| Wind Chime |
So there are a couple of times watching game of thrones where I wondered what DC's I would make the sense motive check? So for any of those who have watched the recent Episode the rains of castamere what DC would you put it at.
Also for the Starks would you give them low int and low wisdom or just low wisdom or just no ranks in sense motive ?
| Kimera757 |
No ranks in Sense Motive.
Robb (and, off-screen, Ned) were really good tactical commanders, so presumably high Int. In the books Robb was sixteen when he started his rebellion, yet he was outthinking more experienced Lannister bannermen. Admittedly, many of those bannermen didn't have much in the Int department, getting their jobs due to family connections, but experience still means something.
Both seem resistant to temptation, especially Ned. (He might not have even had an affair; look up the L + R = J theory sometime, but also note the TV series dumped that possibility entirely. GRRM might have been annoyed at it.) I'd give them decent Wisdom too, with maybe Iron Will.
But yes, no Sense Motive. Ned's "code of honor" was restrictive. He didn't just fail to notice being lied to (yes, Littlefinger has lots of Bluff, but still...) but he actually told Cersei his plans ahead of time.
The RW (won't say the full name to avoid spoilers) was an entire situation with a Sense Motive DC. It's probably high. I'd pick a decent level and just steal a 4e skill DC for it. (I'd use the chief's level. You know which chief I'm talking about.)
It would also be a skill challenge. Simply noticing that one person is behaving oddly wouldn't reveal the entire circumstance. Also, it's a bit difficult to get out of, you need a good excuse to skip that sort of thing, and can't fight your way out unless you convince your followers that they need to do so.
| Kimera757 |
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The entire purpose of the deception was to get a surprise attack. Catelyn may have made her check, and not been surprised, but she's a 5th-level (according to Guardians of Order) aristocrat, so it didn't help her much.
GRRM obviously doesn't care about encounter balance. But we already knew that, right?
CuttinCurt
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We know only Robb and Catelyn have the diehard feat, and...
Above average Intellect for the Starks is a for sure, below average wisdom is an absolute YES!
Low wisdom factual evidence: (low wis = stupidity?)
Sending the kingslayer back to Kings landing = stupidity for Catelyn
Not marrying who he was supposed to = stupidity for Robb
Getting out foxed by the imp @ the Vale = stupidity for Catelyn and her sister Lysa Arryn (seems a family trait - perhaps if we were using 3.5 Unearthed Arcana they would have the family flaw of "Pathetic", making sure that they have a max of an 8 wis)
Anyway, this is what I think. :D
| Ciaran Barnes |
Not everything can be put into skill ranks and ability scores. Bad decisions often comes from "flaws". A sense of honor, fair play, and what is right and wrong are what got both Ned and Rob killed. The same qualities that made them protagonists (GoT does not have actual heroes) are what put them where their enemies could kill them. None of their enemies fight fair, so their enemies get the better of them. In game terms, neither one of them has a dump stat or glaring weakness in the mechanical sense. Its RP.
| Kimera757 |
Catelyn was suffering from depression, does that reduce Wisdom or Int? (She was pretty smart. Yes, Tyrion got away from her at the Vale, but when she captured him and made people think she was taking him to Winterfell, she was pretty smart. Lyssa messed up, but she's obviously insane. The dumb jailer didn't help matters.)
Robb acted like he had low Wisdom though. When you fight a war, you have to sacrifice the personal. (Also, he broke the "no sex on a battlefield rule", coined after warlord Cao Cao broke the rule and lost his son, cousin, part of his army and the affection of his first wife simultaneously.)
I think the Starks were simply too inflexible. Heck, maybe Robb actually has low Int but is some sort of tactical genius, making him seem smarter than he really is.
CuttinCurt
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Catelyn was suffering from depression, does that reduce Wisdom or Int? (She was pretty smart. Yes, Tyrion got away from her at the Vale, but when she captured him and made people think she was taking him to Winterfell, she was pretty smart. Lyssa messed up, but she's obviously insane. The dumb jailer didn't help matters.)
Robb acted like he had low Wisdom though. When you fight a war, you have to sacrifice the personal. (Also, he broke the "no sex on a battlefield rule", coined after warlord Cao Cao broke the rule and lost his son, cousin, part of his army and the affection of his first wife simultaneously.)
I think the Starks were simply too inflexible. Heck, maybe Robb actually has low Int but is some sort of tactical genius, making him seem smarter than he really is.
No doubt that Lyssa was and is insane, and if we try to put this into 3.75 rules for pathfinder, it means she failed to many will saves. will saves are based on Wisdom, thus the thought that the entire family might be branded with that pathetic trait. (for those that don't know, that is a -2 to an attribute of your choice. Obviously, we are using it for wisdom.)
And didn't you think that everyone in the vale that was at Tyrion's trial were all showing signs of stupidity?
You touched on the dumb jailer, which was so easily manipulated it made me giggle when I first saw it. But the knight who stood for Lyssa? Could he not also be looked at as having low wisdom?
He let the itch between his pants guild his choice, fighting a complete "unknown" to impress the hag. Tyrions defender knew exactly what kind of fighter the knight was, thus, he chopped off the knights raging hard-on and sent him on a thousand foot drop to his death.
I think that is enough evidence to show low wisdom is a genetic trait with the Starks... Oh crap, I think I could be wrong... my fault, the exception might Arrya?
ShadowcatX
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Neither Lyssa nor Catelyn are genetically starks so the whole "it is a genetic trait" thing really doesn't fly.
| mcv |
Not everything can be captured in Pathfinder mechanics. Ned and Robb were smart, perceptive, and reasonably wise, but also terribly naive. They expect that everybody plays by the same rules.
Consider the victory where Robb captured Jamie. That was a masterful battlefield bluff, and he probably wouldn't fall so easily for someone making a bluff like that. But that's the battlefield. That's a game for which he has an intrinsic knack. Outside the battlefield, he expects that expects that people will play by certain rules of common decency. Maybe he just forgets to ask for Sense Motive checks or something.
| Gnomezrule |
They have varying int or wis scores. I think that Ned showed more of both, but was done in by the fact that he trusted he had the numbers and the weight of law behind him.