Someone noted when I was talking about the damage you can do with a lance/spirited charge, someone pointed out that the abilities double/triple the dice as well as the straight damage the weapon does.
IE
Lance 1d8+17 (friend of mine's character with Dragoon spear benefits, +1 lance and Power attack) so it does
2d8+34 when used as part of a charge attack?
and 3d8+51 with spirited charge and part of a charge?
Does this effect stack with Vital Strike and how would that affect the extra damage as part of a charge?
Would it be2d8+17
4d8+34
6d8+51?
In answer to your first question: yes, those calculations are correct.
In answer to your second question: no. Vital strike cannot be used as part of a charge, so this situation would never arise. Even if it did, you would apply critical logic IE the dice is added to the total, not multiplied -- so 2d8,3d8,4d8 in each of your respective conditions.
In answer to your first question: yes, those calculations are correct.In answer to your second question: no. Vital strike cannot be used as part of a charge, so this situation would never arise. Even if it did, you would apply critical logic IE the dice is added to the total, not multiplied -- so 2d8,3d8,4d8 in each of your respective conditions.
Gonna have to disagree on this one. You aren't charging, your mount is.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge.
If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge.
Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
So the vital strike build is AOK and a great way to add to charge damage.
Based on the wording, though murky, I believe the lance and the spirited charge multiply the vital strike, as it counts as weapon damage, so:
6d8+51
Our DM rules that he's doing something to the effect of 54 damage average sop no it doesnt work.
He's also not allowing him to dual weild lances though theres no technical reason you cant lol
You're DM sounds like he's picking on a martial having nice things. Does he disallow a lot of spells for casters?
6d8+51 is ~75 DPR. That's FAR from crazy.
A good rule of thumb is if it's multiplied on a crit, it's multiplied on spirited charge. I have seen arguments both ways on the vital strike issue, and personally I say no, since at the end of the mounts charge you can make one attack and not iteratives, which is what you would lose out on using vital strike in the first place (don't worry, a good mounted charge character still one shots almost anything of an equal CR, so the martials still get nice things).
As for dual wielding lances, it follows the same schools of thought. If it is allowed (to which I say no again, you don't two weapon fight on a charge) then RAW you would only get bonus damage on one of them (See all of the RAGELANCEPOUNCE debate, which I do actually allow but limit the bonus damage to the first attack). Again, mounted lance characters do a ton of damage, and don't need much help. I'm still confused as to why more people write off the cavalier class, since it truly is a powerhouse.
A good rule of thumb is if it's multiplied on a crit, it's multiplied on spirited charge. I have seen arguments both ways on the vital strike issue, and personally I say no, since at the end of the mounts charge you can make one attack and not iteratives, which is what you would lose out on using vital strike in the first place (don't worry, a good mounted charge character still one shots almost anything of an equal CR, so the martials still get nice things).
As for dual wielding lances, it follows the same schools of thought. If it is allowed (to which I say no again, you don't two weapon fight on a charge) then RAW you would only get bonus damage on one of them (See all of the RAGELANCEPOUNCE debate, which I do actually allow but limit the bonus damage to the first attack). Again, mounted lance characters do a ton of damage, and don't need much help. I'm still confused as to why more people write off the cavalier class, since it truly is a powerhouse.
RAW says Vital Strike needs an attack action and an attack action is precisely what you get at the end of a mount's charge.
On top of that Vital Strike calls it's bonus dice weapon damage, and spirited charge and lance say to double the weapon's damage.
RAW 6d8.
As to dual wielding, TWF needs a full attack to work, so no such luck with the mounts charge. So no to two lances, yes to vital strike, RAW.
I have to agree with the positive response to vital strike. Lance combined with Spirited Charge is triple damage. According to my understanding, when you multiply damage, that includes all benefits that are multiplied in a crit as well (i.e. damage dice, STR, enchantment bonuses). So 3d8+51, and Vital Strike makes that a 6d8+51.
Ouch, a critical at that rate would be 18d8+153!
Edit: That's 75 DPR normal and 225 per critical.
I'm not trying to troll bait here, but all it says for mounted charges is that you gain the benefit of the mounts charge when you make an attack at the end of the charge, not that you get an attack action (which is a specific type of standard action, i.e. you don't get to use vital strike at the end of a charge, with iterative attacks, or as an attack of opportunity).
So, AT MY TABLE, vital strike cannot be used on a mounted charge. Furthermore, if you do allow it, since those dice are not multiplied on a critical hit they are not multiplied on a spirited charge. For simplicities sake, consider each additional multiplier a new set of the original damage.
An example:
My halfling cavalier has str 18, a +1 flaming lance, vital strike, and spirited charge. He charges on the mount.
