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So, quick question:
I'm kind of bad at remembering every scenario that I've played before. I took a low-level character into a scenario that I've played through before; I told the GM as soon as I realized the problem, and I didn't get a record sheet. Had I survived, I would not have "counted" this game for the purposes of XP, money, or gear, as far as I know. Does the character's death "count" in PFS, or is this basically just a wash?
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My reading of the Guide states that a person only receives a Chronicle for playing (the first time) or GMing (the first time). I am unclear how a Chronicle or conditions are to be applied to a PC that is, for all purposes of bookkeeping, not there.
I have replayed two scenarios (once to make a legal table, once to see if I would be happy with the version of a PC after the forced rebuild). I didn't expect or ask for a chronicle is those instances. Both times I cleared it with the GM well in advance.
If replaying (how common is it?) is something that can only put the PC at risk, then it would seem that the not at all discrete position is that players should not replay scenarios.
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I read that section of the Guide differently. It specifically states you can never have more then 1 player chronicle and 1 GM chronicle for a scenario. It also says you only get a chronicle for the first time you complete a scenario.
With that I let people replay to make tables with their own characters. They expend no resources, the get no chronicle, and if they die the character remains alive.
In that section is states that replaying is just for fun, so why take the fun out of it by giving them the risk of loosing that character so others can play?
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you dont get XP, gold or anything useful. I have played one twice. I took the chronicle so could track the resources I used. If you dont die or use anything than I would say you dont need one. Yes the rule is only 1 player and 1 GM. If you die in a scenario how else are you going to document your death and lose of gold or PP. could use a piece of paper I suppose but for me Ill use a chronicle sheet to track it with.
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Venture officers aren't the rules police for the campaign. (at least that is how i understand it) If you are running and organizing an event go by what you feel is best for your event. If an official ruling comes from campaign leadership (mark, mike, or john) then go by that.
Right, but if you're replaying a scenario and aren't supposed to get anything on a chronicle sheet, how would it be tracked? How could it be reported? How does someone who was never there die?
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The bigger question here is, if scenarios can be replayed for no credit and conditions can change, can a character have two chronicle sheets for the same scenario (with a lot of crossing out)?
This is the easiest answer; can't see why not except that the PFS guide says no. Might be time to change it to yes unless there's a reason.
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This is actually a grey area. There are no specific rules stating whether a replay death is permanent or not. Or even if any of your consumables are actually used up.
One camp believes that since you don't get a Chronicle sheet there is no way to actually record the death or any other conditions on your Chronicle stack. It would not be correct for the GM to note this on a previous Chronicle (that they were not responsible to complete and sign). While the other group believes "all the risk for no reward."
Of course the character could be reported as dead online, but this does not solve the problem of recording it on the character documentation which is the final record of the character.
You have to check with your GM to see how they will rule a replay death.
I have no idea how this would be recorded on your Chronicle stack since you only get 1 Chronicle as a player and one as a GM per adventure (beyond the level 1 exception).
If your character dies, your character dies.
Play a pregen.
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Do you have any kind of citation for that, Tim?If your character dies, your character dies.
Play a pregen.
Given that the most common reason for doing this is to fill in a table to let everyone play, and that the pregens are not always the best fit to round out a party, I think that punishing someone for using their own character effectively as a pregen to allow everyone to play is a little ... mean. If a pregen dies, people always assign the death to their next free PFS number. I think they should be allowed to do the same in this case.
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But if you dont get a cronical sheet, how does your charcter die?
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Its not mean. Why should you be allowed to play your character, use your stuff and not have any negatives. I know it was discussed and ruled on somewhere on here, but havnt found it. For me the risk is part of this game, so playing a pregen wasnt fun for me so played my own knowing could die.
My understanding was that the purpose of the replay rule was to let players play and for players to have fun. The idea of "all risk, no reward" is not one I am willing to endorse as universally fun. That is likely why there are rewards for the risks in standard play. The only possible reason I could fathom to implement a policy where the re-playing player puts a PC at risk would be to discourage outrageous risk-taking on behalf of those players.
