Yes, I know Enhancement bonuses don't stack with themselves. However, I did run into a circumstance that made me think twice:
Magic Weapon - +1 Enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. Target: weapon touched
Fury of the Abyss (Demon Subdomain) - Enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 level on attack/damage/CMB rolls. Target: self
I'm sure there's a less obscure version of this scenario, but this was the combination that I specifically saw that made me think twice. Would a creature under the effect of Fury of the Abyss holding a weapon under the effect of Magic Weapon receive the benefits of both effects with his melee attack and damage rolls?
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They don't stack.
They are both a +X Enhancement bonus to attack and damage. Same bonus type (Enhancement), same application (attack and damage), so they definitely don't stack.
As for the enhancement bonuses for armor and shield, those don't stack either but they don't need to. Same bonus type (Enhancement) but different applications - one is an Armor bonus and one is a Shield bonus. So there can be a +X Enhancement bonus to your armor and a +X Enhancement bonus to your shield because those are two different Types of AC bonus.
I agree with DM Blake.
That's because the rules don't have to, because it's covered under the general stacking rule.
No, Shroudb, the enhancement bonus on armor is applied to the Armor bonus, and the enhancement bonus on a shield is applied to the Shield bonus. Both of those are part of your AC, but they are not "AC" bonuses because there are is no such thing as an "AC" bonus type. There is, however, an "Armor" type and a "Shield" type, and since these are different bonuses, you can have one Enhancment bonus on each of them.
Notice also that there is no "Attack" type or "Damage" type, so any Enhancement bonus that modifies your attack and/or damage rolls is an Enhancement bonus type and does not stack with other Enhancement bonuses that modify those rolls.
Here is a list of all the types for your reference:
Bonus (Alchemical)
Bonus (Armor)
Bonus (Circumstance)
Bonus (Competence)
Bonus (Deflection)
Bonus (Dodge)
Bonus (Enhancement)
Bonus (Insight)
Bonus (Luck)
Bonus (Morale)
Bonus (Natural Armor)
Bonus (Profane)
Bonus (Racial)
Bonus (Resistance)
Bonus (Sacred)
Bonus (Shield)
Bonus (Size)
Bonus (Trait)
An enhancement bonus is an enhancement bonus is an enhancement bonus.
An enhancement bonus to attack from one source does not stack with an enhancement bonus from another source.
The stacking rules are clear. They are not always logical, but they are clear.
To add more clarity:
If you hold a +2 weapon (Enhancement bonus to attack and damage) in one hand and cast Fury of the Abyss on yourself for a +4 Enhancement bonus to attack and damage) and now you attack an enemy using that +2 weapon, your attack and damage rolls will get the +4 bonus because the stacking rules say that these bonuses do not stack and that you use just the highest bonus which, in this case, is +4.
If you hold an ordinary non-magical weapon instead, you are still +4. If you decide to punch or kick the enemy, you are still +4.
One interesting use of this might be to walk around with a +1 flaming, acid, holy, keen sword and use Fury of the Abyss to grant yourself a bonus higher than +1 (for example, I'll stick with +4). Now, as long as you're using that spell, you can attack with what is effectively a +4 flaming, acid, holy, keen sword but you didn't have to pay all that gold for it.
OK, I get what you're saying, but we have a general rule that says bonuses of the same type don't stack, and a specific rule that says Armor and Shield bonuses DO stack:
In general, magic armor protects the wearer to a greater extent than non-magical armor. Magic Armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses). All magic armor is also masterwork armor, reducing armor check penalties by 1.
and
Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses.
Since specific rules always override general rules, this is why enhancement bonuses to Armor and Shields stack.
There is no such specific rule for attack and damage rolls so they don't stack, no matter the source. For example, if Fury of the Abyss had a line in it that said "This bonus stacks with other enhancement bonuses" then this specific rule would override the general rule about not stacking - but there is no such line, so it still does not stack.
as for the enhancment (attack) and enhancment (damage) (which is your RAI) i see it more like (enhancment weapon), enhancment (self) (which is my RAI).