Rules as I percieve they are written and intended: lance base 1d6+7 is added three times (once for the base, a second time for charging, and a third for spirited charge) to become 3d6+21+1d6(fl). On a crit you add another base set of damage since that x2 is treated as a plus one on the multiplier to make the damage 4d6+28+1d6(fl).
Rules as you percieve they are written and intended: lance base 1d6+7 is added together three times (once for base, once for mounted charge, and once for spirited charge) to become 3d6+21+1d6(fl)+1d6(vs). On a crit it becomes 4d6+28+1d6(fl)+1d6(vs).
The reason mounted charging and spirited charge don't multiply everything is the old rule of thumb that doubled doubles becoume triple. If you wish to read it the other way, feel free, but RAW doesn't support your argument, RAI has never supported that argument, and my interpretation is both plenty powerful and makes the most sense.
I'm not trying to troll bait here, but all it says for mounted charges is that you gain the benefit of the mounts charge when you make an attack at the end of the charge, not that you get an attack action (which is a specific type of standard action, i.e. you don't get to use vital strike at the end of a charge, with iterative attacks, or as an attack of opportunity).
Um, what kind of action are you making an attack with?
Actions In Combat
Table: Actions in Combat
Standard Action
Attack (melee)
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge.
If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge.
Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
You get an attack at the end of your mount's charge. This attack is the same as if you hadn't moved at all, except it cannot be a full attack and it gains the benefits of charging without having actually charged. The mount charges and you still have a full round action worth of actions, EXCEPT for a full attack. You have a standard action and a move action. That standard action gives you the chance to use vital strike.
When you use that standard action you use an attack action. You can use Vital Strike when you make an attack action. Vital Strike is weapon damage. The lance and spirited charge and cavalier's supreme charge all multiply weapon damage. Vital Strike does not mention anything but critical damage being exempted.
It's a pretty simple logic chain once you understand that all the mount's charge has done is deprive you of a full attack action, which is different from an attack action and has nothing to do with vital strike's usefulness.
So you have used rule 0 at your table to overturn a legal damage source. Congratulations, martials can't have nice things.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
See the note in the link below:
Multiplying damage from multiple sources
The vital strike FAQ is irrelevant, because a mounted character isn't charging, the mount is. Their attack (standard action) simply gains it's benefits.
The multiplying damage one, however, seems to say that vital strike is not multiplied. My mistake.
So damage should be:
1d8 vital strike +
1d8+17 Lance +
1d8+17 charge multiplier +
1d8+17 spirited charge +
2d8+34 critical
So 4d8+51 and 6d8+85.
But Vital strike is AOK still.
|
See the note in the link below:
Multiplying damage from multiple sourcesThe vital strike FAQ is irrelevant, because a mounted character isn't charging, the mount is. Their attack (standard action) simply gains it's benefits.
The multiplying damage one, however, seems to say that vital strike is not multiplied. My mistake.
So damage should be:
1d8 vital strike +
1d8+17 Lance +
1d8+17 charge multiplier +
1d8+17 spirited charge +
2d8+34 criticalSo 4d8+51 and 6d8+85.
But Vital strike is AOK still.
Fair enough point. I would agree with the ruling as a GM.
The mounted charging character still isn't getting a full action. He gets a single attack. He can't move, he can't make a full attack so he doesn't get a standard action, he gets one attack. Vital strike takes the Attack Action, which IS NOT THE SAME THING. All of the wording and FAQs are murky, and muddle the issue, and RAW can be debated, but the only one that has a real leg to stand on is the one that works like all other charges (since if a rule is unclear, you follow a similar rule).
|
|
The FAQ wording isn't murky, in my opinion, it is the whole mounted combat that is murky.
I don't believe that a mount should get a full attack and the rider get a full attack if they are both right up against their opponent, yet many a GM will allow it.
Visually (when I imagine it) it is impossible to do both at the same time (which is when rider and mount actions go off.
Also, it is assumed (by me) that the move action is taken by the rider to guide the mount, therefore leaving him a standard action to make his attack. However, I would not fault a GM that allowed a player to use or deny said player the ability to use Vital Strike.
EDIT: After reading the Mounted Combat section, because YOU as a rider receive all of the penalties and bonuses from a charge, I would derive that you are also taking the full round action. Therefore, I would not allow the Vital Strike, after all.
The mounted charging character still isn't getting a full action. He gets a single attack. He can't move, he can't make a full attack so he doesn't get a standard action, he gets one attack. Vital strike takes the Attack Action, which IS NOT THE SAME THING. All of the wording and FAQs are murky, and muddle the issue, and RAW can be debated, but the only one that has a real leg to stand on is the one that works like all other charges (since if a rule is unclear, you follow a similar rule).
