those whom "Don't" want to run a "Zoo" the following 11 can pass off as humans, or humans with a die job or exotic condition, in lesser nonhuman heritages
- Aasimaar (usually a palette swapped human)
- Tiefling (Recommend the palette swapped human option, or minor fiendish traits at worst. good optional examples of minor tiefling appearances include Majin Etna and Koakuma)
- Sylph (palette swapped human, pale and light weight. just don't let others view you on a scale)
- Oread; (earth covers more than metal and stone, has the potential to be a palette swapped human in lesser heritages, which i recommend. at oddest, jade hair, amethyst eyes and limestone skin look cool in bishonen way. try to design your earthen features as close to human as possible)
- Undine (option to be a Palette swapped human with lesser heritages, scales optional, shades of blue and green for hair and eye color aren't too much an issue. die job optional.)
- Ifrit; (option to be a palette swapped human with lesser heritages, other than the fact that being a fiery tempered redhead fits the race, not an issue)
- Fetchling; (lesser amounts of planar heritage, like the above, allow a pallette swapped human, albino is possible, but pale with black hair also works, hair dye and contact lenses help.)
- Suli; (Palette swapped human, other than a few genie resistances, able to pass for human like the above 7 in lesser planar heritages)
- Changeling; (human with heterochromia, if people are suspicious of your humanly possible condition, wear an eyepatch over one eye)
- Dhampir (just a really pale anemic human, drinking the blood of the recently deceased will make your bloodthirst less dangerous to the locals. not an issue in settings where blood transfusions are available)
- Samsaran (pallet swapped human, blue or purple hair and eyes, are hardly an issue. go with the purple, play a conjurer, and call yourself Patchouli.)
A game I played in a decade ago was a bit more Human-centrist, with the GM saying during character creation that you should have a real reason to play another race. This served as a filter to keep those not interested in actually RPing Dwarves, etc. Mechanically, the game was hardwired into 3.0 with no real favoritism towards Humans. Elves turned out to be the real RP monsters in the party.
Dragon78 opined that: "The real question is why play human if you could play any of the cool races in pathfinder." Not the same words, but the same thrust of argument.
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I was a little disappointed when my GM suggested that a Suli would be more setting-appropriate than human for one of my characters, since I felt that human was a more mechanically solid choice.
Then I realized that not only is being able to light your arms on fire or cover them which acid, electricity, or ice really cool, but energy resistance 5 to 4/5 elements is sweet.Then I came across a trait in Ultimate campaign (Unscathed) that adds 2 to each of those energy resistances. Mundane energy damage generally caps out at d6 (unless you're taking a bath in acid or lava), so with energy resist 7 my next character can walk through the hottest desert or the coldest tundra untouched and then use a vial of acid as a pleasant exfoliant.
The best bit is the trait indicated that your energy resistance is high because of “extreme upbringing” - exactly why the elementally resistant suli was deemed more appropriate to my character, who grew up in the wilds of a region with very extreme temperatures (hot and cold).
It's nice when the mechanics and the flavour work together for a character well. Sometimes non-humans with their unique abilities can manage that better than humans.
in fact, a human's bonus feat, is always equivalent to the highest acquired feat in the most powerful feat chain the human has acquired. because it is a feat their bonus feat qualified them for.
Only if you're taking a feat chain, and only if the higher feats in the chain don't have hard requirements like BAB or skill ranks which prevent a character with many feats from taking them before a certain level.
many fighting styles are highly feat consuming, such as 2WF, Archery, Sword and Board, Twin Shield style, Manuevers, Style Chains, Whirlwind attack line, and the mounted combat line.
Sword and Board/Twin Shield: Shield bashing has same cap as TWF.
Maneuvers: Some of these chains don't have hard requirements, so you could snag something like Ki Throw a level or two early, but a lot of the fun feats (and all the Greater Maneuver feats) have BAB requirements.
Style Chains: Many have BAB/Monk level or skill rank requirements, sometimes even for the first feat. Dragon Style requires acrobatics 3, while Crane Wing requires +5 BAB. Panther Pparry and Kobold Flood are the only style ending feats that don't have level caps on them (though Snapping Turtle Clutch requires enough feats that non-fighters/monks might not be qualify at 5th level).
Whirlwind Attack: BAB +4, though with four feat pre-requisites the feats are still probably the limiting factor and the human gets it early.
Mounted Combat: This one largely doesn't have BAB/skill walls in it, though the excellent Mounted Skirmisher does.
So for at least half of your examples, in the long run a human doesn't get to the top any faster, he just picks up something extra along the way. It's good, and in some cases the early start is a big difference (like for the archer). But it's not the best racial thing ever.
Triaxians also have a bonus feat.
The question is easier to answer if you ask, why play human rather than why not.
Bonus Feat. Or - Focused Study rather that burning a feat on Skill Focus heading toward Eldridge Heritage. More bang for your buck.