Mine is not RAI. The Enhancement bonus type is always applied to something. Clearly, when you make an attack roll with an Enhancement bonus that modifies the roll, the Enhancement bonus is applied to that attack roll, no matter how you want to fluff it. Same for damage rolls.
Your RAI doesn't change anything. Regardless of whether you apply the Enhancement bonus to weapon, self, or the moon, it's still an Enhancement bonus on your attack roll that doesn't stack with other Enhancement bonuses on your attack rolls. Period. By RAW.
I already showed you an example of how you could still benefit from having an Enhancement bonus on a weapon and also having an Enhancement bonus on yourself (they don't stack, but there are still useful ways to get the most out of it).
It is an interesting theoretical nuance... Interesting enough to where i'd like to check out the language in the core again... I want to say that a spell that gives you an enhancement bonus is stated to 'give the character a +x enhancement bonus, and then also a weapon or whatever that also provides an enhancement bonus ALSO reads 'this gives the wielder a +x enhancement bonus... which would lead me to believe that both bonuses apply to the character, thus will not stack... I'm curious enough to go digging though just to be sure. Be funny if its not true though.
Thank you, everyone, for all of your feedback! I didn't realize this would become such a debate; and both sides are making very good points. The game I'm running in which this topic is relevant is tomorrow. Unless a clear, definitive answer is decided on by then, I'm probably going to go with they do stack, because it'll make my Goblin battle Cleric all the more fun to throw at my PC's :)
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Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat.
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies.
The only question is this: are the two effects providing the same type of bonus (in this case Enhancement) to the same "check or statistic" (in this case attack and damage rolls)? If the answer is yes, they do not stack, as per the general stacking rules.
For the record, the answer is "yes".
Bonuses do not apply to an object or creature: they apply to checks and statistics that the object or creature makes or possesses, and bonuses of the same type (generally) do not stack on the same check or statistic.
Enhancement bonuses from a +3 bow and +3 arrows do not stack. Why then would the bonuses from a sword and the hand that wields it stack?
If the enhancement bonus is improving the exact same thing directly then they don't stack.
Example: Two different sources boost attack and damage rolls should not stack.
If one of the sources gives an enhancement bonus to strength then that is ok, even though the strength bonus will affect the attack roll, and damage roll in many cases.
To go back to the shield and armour subject, an enhancement bonus on a shield provides an enhancement bonus to shield bonus to AC. An enhancement bonus on armour provides an enhancement bonus to the armour bonus to AC. So while the final impact is one thing (an improvement to AC), it is derived as the sum of the individual modifiers to AC, which include the (enhanced) shield bonus and the (enhanced) armour bonus.
It might have been better if "shield bonus" and "armour bonus" were instead "shield modifier" and "armour modifier" (and, by extension of terminology, "natural armour modifier"), such that a "bonus" is always a change to a "modifier" - this would probably clear up quite a few of the questions we get about these things. The problem being that, in Pathfinder, a "modifier" can be either positive or negative, and the items we're discussing here are (always?) bonuses.
I'm probably going to go with they do stack, because it'll make my Goblin battle Cleric all the more fun to throw at my PC's :)
That is certainly your choice, but consider the possible fallout. Once your players find out that you're interpreting Stacking so loosely, they'll find ways to stack things like this too. And when the shoe is on the other foot, with clever players breaking the game mechanics by stacking too many things into attack and damage rolls, then all of your encounters that don't feature goblin battle clerics will die, quickly and horribly, to overpowered characters with clever players.
So tomorrow's "fun" may become the system-breaking lack of fun for all the encounters after tomorrow.
@DM_Blake: Or it will lead to circular escalation of power. You allow your Goblin cleric to stack bonuses that weren't intended to stack, which means to be fair your players get to the do same thing - which in turn means that every creature you design has to stack those same bonuses, plus they have to be able to hit the enhanced PCs to provide challenge...
Such a cycle usually winds up with ridiculous Dragon Ball Z-esque 'power levels' (OVER 9000!), or with a TPK because you misjudged the strength of the challenge you tossed at the overly-buffed players .