I also think (as I understand what you have written, Jeff; please correct me if I am wrong in my interpretation) that you are applying your own standards of what constitutes "fun" as a rationale to support a position you already endorse without further reasoned justification. This isn't a severe criticism; I doubt that most people on the forums want to read lengthy, dry, and thoroughly cited posts in order to understand a point. But I do think the 'this is how I have fun' (where that I is any of us as individuals) argument is one that is hard to apply across the board.
Now, I do want to be clear that my position that there should be no risk in replaying a scenario. I would prefer that replaying players not use the opportunity to limit the amount of resources expended by the other players (thus effectively limiting the cost of the other, regular players), but I don't think I know how to write that into a rule for the campaign. This is not to say that I don't see why some people feel there should be consistency in risk, but consistency would seem to demand consistency (risk without reward is inconsistent).
My thought on the subject (at the moment; I am more than willing to reconsider).
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Don has summed things up neatly. Its a grey area. This wrinkle may be ironed out with the next guide to Pathfinder Society Organized play. It may not.
As Don pointed out, there is one camp that goes with no reward no risk....your just there to fill in space.
Another camp goes with all risk no reward.
I fall into the no reward no risk crowd.
To the OP, i wish I could provide a more concise answer.
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But you can play for no risk no reward, it's called a pregen. Other wise I bring my summoner along and use my summon monster scrolls or raise dead scroll or how about my breath of life scroll for free. Im not trying to be contrite here, but I dont like the idea of using up expensive stuff for free.
simple fix would simply refer to a CHRONICLE as what you get for playing for credit and a chronicle sheet is what you may have for book keeping for no credit. Now for me, the second one is not really a chronicle cause CANT have 2 player credits. It is just a tracking sheet for expensives, nothing more. A place holder in line so I know what I spent to bribe guards, or potions to heal someone with all the items and boxes crossed off. Simple, no need to change anything, or add anything.
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But you can play for no risk no reward, it's called a pregen. Other wise I bring my summoner along and use my summon monster scrolls or raise dead scroll or how about my breath of life scroll for free. Im not trying to be contrite here, but I dont like the idea of using up expensive stuff for free.
All characters are supposed to be moderated by the rules of PFS so that they come out to roughly the same power level. So you shouldn't be generating any unfair benefit by using the consumables on your sheet, because they should be of roughly the same nature as those of any other character or pregen of a level appropriate to travel with that party.
I will admit that there is a valid argument that you might be more likely to use your scrolls if you knew that they would not get crossed off the sheet at the end of the game - in a game where you were playing for credit you might choose to let another party member stay dead rather than use your scroll to bring them back.
However when someone is being good-natured enough to give up their evening of playing for credit, to replay something that they have already played before, it seems wrong (to me) to thank them for that by forcing them to either play a pregen, or risk their own character for no reward. The latter is likely to force some people into meta-gaming where they will use their knowledge of the previous run to minimise the danger for their character. If there is no risk to them, they are more likely to let the game play out along the actions of the other first-time party members.
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Given that the most common reason for doing this is to fill in a table to let everyone play, and that the pregens are not always the best fit to round out a party, I think that punishing someone for using their own character effectively as a pregen to allow everyone to play is a little ... mean. If a pregen dies, people always assign the death to their next free PFS number. I think they should be allowed to do the same in this case.Do you have any kind of citation for that, Tim?If your character dies, your character dies.
Play a pregen.
The problem of allowing someone to replay with no risk (regardless of whether there is reward or not) is it allows them to do things that their character would not normally do. Being crazy and running pellmell into the think of battle.
There has to be risk, otherwise its skews the experience at the table for the other players.
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The problem of allowing someone to replay with no risk (regardless of whether there is reward or not) is it allows them to do things that their character would not normally do. Being crazy and running pellmell into the think of battle.
I will admit that there is a valid argument that you might be more likely to use your scrolls if you knew that they would not get crossed off the sheet at the end of the game - in a game where you were playing for credit you might choose to let another party member stay dead rather than use your scroll to bring them back.
All of which the same player could do with a Pregen, anyway.
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Let's see. How can playing a pregen be no risk, if you are going to be risking your regular PC, you would risk losing a PFS number when using a pregen for credit in the same circumstances.
Not to mention things like using the pregen's wand before the "real" PCs.
Meh.