Heart of the Fields. Rage cycle.
Racial Heritage for use with the Paragon Surge spell.
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Archers should be human, point blank (see what I did there?)
Otherwise, especially if variant aasmir and tieflings are legal... usually +2 in 2 relevant stats > a feat on its own; throw in dark vision and resistances and such, and you're leaving the human behind.
I really wish they would PFS-ban alternate Aasmirs. I'm sick of the number of children of the angels that are in PFS now :).
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Archers should be human, point blank (see what I did there?)
Otherwise, especially if variant aasmir and tieflings are legal... usually +2 in 2 relevant stats > a feat on its own; throw in dark vision and resistances and such, and you're leaving the human behind.
I really wish they would PFS-ban alternate Aasmirs. I'm sick of the number of children of the angels that are in PFS now :).
I get it. I understand it. It is the kind of thing I'd like to be grandfathered in rather then dropped on the campaign. My favorite new character is a tiefling whose abilities are based off those combos.
Then I realized that not only is being able to light your arms on fire or cover them which acid, electricity, or ice really cool, but energy resistance 5 to 4/5 elements is sweet.Then I came across a trait in Ultimate campaign (Unscathed) that adds 2 to each of those energy resistances. Mundane energy damage generally caps out at d6 (unless you're taking a bath in acid or lava), so with energy resist 7 my next character can walk through the hottest desert or the coldest tundra untouched and then use a vial of acid as a pleasant exfoliant.
I've wanted to make an Onispawn tiefling with Invulnerable Barbarian for just that reason. Being the barbarian that can sleep in the camp fire definitely gives off a nice impression.
Then I realized that not only is being able to light your arms on fire or cover them which acid, electricity, or ice really cool, but energy resistance 5 to 4/5 elements is sweet.Then I came across a trait in Ultimate campaign (Unscathed) that adds 2 to each of those energy resistances. Mundane energy damage generally caps out at d6 (unless you're taking a bath in acid or lava), so with energy resist 7 my next character can walk through the hottest desert or the coldest tundra untouched and then use a vial of acid as a pleasant exfoliant.I've wanted to make an Onispawn tiefling with Invulnerable Barbarian for just that reason. Being the barbarian that can sleep in the camp fire definitely gives off a nice impression.
i wanted to play one of those too.
Archers should be human, point blank (see what I did there?)
Otherwise, especially if variant aasmir and tieflings are legal... usually +2 in 2 relevant stats > a feat on its own; throw in dark vision and resistances and such, and you're leaving the human behind.
I really wish they would PFS-ban alternate Aasmirs. I'm sick of the number of children of the angels that are in PFS now :).
i disagree, i believe that PFS should allow every featured and uncommon race from the Advanced Race Guide, Without a boon requirement. maybe the tax for these new races would be a limit on faction choices.
the other races i want to see opened up to everyone in PFS without needing a boon
Ifrit
Undine
Oread
Sylph
Suli
Fetchling
Changeling
Dhampir
Samsaran
they already allow, Aasimaar, Tiefling, and Tengu, including the alternate versions. hardly a stretch to allow these 9.
i mean you already have
Summoners
Alchemists
Gunslingers
Gnomes
Druids
Ninja
Bards
all of which will draw nearly as much or more attention.
I don't believe it as a 'draw attention' problem as much as a 'carp that guy just outclasses everyone else at the table' problem.
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True. There is that weird bias to play as a human. And people say that you are playing a smowflake race if you try to play anything other than core.Ugh, this so much. That, or people accuse you of being some sort of powergamer only in it for the stats (or conversely point out how humans do it better...I don't get it). As someone who likes playing humans and other races, I never really got the "don't want to run a zoo" argument, given that adventurers are already considered oddball ragtag groups.
I will admit, though, some races do seem just mechanically more competent than others...
Considering that most of the arguments for playing one race or another on this thread all boil down to some form of mechanical advantage, those critics you deride just might have a point. Not ONE of the posts has mentioned anything to do with character or roleplay. Many have conveniently ignored the background baggage that many of these races bring with them. Strix are known and hated universally as man-killers, and need I dredge up Drow again?
Many GM's don't want a "zoo" campaign because of a preference for traditional fantasy themes which are... human centered for a very good reason.. Humans are the only sapient species we have real historical and cultural experience with.
Yes, but it is not like the cultural backgrounds for most of the races are drawn from thin air. I will say that the description of the tengu comes off kind of.... YEEAAAHHH... You can see the process of othering, both good and bad, is often prevalent in the backgrounds of many of the races which reflect on real world trends. I particularly like the treatment of some of the less 'human' races in the bestiary description such as lizardfolk (which I'll admit, are really on the fringe of what is considered a 'playable race' from the current releases). It presents a distinct culture that is mostly reacting to human imperialism and spread into their territories. You can find plenty of examples of that in history. I can't speak too much on how this plays out throughout Paizo material, since I mostly work with just a few books for setting up the system.