Sure, assuming your basic ogres, trolls, zombies, dire bears, etc., are all capable of casting spells like this. Those that can't (almost everything) will be stuck without this advantage. But the players will have it.
So to get that DBZ power level, the GM will be limited to only using encounters with creatures that can compete with the new DBZ stacking rules.
Oh, I wasn't disagreeing. I should have said a "vicious circular escalation of power". It's not a situation you want to get into.
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Ok guys, lay off. This is such a corner case that you making a bunch of claims about how it will wreck his game is a load of manure.
If he says that two abilities that Enhance attack and damage separately will stack than it is fine. He is basically ruling that a weapon enhancement bonus is not the same as a physical enhancement bonus and that is fine. There are not a lot of abilities that work like that. I can't actually find another universal enhancement bonus to attack and damage.
Besides, if he does it right, his players will never know so it won't matter :-D
I think they are saying the idea itself can cause issues not this particular case since we don't know what future books will have, and most of us don't have every book that is existence right now memorized.
Really, as the GM if you want the character to have higher stats than written just do it. You don't have to justify it whatsoever. You're the GM. Just keep in mind this will effectively increase it's CR for the fight against the party.
You can give him +10 strength so his modifier increases by 5 and no one can tell you that you can't, you are the GM.
I'm in agreement with DM_Blake, but shroudb's understanding of an Enhancement bonus applying to something else first is semi-correct. Enhancement bonuses exist at different "layers" between effect and final outcome. Some apply directly (enhancement bonuses to attack/damage), and some indirectly (enhancement bonuses to various sources of AC, whether armor, shield, or natural armor).
When it's indirectly, the "Same type bonuses don't stack" rule applies at the intermediate level. For example, Magic Vestment +2 enhancement (8th level caster) on a +1 suit of armor gives you just +2, not +3. The Armor bonus to AC increases by 1, net. Casting the spell again on your non-magic shield increases the Shield bonus to AC by 2, and works just fine, because Armor and Shield bonuses stack. The Enhancement bonuses have already been applied at that point.
The layers show up when you have different bonuses that apply to the same roll or statistic, where those bonuses can also receive enhancement bonuses. Most of the time, that's just AC. There can be a lot of bonuses that apply to skills, but few of those get enhancement bonuses individually. One example is an enhancement bonus to the ability score that affects the skill, and an enhancement bonus directly to the skill - those would stack. The latter is somewhat rare (most miscellaneous bonuses to skills are competence or circumstance), though the Enchantment arcane school provides enhancement bonuses to skills as one example.
...
So.. um.. yeah, they don't stack. :)
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I understand but my point is that, whether you think they stack or not, this is not a game breaking decision. There is almost no where to go from here. It is not going to redefine the power level of the game. Sure, someone else could make a demon cleric (if you allow evil characters) and use the same combo but where else does it really matter?
It matters right now because we are in the rules section of the boards. Now if we were in the advice area people would relax more.
Agreed - for what it's worth Seriphim, your point well-understood. I would point out that a character wouldn't have to be evil to have the demon sub-domain (it's a sub-domain of both evil and chaos, so you could get away with just being chaotic).
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Yes we are in the rules section and there are obviously two sides to this argument. I actually think they do stack because they are not the same bonus to the same thing. They are the same bonus to different things. Just like if you got an enhancement bonus to ac (generic) and an enhancement bonus to your armor. This is the odd situation we are talking about.
That being said in a rules forum the argument for whether or not a ruling will break the game is not appropriate. So yes I was out of line. But I do that sometimes when someone makes silly claims lol.
Thanks for putting me back on track Waith.
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I've never seen an enhancement bonus to AC (generic). It's always an enhancement bonus to an armor or shield bonus.
The target of the spell shouldn't matter. The Arrow and the Bow example is the best comparison:
A +1 Arrow does NOT have "an enhancement bonus to the arrow's attack and damage".
A +1 Bow does NOT have "an enhancement bonus to the bow's attack and damage."
A +1 Arrow DOES have "an enhancement bonus to attack and damage".
A +1 Bow DOES have "an enhancement bonus to attack and damage".