"All Risk, no reward" would make me leery of replaying, even to make a legal table. After all, why should I risk my PC's life and property when I get nothing out of it?
"No risk, no reward" has its potential for abuse, but it isn't much higher in actuality than the abuses already presented by using the level-appropriate pregen.
4th level pregens:
Kyra: potion of eagle’s splendor, potion of protection from evil, scroll of comprehend languages, scroll of lesser restoration, wand of cure light wounds (50 charges)
Valeros: potions of cure moderate wounds (2), potion of enlarge person,
potion of protection from evil, acid flask, alchemist’s fire (2), antitoxin, holy water
Merisiel: oil of keen edge, potions of cure light wounds (2), potion
of invisibility, potion of jump, acid flask, alchemist’s fire, tanglefoot bag
Ezren: oil of magic weapon, potions of cure light wounds (2), potion of fly, scroll of blur, scroll of charm person, scroll of comprehend languages, wand of magic missile (50 charges), tanglefoot bag
Lirianne: oil of silence, potion of cat’s grace, potion of cure light
wounds, alchemist’s fire
Reiko: potions of cure light wounds (3), potion of jump, potion
of pass without trace, potion of protection from evil, caltrops, flash
powder, smoke pellet
Hayato: potion of cure moderate wounds, potion of remove fear
Some aren't as equipped with free consumables, but some of them -- potential abuse, if you lean that way, and your GM doesn't object.
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The problem of allowing someone to replay with no risk (regardless of whether there is reward or not) is it allows them to do things that their character would not normally do. Being crazy and running pellmell into the think of battle.
There has to be risk, otherwise its skews the experience at the table for the other players.
True, it does allow that, but then that person isn't roleplaying their character. Since the major reason for doing this is so that you get to play your own character, why would you choose to play them acting like an idiot and getting killed?
As others have noted, you can do this just as well with a pregen.
By 'skews', do you mean impacts the fun? If so, the other players are perfectly empowered to ask the GM to boot the disruptive player. The GM is also perfectly at liberty to boot a replayer if they think they are abusing the situation.
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Yesterday afternoon I went down to Modern Myths in Norhthampton MA to see how the gaming group was going there. After saying hello to everyone and sitting down at the table I got my character binder out. The GM told me what scenario we were playing and I began digging through my character binder. I discovered that I had already played the scenario being run. I let the GM know. She was fine with my re playing.
I stayed in the back of the party. I let the other players whom hadn't played the scenario do all of the investigative work and make all of the deductions. I let them make all of the choices.
When asked I filled in here and there, information about Magnimar, the Irrespan, the Varisians, the Shaonti etc.
In combat I played a support roll and let the other players have the spotlight.
I think Don Walker may have suggested this somewhere.....I chose not to use any of my expendables, namely Wands potions etc. I just used the spells my character had known.
In the end, i think we all had a good time. I didn't get a chronicle sheet.
So yes I agree there is the potential for abuse, but if the GM feels that you are spoiling things for other players, The GM is supposed to eject the player. "Don't be a Jerk" comes to mind.
A big problem is that most people ignore the fact that the ONLY reason you are allowed to replay a scenario is if you are the 4th person at the table. To make a legal table.
You aren't technically allowed to play if you are the 5th player or the 6th player.
Play a pregen. You've already had your chance at this scenario, let the first times enjoy it. Play a pregen.
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You've already had your chance at this scenario, let the first times enjoy it. Play a pregen.
I don't understand why having a pregen at the table is more fun that having any other character.
I went to check the actual wording on this:
You are free to replay a scenario in order to meet the minimum legal table size (see Chapter 7), but once you have reached that limit, you do not earn any additional rewards beyond having a good time.
That needs rewording, as it implies that you get a benefit for replay if you do so to meet the minimum table size. However the previous sentence correctly states that you never get a benefit beyond 1 player and 1 GM chronicle. In fact, it could be interpreted that you do not get a player credit for playing something that you have previously GMed if you are not the fourth player at a table of 4 players - not what was intended.
That wording does not preclude someone from replaying in the situation where there presence is not required to make a legal table. Indeed, it would be an unfair GM who prevented someone from replaying when their only other option was a sad bus trip home without a game.
The wording on p30 regarding APs and modules is more strongly aligned to preventing replay except to make a legal table, but the wording for scenarios (above) does not do so.