Plus, some of the flavor of the races are the same as with core races, but with a more distinct 'fantasty' element. Aasimars and tieflings seems to play out much like half elves and half orcs just from some of the fluff as far as societal expectations go. Also, I can not be the only one who parallels Oreads and dwarves, right?
If I could get a work around for the starting age, I think I would want to play a scion of humanity aasimar that only just discovered his heritage... and he is pissed about it.
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Considering that most of the arguments for playing one race or another on this thread all boil down to some form of mechanical advantage, those critics you deride just might have a point. Not ONE of the posts has mentioned anything to do with character or roleplay.
I consider having your cold-resistant character take a nice snooze in a snowbank in their skivvies to be roleplaying. >_>
My post boiled down to "I made this decision for character/setting reasons at the advice of my GM, and then realized there were better mechanical perks than I thought, which simultaneously reinforced the flavour." The thing is, I tend to make mechanical and flavour decisions together when I build a character. I think a lot of people do.
If you want a small, savage barbarian it makes more sense to play a goblin than a kobold, partly because goblins are wilder and partly because they have better stats. If you want to play a character with a fascination with death, dhampir and samsarans both make sense, but the samsaran is a better choice for a dedicated caster while the dhampir makes a better bard, ninja, or antipaladin. Or if you definitely want to play a dwarven warrior-priest but don't care about the exact class, the Wis bonus / Cha penalty means they're better clerics and inquisitors than oracles or paladins. Goblins make fun gunslingers and worshippers of sarenrae both because it feeds into the goblin fascination with fire and because the gunslnger/dervish dancer loves +4 Dex. I switched a character's class from Paladin to Inquisitor at the last minute because I saw him as having a higher Wis than Cha. Inquisitor gave me mechanical benefits when I gave my character a high Wis for flavour reasons; with a paladin I'd feel like I had to compromise either flavour or mechanics when assigning stats.
It's the way races are built, too. The race builder suggests picking abilities for a race that complement the flavour that you want for that race. Dwarves are described as being warriors, and get lots of abilities that make them good warriors and none that make them particularly good wizards or bards. Flavour and mechanics are supposed to support each other.
And when you find a race with flavour and mechanics that support each other and your concept, that's your reason to not be human.
... I can understand that, just that I find it kinda unfortunate. One of the big draws of fantasy is that it's, well, fantastical, and the ability to play something I can never be in real life appeals to me, which is part of the reason I love playing as non-human characters. That, and using what lore I know in order to shape the character's backstory and motivation in potentially new ways.
While I try to, most people I know don't actually do that. I am playing a Nagaji Naga Aspirant because I found the whole snake dude concept entertaining. I don't think Nagaji make particularly good druids and I don't think the Naga Aspirant is all that great of an archtype. But come on. How could you not like something that lets you turn into a naga?!? I type extra 's's in his speech (in a PbP at the moment) and he has a constrictor snake as his animal companion. He makes fun of the mammals around him for getting hurt so easy and being herbivores. He is pretty decent and I’m having a blast with him. But human druid with the dino archtype and the build straight out of the guide would be quite a bit more powerful.
However, in the group I GM most of the players don’t approach it that way. They specifically asked me to run a particular series of horror modules. I told them it was very human centric and any other races would have social problems. It was very prominent in the series and I didn’t think I could change it successfully. So I’m not going to try. Non-humans will have trouble. People who don’t speak the local language will have trouble. People that look different will have trouble.
We got a half-orc, drow, druegar, gnome, and race builder fey. Not one of them spent a single skill point to learn the local language (until halfway through the series). No skills in disguise. No magic items or spells like alter self (until about ¾ of the way through the series). None of them play anything about their race unless I specifically remind them (Is a light dazzled druegar really likely to go walk on the beach in the afternoon sun for his holiday? What? Oh I guess probably not. I'll sit inside and carve something.). They all get upset when any of the locals are scared of or prejudice against their obvious nonhuman appearance and outlander speech even though they knew that going into the series and made that choice.
They wanted the non-human race for the specific collection of bonus abilities and powers. That’s all. They play them like humans that have darkvision and that’s it. I seriously considered making the next campaign I am GM human only, but I know they would throw a fit about that. They aren’t going to change anytime soon, so I have to live with it.
Edit: I do feel I need to say that last couple of session, they have made some few attempts to play their character choices. So they are improving a little bit. But that is recent and had nothing to do with making their racial choices during PC design.
... On the issue of different racial psychologies, without wishing to stereotype overmuch, certain traits around this are worth discussing with your players, e.g. Dwarves being suspicious, materialistic and socially conservative. How does the pc fit that stereotype and if not, what are the consequences. Then the issue is addressed directly....
Already tried that. Nothing much happens unless I directly remind them their behavior doesn't make sense. Though like I said it has seemed better the last couple of session.