The enhancement bonus is to the same thing, therefore it does not stack.
A suit of +1 Fullplate DOES NOT have "an enhancement bonus to Armor Class".
A +1 Heavy Steel Shield DOES NOT have "an enhancement bonus to Armor Class".
A suit of +1 Fullplate DOES have "an enhancement bonus to the armor's Armor bonus to AC".
A +1 Heavy Steel Shield DOES have "an enhancement bonus to the shield's Shield bonus to AC".
The enhancement bonus is to different things ("Armor bonus" and "Shield bonus"), therefore it does stack.
The spell Magic Weapon DOES NOT give "an enhancement bonus to the weapon's attack and damage."
The Fury of the Abyss ability DOES NOT give "an enhancement bonus to your character's attack and damage."
The spell Magic Weapon DOES give "a weapon" an "enhancement bonus to attacks and damage."
The Fury of the Abyss ability DOES give "your character" an "enhancement bonus to attacks and damage*."
The enhancement bonus apply to the same thing ("enhancement bonus to attacks and damage"), therefore they do not stack.
*The Fury of the Abyss ability actually only applies to melee attacks and melee damage (as well as CMB checks but that's irrelevant). Melee attacks are a kind of attack, and are therefore a sub-set of "attacks". The bonus still applies to the same thing, "attacks", just a specific kind of "attacks". This IS NOT THE SAME as the "Armor bonus" and "Sheild bonus" situation. Shield bonuses are not a subset of Armor bonus, and Armor bonuses are not a subset of Shield bonuses.
The question is does a +1 sword provide a +1 to attack and damage or a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage.
If they actually provide an enhancement bonus to attack and damage they may not stack.
Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat.
If the cleric ability which I admit I have not looked up does apply an enhancement bonus directly to attack and damage they should not stack.
Fury of the Abyss (Su): As a swift action, you can give yourself an enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum +1) on melee attacks, melee damage rolls, and combat maneuver checks.
"you can give yourself an enhancement bonus... on... attacks [and] damage"
And a +1 Sword ABSOLUTELY gives an enhancement bonus.
Yes we are in the rules section and there are obviously two sides to this argument. I actually think they do stack because they are not the same bonus to the same thing. They are the same bonus to different things. Just like if you got an enhancement bonus to ac (generic) and an enhancement bonus to your armor. This is the odd situation we are talking about.
They are definitely the same bonus to the same thing. They are both an enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls. They are a bonus of the same type, applying to the same check or statistic (attack roll, damage roll). There is no such thing as an enhancement bonus to a weapon. Nor is there any such thing as an enhancement bonus to a character. You can have enhancement bonuses to ability scores, attack rolls, saving throws, damage rolls, skill checks, caster level checks, spell resistance, CMB, in fact you can have one (hypothetically) to any check (roll vs DC) or statistic (numeric game mechanical feature) that an object or character may make or possess, but if the same bonus type could be applied to the same check or statistic, they do not stack (except where explicitly called out).
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"Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. "
It is absolutely an enhancement bonus to the weapon. Says so in the first sentence of the Magic Weapon spell.
"An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack."
So in this case we have an enhancement bonus to a weapon and one to a creature, as defined by RAW. The fact that they effect the same roll is irrelevant.
"Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. "
It is absolutely an enhancement bonus to the weapon. Says so in the first sentence of the Magic Weapon spell.
"An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack."
So in this case we have an enhancement bonus to a weapon and one to a creature, as defined by RAW. The fact that they effect the same roll is irrelevant.
You just quoted "gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. "
I also quoted "Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat."
These=refers to the enhancement bonuses.
That means the weapon is applying the bonuses to attack and damage rolls. The weapon is the source, not the target of the bonus.
We use shorthand. Of course we do. Otherwise the Core Rules would be like the Encyclopaedia Britannica. When we say "this weapon has a +1 enhancement bonus", we all know it means "this weapon provides a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls".
We also know that this enhancement bonus does not stack with other enhancement bonuses to attack and damage rolls, because the stacking rules tell us so.