You still get a move and a standard when your animal charges. Attack (Melee) is a standard action. What's not to get here?
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
So you have not used a move action, your mount has. Move action still intact. Want proof?
You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast.
...
Mounts in Combat: Horses, ponies, and riding dogs can serve readily as combat steeds. Mounts that do not possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill) are frightened by combat. If you don't dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a mount.
...
Fast Mount or Dismount: You can attempt to mount or dismount from a mount of up to one size category larger than yourself as a free action, provided that you still have a move action available that round. If you fail the Ride check, mounting or dismounting is a move action.
So we've still got our move action, and we can clearly still make a standard action
Actions In Combat
Table: Actions in Combat
Standard Action
Attack (melee)...
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
What's murky here? I admit error on the multiplication of vital strike, making it much weaker, but there's no problem regarding the attack action.
Please show me where the attack (melee) standard action is NOT what vital strike uses. The only reason it omits (melee) is because there are other attack actions (like ranged and unarmed) that can also apply vital strike.
Dr. Calvin has it by RAW here I believe.
When a mount charges (full-round action) the rider (who has not used any actions yet) gets the benefit of the charge.
The rider could draw his lance as a move action, and then standard action attack at the end of the mount's charge, and get the 2x damage for using a lance on a charge.
Alternately, he should be able to get Vital Strike, because he is spending his standard action to attack (what vital strike has been clarified to require), and should still get the bonus from the mount's charge.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
There are two things here that say this works as a standard charge. The first is the assumption that you get AN ATTACK (singular, refferring to the option to make an attack at the end of a normal charge) at the end, and the second is the phrase 'while charging on horseback' inferring that you are charging along with the mount. I can further argue that since the mount is moving on your turn it's using your six seconds to do the charging and since that time overlaps you don't get to live it at the end a second time, and that you guys are purposefully trying to find rules that goob the game in unneccesary ways so you quite possibly have control issues. None of you have come up with any rules quotes that say you get a standard action at the end of a charge, so none of you have come up with a way to vital strike at the end of a charge.
As for what you did post: 'You move at the mounts speed, but the mount uses it's action to move' implies that you both used a move action (the extra clarification is so that people know the mount doesn't have that action left either or people would be goobing this the other way)
'A mount can move up to it's normal speed before you cast.' Yep, if a mount moves or you move, the move action is gone but the standard action is still there.
'If your mount moves more than 5 feet you only get a single melee attack.' Wow, this is looking more and more like standard combat rules, where the mount simply becomes your legs...
So since none of that is about charging, but it all works like normal melee combat, and the wording on charging on a mount seems to imply it works the same as a normal charge, and charge is a full round action, why do you suspect charging on a mount wouldn't be a full round action? No vital strike at my table.
As for the pounce issue, you only get the full attack at the end of a charge if YOU have pounce, not the mount, and there was some clarification on this from Sean, basically you get the attacks, but the multiplied damage would only apply to the first attack. Damned if I can find that thread though...
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).There are two things here that say this works as a standard charge. The first is the assumption that you get AN ATTACK (singular, refferring to the option to make an attack at the end of a normal charge) at the end, and the second is the phrase 'while charging on horseback' inferring that you are charging along with the mount. I can further argue that since the mount is moving on your turn it's using your six seconds to do the charging and since that time overlaps you don't get to live it at the end a second time, and that you guys are purposefully trying to find rules that goob the game in unneccesary ways so you quite possibly have control issues. None of you have come up with any rules quotes that say you get a standard action at the end of a charge, so none of you have come up with a way to vital strike at the end of a charge.
How exactly, do you make an attack? By spending a standard action to attack. The rider spends a free action to guide their mount with knees, and directs the mounts movement from that. The mount uses its full-round action to charge. The rider still has not used their standard or move action.
If you wanted, you could direct your mount to charge (free action guide with knees) make a full-attack with a composite bow (happens at midpoint of movement), and then the mount could make its charge attack at the end of its charge. The mount charging does not use the riders actions.
As for what you did post: 'You move at the mounts speed, but the mount uses it's action to move' implies that you both used a move action (the extra clarification is so that people know the mount doesn't have that action left either or people would be goobing this the other way)
I disagree. "but the mount uses it's action to move" is implying you DO NOT use your move action, but the mount's instead, which makes sense.
'A mount can move up to it's normal speed before you cast.' Yep, if a mount moves or you move, the move action is gone but the standard action is still there.
You could still use your move action to draw a weapon, or to stash an item or any other "move equivalent" action.
