Hey, I was wondering if there was something illegitimate about the following: Tiefling w/ claws, bite (from mothers' teeth or adopted tusked trait) (or Tengu w/ claws, bite), maneuver master monk with two weapon fighting. As I'm understanding it, that gives a full attack of unarmed unarmed claw claw bite (secondary) and maneuver (at 0/0/-5/-5/-5/-2). Does that sound right to you all?
Edit: Sorry, those first attacks should have -2 from TWF.
Maneuver Master Monk does not flurry.
:-) (EDIT: To the point, Feral Combat Training references Flurry of BLOWS, which Flurry of Maneuvers is not)
If they have the feat Feral Combat Training - Then yes. Otherwise they aren't allowed to flurry and combine natural attacks like those with it.
Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon—you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon, apply the effects of the natural weapon (such as a poisonous bite) for each flurry of blows attack, and so on.
The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon.
It's not compatable with Flurry, but potentially you could use NORMAL 2WF with such a combo.
Headbutts are out, because you're already using that limb for a Bite, but Kicks might be.I know some Rules Developers have written something on that, about not getting more attacks from combining nat wpns/2wf,
but I don't think there's a real FAQ and on a RAW (or even RAI) basis, Nat Wpns ARE supposed to add attacks to iteratives,
and I'm not sure why your attacks would be more limited when using 2WF than when not using it (and adding Nat Wpns).
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"At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry."
It sounds like it is counting it as a Flurry.
The Maneuver that is.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-a rchetypes/maneuver-master
Also, with that horrible of a detriment to his attack rolls, it doesn't seem like it'd be worth it...
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Also
"Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex): At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks. This ability replaces flurry of blows."
FLURRY of Maneuvers.(Sorry I don't know how to BOld things)
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/monk.html #_maneuver-master-(archetype)
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"Feral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."
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1st level Tengu Monk, with Bab of +0 and Two-Weapon Fighting, should be able to do Unarmed/Unarmed/Claw/Claw/Bite at -2/-2/-5/-5/-5.
I'd imagine those Unarmed attacks consisting of kicks/headbutts/shoulder slams/etc, since a punch would be using the same limb as a claw attack.
You can still punch and claw with the same hand.
Think of a Bear. His swing would consist of a hard smack, and in miliseconds those claws following that hard smack.
I prefer pelvic thrusting now :3
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There's a ruling somewhere, though, that says the same limb can only be used for one attack, so if you have a claw at the end of your right arm, you couldn't also use your right hand to punch, or something to that effect.
Since a Monk considers his whole body to be a weapon, it's not really an issue in this case.
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Flurry is shorthand for Flurry of Blows, which is the core monk ability. A maneuver master monk trades out flurry of blows for Flurry of Maneuvers. I think we should be specific as to which is occuring, FoB or FoM.
FoB is not usable with natural attacks except if you have feral combat training, which lets you pick one attack to use with FoB.
FoM is a normal full-attack action, that provides an extra maneuver check during it. You could absolutely TWF with a FoM and get unarmed/unarmed/claw/claw/bite at the appropriate penalties.
So, a level 1 monk maneuver master using FoM who also has TWF and claws & bite would attack at: Combat Maneuver -1/unarmed -2(from TWF)/unarmed -2/claw -5/claw -5/bite -5.
If any of those attacks were used to make a combat maneuver (such as trip, disarm or sunder) it would be at another -2 due to the FoM text giving any maneuvers performed during it a -2 penalty.
You can't use the same limb to make multiple attacks.
CRB: Combat: Natural Attacks: "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack."
You can still punch and claw with the same hand.
If you want to break the clearly stated rules in the core Combat chapter, sure.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
Don't ask me why 2WF is at the end, or why they still haven't Errata'd that.
Think of a Bear. His swing would consist of a hard smack, and in miliseconds those claws following that hard smack.
Bears don't do UAS in addition to their Claw attacks.
I prefer pelvic thrusting now :3
Are you believing that 'pelvic thrusting' is a valid UAS attack? It's not.
Only punches, kicks, and headbutts are, with monks also being able to use knees and elbows. That's all, folks.|
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Maneuver Master Monk does not flurry.:-)
If they have the feat Feral Combat Training - Then yes. Otherwise they aren't allowed to flurry and combine natural attacks like those with it.Feral Combat Training allows you to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon—you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon, apply the effects of the natural weapon (such as a poisonous bite) for each flurry of blows attack, and so on.