It's this that lets us know whether an Amulet of Natural Armour stacks with a creature's own natural armour: the amulet provides an enhancement bonus to natural armour. It very explicitly does NOT provide a natural armour bonus. The amulet provides a typed bonus (enhancement) to a statistic that all creatures possess (natural armour, which is +0 for any creature type which does not have one listed). As Wraithstrike put it, the "target" is the check or statistic being affected. The source of the bonus is utterly irrelevant. The rules don't care if the bonus is being provided by a spell, item, class ability, or anything else of the sort. All they care about is whether that type of bonus is already in place for that check or statistic. If the rules did care, each type of bonus would need a further term defining the source of the bonus, such as a "Bardic Performance Competence Bonus to Attack and Damage rolls" for inspire courage, which would then stack with other competence bonuses to those rolls that weren't also Bardic Performance bonuses. Or, to use the case in point, a Weapon Enhancement Bonus to attack and damage rolls, versus a Creature Enhancement Bonus to attack and damage rolls. Since the only thing we actually know is that both abilities provide an Enhancement Bonus to attack and damage rolls, and the stacking rules say that bonuses of the same type from the same or different sources do not stack when applied to the same check or statistic, there are absolutely zero grounds for saying that they stack.
Again: is an enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls being provided by both abilities, and do bonuses of the same type (enhancement) stack on the same check (attack roll) or statistic (damage roll)?
I'm quite willing to be convinced I'm wrong, but I am also very confident that if one of the design team looks at this thread they will agree with me (if not necessarily for the reasons I've stated). Because you somehow have to convince me that an enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls is not an enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls. I suspect that to be kinda tricky to pull off.
Wow. This is some bad rules lawyering.
An enhancement bonus CANNOT stack with an enhancement bonus.
The PC has one bonus, the weapon the other. Pick the one you want.
When you use the weapon, you use it's bonus. Your attack roll, not the weapon's.
Were you to two weapon fight, you could use a +5 sword in one hand and a regular one getting +4 from the spell in the other. Your attacks would be +5 and +4. Not +9 and +4.
Enhancement bonuses do not stack, even if they come from different sources.
The shield and armour enhancements are exempted specifically in the rules. The fact that they are specifically mentioned is an argument against the enhancement bonuses stacking, not for it, because were it allowed, it wouldn't need to be mentioned.
Just because you'd like it to be so does not make it so. Bonuses of the same type do not stack on the same roll, unless specifically exempted.
"Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. "
It is absolutely an enhancement bonus to the weapon. Says so in the first sentence of the Magic Weapon spell.
"An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack."
So in this case we have an enhancement bonus to a weapon and one to a creature, as defined by RAW. The fact that they effect the same roll is irrelevant.
Incorrect. The fact that they affect the same roll is VERY relevant. The target of the Magic Weapon spell is a weapon, yes, and the target of the Fury of the Abyss ability is a character, yes, but both of these targets are granted "an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls."
Just like you quoted. Allow me to apply reduction to your quote. (This is not meant to be mean-spirited, but just a form of clarification)
"Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. "
"Magic weapon gives a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. "
"Magic weapon gives a enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. "
enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. "
The spell is targeted on a weapon, and the weapon gets the bonus, and then the weapon APPLIES the bonus to the same thing Fury of the Abyss does.
This is the same exact situation of having a +1 magic arrow and a +1 magic longbow. They both have an enhancement bonus, they're both different sources. But you're not arguing that they stack, are you? Everyone knows they don't.
Avon would care to explain why the book keeps saying the bonus is "to" or "on" the attack and damage rolls if that is not what it means?
I am sure if the book said enhancement bonus "to" or "on" saves you would not say they stacked.
By your logic a cloak of resistance has the bonus resistance applied to the cloak, but the resistance spell is on the character so they would stack.
I'm not saying they do? That's not my logic at all...
A cloak of resistance grants a +1 resistance bonus to saves, the resistance spell grants a +1 resistance bonus to saves, so they don't stack...
But the confusion here is that the stacking rules don't care about the source of the bonus, just what it applies to.