'If your mount moves more than 5 feet you only get a single melee attack.' Wow, this is looking more and more like standard combat rules, where the mount simply becomes your legs...
And no one ever quotes the whole thing. "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack."
This pretty much says you could make a full-attack if you didn't have to wait for the mount to get there. Again implying that the rider did not spend their actions for the mount to move/charge.So since none of that is about charging, but it all works like normal melee combat, and the wording on charging on a mount seems to imply it works the same as a normal charge, and charge is a full round action, why do you suspect charging on a mount wouldn't be a full round action? No vital strike at my table.
As for the pounce issue, you only get the full attack at the end of a charge if YOU have pounce, not the mount, and there was some clarification on this from Sean, basically you get the attacks, but the multiplied damage would only apply to the first attack. Damned if I can find that thread though...
Yes, the mount charge works like a normal charge, except that the rider doesn't have to spend their full-round action charging. Only the mount spends their full-round action to charge.
As for the pounce issue, yes, you need to have pounce to get off a full-attack (melee) at the end of your mounts charge. If the mount has pounce, it gets to make its full-attack at the end, and you would get your one swing (via standard action) with the charge benefits.
You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.
Thanks for playing. Your mount moves and uses its move action. You still get yours. Which means you get your standard action too.
Like: Attack (melee)
Which applies the charging bonuses from your mount using it's FULL round action to charge.
Meanwhile I use my move action to issue a challenge, then I use my standard action to drop some lance/spirited charge/challenge/vital strike pain down on my enemies.
Do whatever you want at your table, but it's taking nice things from martials that are totally legal.
You might also take note that mounted archers get FULL attacks while poor lancers do not. If you're nerfing vital strike, I'd get that one too before one of your players reads the mounted combat rules.
|
|
What is a charge? Up to Double movement with an attack at the end gaining a plus two too hit.
I mean the DC 10 Ride Check.
EDIT: I am still on the fence whether I would allow Vital Strike with the mounted charge. I probably would, but being clear, this would be a GM's call for me. Like I said before, I do not believe that the mounted combat rules are clear, and do not agree with some of the Ride rules, but I guess that from the perspective that if a character expends resources (i.e. - skill points, feats, gold, etc.) I should not penalize him for it, but I would want to talk to the player about my understanding of the rules, and what I would allow and what I might be hesitant about.
Right now, I am leaning towards allow it, but by RAW, I don't think it is meant to be used. Because regardless of whether or not you are using your mount's movement, you are still making a Charge, and by rules a Charge is not an Attack action. It is its own special action.
By FAQ, Jason says specifically that the Attack action is a SPECIFIC standard action, which implies that Charge is its own SPECIFIC action that a Vital Strike will not work with.
Of course, this is all rules lawyering. Like I said, as a GM, I am inclined to allow it, however you all seem to be intent on arguing RAW. In which case, as I have presented, would not be allowed.
Given that Vital Strike works on a mounted charge (not that I think it does, but that's not the issue I'm adressing), the regular lance charge would do 3d8+(bonus*2).
Benefit: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount.
So, a lance deals "double damage". What does that mean?
Multiplying Damage
Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
...
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.
The section above tells us how to do "double damage". I trust this is clear? Also, note the exception.
These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
The bonus damage from Vital Strike comes in the form of bonus dice. The rule for multiplying damage states that bonus dice are not multiplied. The feat itself confirms that this extra damage is not to be multiplied on a crit - a helpful reminder on the rule for multiplying damage.
Which part of this is unclear or in doubt?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In this FAQ SKR makes it clear that a lance only does double damage from the back of a charging mount. In this quote SKR specifically states "If YOU are mounted, the MOUNT is making the charge, YOU are NOT making a charge".
We also know from the Mounted Skirmisher feat that normal is "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action".
the Vital Strike FAQ says " Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action."
What does that mean? It means you still have your full complement of actions, you can Vital Strike with a lance from the back of a charging mount, and you can do:
Vital Strike + Spirited Charge= 3x weapon Spirited charge + 1x weapon Vital Strike + 3x STR, Enhancements, and static bonuses + precision and weapon properties
or
Greater Vital Strike + Spirited Charge= 3x weapon Spirited Charge + 3x weapon Greater Vital Strike + 3x STR, Enhancement, and static bonuses + precision and weapon properties.
You can Vital Strike from the back of a Charging mount, but Vital Strike damage dice are "bonus dice" and arent' multiplied by Spirited Charge. Essentially, you'll just figure your Spirited Charge damage normally, and then add in your additional Vital Strike dice. If you happen to be using Devastating Strike, that static damage bonus will be multiplied by Spirited Charge.