The feat does not allow you to make your normal flurry of blows attack sequence plus one or more natural attacks with the natural weapon. In other words, if you can flurry for four attacks per round, with this feat you still only make four attacks per round... but any number of those attacks may be with the selected natural weapon.
It's not compatable with Flurry, but potentially you could use NORMAL 2WF with such a combo.
Headbutts are out, because you're already using that limb for a Bite, but Kicks might be.
I know some Rules Developers have written something on that, about not getting more attacks from combining nat wpns/2wf,
but I don't think there's a real FAQ and on a RAW (or even RAI) basis, Nat Wpns ARE supposed to add attacks to iteratives.
"Feral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."
It's right there. You can use it with Flurry. I don't think it will combine with TWF, but that one I'm completely unsure about and on that part I have no citing or references.
I strongly think that you cannot combine TWF with Flurry of any kind. I know it won't combine with the Normal Flurry, since it basically is TWF even as the way flurry is described.
It's called Flurry of Maneuvers, because you just make maneuvers with a bonus as opposed to a normal attack or substitute a normal maneuver with no bonuses.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong. The last thing I want to do is spread the wrong information.
Here's the link for the FAQ, although I already quoted the relevant part: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9ozd
Flurry of Maneuvers doesn't have a weapon restriction like flurry of blows does, so I don't think feral combat training is relevant.
I was hesitant mostly because of the inclusion of two-weapon fighting. I never really understood how it was supposed to interact with the original flurry. The text for flurry of maneuvers is different, in that it doesn't threaten redundancy with two weapon fighting (flurry of blows says that you gain extra attacks 'as if using two weapon fighting'), and I can't see what would prohibit the two being used together.
Also, are the secondary natural attacks at -5 or -7?
Regardless, there is just vanilla Warriors using regular 2WF, not any flavor of Flurry.
Before Kazumetsa's detour, I wrote:
I know some Rules Developers have written something on that, about not getting more attacks from combining nat wpns/2wf,
but I don't think there's a real FAQ and on a RAW (or even RAI) basis, Nat Wpns ARE supposed to add attacks to iteratives,
and I'm not sure why your attacks would be more limited when using 2WF than when not using it (and adding Nat Wpns).
I'm not really sure if there was any conclusive ruling on that subject ever.
(and it may have just been JJ discussing the issue, which is... JJ)
Also, are the secondary natural attacks at -5 or -7?
-5. Flurry of Maneuvers adds a penalty of -2 on all combat maneuvers made during the Flurry of Maneuvers. If you subbed a trip attempt for a claw, it would be at -7 (-5 for secondary, -2 for FoM).
Also, are the secondary natural attacks at -5 or -7?What are you talking about?
Sorry, I was misremembering two-weapon fighting - I thought it gave a -2 penalty to all attacks that round but it's only to the main hand/offhand (which I guess is a mainknee offknee here?)
first thing to understand:
flurry of blows IS NOT flurry of Maneuvers. It is a completely different and separate thing.
Also, in this scenario, flurry of maneuvers is not impacting anything.
The real question is, is it possible to combine natural attacks and weapon attacks, as unarmed attacks are considered a light melee weapon attack.
And yes, per RAW, you can combine natural attacks and melee weapon attacks, but all natural attacks become secondary natural attacks.
Six attacks at level one? I'll see your 6 and raise you 2.
Human, summoner, synthesist
Feat 1 extra evolutions, feat two multiweapon combat
(grab a light simple weapon (brass knife for 19-20 crits (keen later) or regular dagger if you don't want to keep fixing it (summoner does get mending)... also trait heirloom weapon for cool weapons (like swordbreaker dagger)
for evolutions take arms, arms
Your eidolon comes with arms legs and claws (put claws on legs)
= 6 attacks @ -1 and 2 claw attacks @ -5
and full casting ability so @ lvl 1 take mage armor and enlarge person
(or be evil and take quadruped with same evolutions. If your gm will let you use your arms to hold weapons (synthesist says the eidolon has to have arms to cast, not to hold weapons... so front legs could be handlike such as apes or monkeys (of which some are quadrupeds)) that is still six attacks. If not its 4 attacks and later pounce with a bite added on @ the end of the attacks. If you go this route you would add 1 and 1/2 str to dmg as you only have 1 natural attack.)
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But I wanna pelvic thrust stuff to death :(((
/sigh
Spiked Armored Kilt 'nuff said.
This post reminds me of the day I did my "synthesists are banned" happy dance.Six attacks at level one? I'll see your 6 and raise you 2.
Human, summoner, synthesist
Feat 1 extra evolutions, feat two multiweapon combat
...
You and almost everybody else. I try to forget they even exist.