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A big problem is that most people ignore the fact that the ONLY reason you are allowed to replay a scenario is if you are the 4th person at the table. To make a legal table.
You aren't technically allowed to play if you are the 5th player or the 6th player.
I don't think that's accurate. Can you direct me to the part of the Guide that says that, Tim?
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You don't get a chronicle sheet, there's no reward OR risk.
If there's no paper trail, it doesn't happen. Unless someone can state otherwise, by citing the rules of the book and not by an argument for how it "should work," I believe that's how it works.
Whether it "should work" that way is irrelevant to how to currently works. Obviously it could be changed later, but for the time being it is what it is.
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You've already had your chance at this scenario, let the first times enjoy it. Play a pregen.I don't understand why having a pregen at the table is more fun that having any other character.
I went to check the actual wording on this:
You are free to replay a scenario in order to meet the minimum legal table size (see Chapter 7), but once you have reached that limit, you do not earn any additional rewards beyond having a good time.That needs rewording, as it implies that you get a benefit for replay if you do so to meet the minimum table size. However the previous sentence correctly states that you never get a benefit beyond 1 player and 1 GM chronicle. In fact, it could be interpreted that you do not get a player credit for playing something that you have previously GMed if you are not the fourth player at a table of 4 players - not what was intended.
That wording does not preclude someone from replaying in the situation where there presence is not required to make a legal table. Indeed, it would be an unfair GM who prevented someone from replaying when their only other option was a sad bus trip home without a game.
The wording on p30 regarding APs and modules is more strongly aligned to preventing replay except to make a legal table, but the wording for scenarios (above) does not do so.
You need to quote a little bit more of the passage:
You cannot receive more than 1 player Chronicle and 1 GM Chronicle for the same scenario, regardless of how many times you GM or play the scenario. You are free to replay a scenario in order to meet the minimum legal table size (see Chapter 7), but once you have reached that limit, you do not earn any additional rewards beyond having a good time.
The limit referred to is the limit of "1 player Chronicle."
Also, the text that immediately follows:
If you have already played a scenario and wish to replay it for any reason, you must inform the GM that you have already played the scenario. Some GMs may not be comfortable running an adventure for players who have foreknowledge of what is to come. If your GM is not comfortable with you replaying a scenario, you must find another GM who is. GMs have the right to deny players the opportunity to replay a scenario for any reason, but all GMs are encouraged to be as flexible as possible when replay is the only option that allows them to seat the minimum legal number of players at a game table.
makes it clear that replaying in order to make a legal table is not the only replay option, but one that a GM is encouraged to allow.
EDIT: also the minimum legal number of players is currently 3 (not 4).
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EDIT: also the minimum legal number of players is currently 3 (not 4).
just to clarify.
The minimum table size for a Pathfinder Society Organized Play session to be considered legal is four PCs. Table size is capped at six PCs. In cases in which you simply cannot seat four players, you may run a table of three players, and play an official level-appropriate pregenerated character in order to meet the minimum
table size of four PCs.
Table size is still minimum 4, and I would rather let someone reply to make 4 them me run a pregen and GM.
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EDIT: also the minimum legal number of players is currently 3 (not 4).just to clarify.
Table size is still minimum 4, and I would rather let someone reply to make 4 them me run a pregen and GM.
The minimum table size for a Pathfinder Society Organized Play session to be considered legal is four PCs. Table size is capped at six PCs. In cases in which you simply cannot seat four players, you may run a table of three players, and play an official level-appropriate pregenerated character in order to meet the minimum
table size of four PCs.
The minimum number of characters is 4. But you only need 3 players to run a legal PFS table. The 4th character may be a pregen run by the GM if you only have 3 players.
So if your GM only allows replayers to meet table minimums, that is 3 players.
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@Don, yes I just wanted to clarify just in case someone saw it and thought 3 characters was enough.
@Chris, I don't agree. If you are replaying on a table of 4+, meaning the table could play without you. Then sure I could see death being permanent. If you are replaying so other people get to play, I'm not going to penalize that person for doing it.
Still there is no way for me to record it. The second chronicle isn't valid, and when you go to report it will give the error that the person already played it.