Yes, you could say, in every day common vernacular that the Magic Weapon spell "applies" to the weapon. And it does. You need to target the weapon. But what the spell does is give the weapon an enhancement bonus to attacks and damage. That's what the bonus applies to, and that's what stacking rules care about.
So even though the spell is targeted on the weapon, and gives the weapon the bonus, the bonus itself is on the same thing that the bonus from Fury of the Abyss is on. And since both of these bonuses are "enhancement" bonuses, they therefore do not stack.
Again, this is NOT the same situation as Shield and Armor bonuses to AC. A magic shield's enhancement bonus is NOT "to Armor Class" it's on the shield's "Shield bonus" to Armor Class. A magic armor's enhancement bonus is NOT to "Armor Class" either, it's on the armor's "Armor Bonus" to Armor Class.
So while ultimately the bonuses end up being for the same thing, they are NOT applied to the same thing.
I'm going to make up a spell. I'm going to call it "Self-forged Body".
Its target is "You" and its range was "Personal". The effect of the spell is that it turns your skin into warforged composite plating, and the effect was "grants your character a +2 enhancement bonus to your armor bonus" (just "armor bonus", not "natural armor bonus").
This spell WOULD NOT STACK with a magic suit of armor or the Magic Vestment spell. Even though those two things "apply" to a thing you wear, and "Self-forged Body" applies to yourself, the effect of all three of these things are identical. They all grant "an enhancement bonus to your armor bonus to AC". They do not stack.
Hmm... and since a weapon doesn't make attack or damage rolls (except a dancing one, I guess), the bonus provided doesn't ever help the character wielding it! An enhancement bonus to armour doesn't change the armour bonus it provides, it makes the AC of the armour go up when it's attacked as an object! Cloaks of resistance get their bonus only on their own saving throws, and don't apply it to the character's saves!
/reductio ad absurdum
I don't think anyone is claiming that, Chemlak. A magic weapon's bonus applies on attack and damage rolls made with it. A suits armor bonus explicitly increases the AC of the wearer, so an enhancement bonus to a suit's armor bonus applies to the AC of the wearer as well.
But just cause the Magic Weapon bonus applies to "attack and damage rolls made with the weapon" doesn't mean it suddenly stacks with Fury of the Abyss. Fury of the Abyss's bonus applies to "melee attacks, melee damage, and CMB checks" that the affected character makes. So the bonuses have different criteria for when they apply, but not how they apply. (The how is "an enhancement bonus" for both of them).
So there could be a situation where it's still beneficial to have both running on your character at the same time. Say you're affected by Fury of the Abyss for a +2 enhancement bonus, and using a dagger with Magic Weapon for a +1 enhancement bonus.
On all melee attacks and melee damage rolls with the dagger, you'd use Fury of the Abyss's +2 enhancement bonus, since the magic dagger is applying it's own enhancement bonus to those same rolls, and enhancement bonuses to the same thing never stack. But then you try to throw the dagger at someone. Well, Fury of the Abyss only applies to melee attacks and melee damage. So obviously you get no benefit from Fury of the Abyss when making a ranged attack with the dagger. But you do get the +1 enhancement bonus from the dagger, since you're making an attack and damage roll with the dagger.
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Right so in some search after I went home I come back having changes my position. I misses the first line about bonuses.
"Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies."
My assumption that bonuses could be given to a item or person separately what flawed. A bonus, no matter where it comes from is always going to a stat or check. And since same bonuses don't stack I have to agree with the majority here.
Yay! Progress through learning!
Well aware nobody was claiming that, Avon (hence the reductio ad absurdum: taking the logical consequences of an hypothesis to a ridiculous conclusion), and you definitely make a good point about the circumstances in which having both provides a benefit.
Seriphim: one of us! One of us! That's basically the argument I've been making since I quoted the stacking rules upthread: it doesn't matter where the bonus of type "x" is coming from - they don't stack if more than one bonus of that type applies to a specific check or statistic. Which is also what makes Avon's example a truly elegant one, since it differentiates between a melee attack roll and a ranged attack roll for a character with an effect that applies to one and not the other.