I asked this same question a while ago.
Feral Combat Training allows you to use your natural attacks as PART of a flurry, (i.e., you could make a bite in place of a punch,) but there is no legal way to use a flurry and get natural attacks on top of it.
You could, however, take two-weapon fighting, use it to make attacks with your feet, and combine that with claws and a bite. More feat-heavy and works better with an unarmed fighter than it does with a standard monk, but it's possible.
Six attacks at level one? I'll see your 6 and raise you 2.Human, summoner, synthesist
Feat 1 extra evolutions, feat two multiweapon combat
...This post reminds me of the day I did my "synthesists are banned" happy dance.
You and almost everybody else. I try to forget they even exist.
All the synthesist hate is odd... You could make a general summoner and have double action economy AND a 6 armed murder machine...
All the synthesist hate is odd... You could make a general summoner and have double action economy AND a 6 armed murder machine...
Six attacks at level one? I'll see your 6 and raise you 2.Human, summoner, synthesist
Feat 1 extra evolutions, feat two multiweapon combat
...This post reminds me of the day I did my "synthesists are banned" happy dance.
You and almost everybody else. I try to forget they even exist.
Sure you can, but at least then the summoner can't dump his physical stats to levels where a stiff breeze is likely to kill him. A base summoner is much less min/max munchkiny than a synthesist.
Sure you can, but at least then the summoner can't dump his physical stats to levels where a stiff breeze is likely to kill him. A base summoner is much less min/max munchkiny than a synthesist.
Maybe stat wise but two actions per turn always trumps one. I guess it depends on your Idea of a min/maxer. A true "min/max munchkiny" would want to as good as possible I would think. Yes you could tank str, dex, con and pump your magic stats but 1) you'd have to roleplay that, 2) walking around town with giant glowing armor should seem strange 3) you have to sleep some time 4) you are 1 banish/failed will save away from insta dead or useless.
Also, all a summoner really needs charisma anyway :/ A smart summoner (even a synthesist) would want a decent con for keeping his eidolon alive.I've come up with some incredibly insane synthesist builds for fun, but at the end of the day vanilla (or brood)summoner trumps synthesist any day of the week.
Back on six attacks topic... Vanilla summoner would have even more attacks per round so 9. Or cast enlarge person on eidolon, eidolon pounces and destroys everything that's level one.
wait, I thought u couldnt add flurry of blows with 2weapon atk because I was under the impression that flurry of blows was an improved version of 2 weapon atk feat the monks got for free because it states "as if u were using 2 weapon atk"? Especially since it even starts out with same stats as imp 2 weapon fighting.
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Six attacks at level one? I'll see your 6 and raise you 2.
Human, summoner, synthesist
Feat 1 extra evolutions, feat two multiweapon combat(grab a light simple weapon (brass knife for 19-20 crits (keen later) or regular dagger if you don't want to keep fixing it (summoner does get mending)... also trait heirloom weapon for cool weapons (like swordbreaker dagger)
for evolutions take arms, arms
Your eidolon comes with arms legs and claws (put claws on legs)= 6 attacks @ -1 and 2 claw attacks @ -5
and full casting ability so @ lvl 1 take mage armor and enlarge person(or be evil and take quadruped with same evolutions. If your gm will let you use your arms to hold weapons (synthesist says the eidolon has to have arms to cast, not to hold weapons... so front legs could be handlike such as apes or monkeys (of which some are quadrupeds)) that is still six attacks. If not its 4 attacks and later pounce with a bite added on @ the end of the attacks. If you go this route you would add 1 and 1/2 str to dmg as you only have 1 natural attack.)
There is this little thing:
Table: Eidolon Base StatisticsClass Level 1st
Max. Attacks 3
So, at most, you could have 2 attacks from the synthesist arms and 3 from the eidolon arms.
I'm so glad I ruled out using these things together. It stays so much simpler if you rule that natural attacks can be used as manufactured weapons, and become so if you use any manufactured weapon.
wait, I thought u couldnt add flurry of blows with 2weapon atk because I was under the impression that flurry of blows was an improved version of 2 weapon atk feat the monks got for free because it states "as if u were using 2 weapon atk"? Especially since it even starts out with same stats as imp 2 weapon fighting.
Flurry of blows works like 2-weapon fighting. However, the benefit is you can use the same weapon for all of the hits. A monk can Flurry with a 2-handed monk weapon, and deal all attacks with that weapon. However, because of the wording of Flurry, those attacks all only get 1x str modifier, not 1.5x like a normal 2-handed weapon.