Do trait bonuses to AC apply to CMD?

[Oladon]

Combat Maneuver Defense wrote:

A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD.

RAW, the answer is "no". However, this was published before trait bonuses existed...

Do trait bonuses to AC apply to CMD as well?

[Reecy]

You would look at the AC Bonus Type... If it is one of those then they answer is Yes... But Only certain forms of AC stack so...

If it was Insight and you had another insight bonus that was higher then no...

Circumstance Deflection, and Dodge Do stack though... So it totally depends where the AC bonus is going.

[Count Buggula]

The type is in fact just a "Trait" AC Bonus. Which didn't exist when the CRB was written, so I think this is a good FAQ candidate.

[Are]

Paizo had published products utilizing trait bonuses for some of their 3.5 adventure paths (Legacy of Fire, for instance), so such bonuses did exist before the CRB was printed (and Paizo likely knew they were going to continue using them).

Of course, trait bonuses didn't exist in the CRB, so they might not have wanted to print the term there for that reason.

In any case, I would say no, because traits aren't supposed to be very powerful.

[Count Buggula]

Are wrote:

Paizo had published products utilizing trait bonuses for some of their 3.5 adventure paths (Legacy of Fire, for instance), so such bonuses did exist before the CRB was printed (and Paizo likely knew they were going to continue using them).

Of course, trait bonuses didn't exist in the CRB, so they might not have wanted to print the term there for that reason.

In any case, I would say no, because traits aren't supposed to be very powerful.

Trait bonuses existed, but even in the APG there were still no traits that granted an AC bonus that I'm aware of. The Trait AC type is a fairly recent addition.

[Reecy]

The examples I was referring to was like this

Craven While most halflings are fearless, some are skittish, making them particularly alert. Halflings with this racial trait gain a +1 bonus on initiative checks and a +1 bonus on attack rolls when flanking. They take a –2 penalty on saves against fear effects and gain no benefit from morale bonuses on such saves. When affected by a fear effect, their base speed increases by 10 feet and they gain a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class. This racial trait replaces fearless and halfling luck.

[Oladon]

I believe you are confusing "racial traits" with "traits", which are completely different things and, in fact, irrelevant to this discussion.

[Count Buggula]

Also, that particular AC bonus is specified as being a dodge bonus, not a trait bonus.

[Reecy]

I understand that but the bonus is coming from a Trait... That was the only reason I said it would depend on what the trait said...

But otherwise... the primary traits that granted bonuses back then were covered as Dodge Bonuses....

Mainly Size differences... At least that is how I considered it.

[Oladon]

Reecy, your posts have been completely irrelevant. We are discussing the specific bonus type "trait bonus", not "a bonus from a trait" (or racial trait, as you seem to want to interpret it).

Please stop.

[Reecy]

Then Show me a Trait that gives AC bonus because the only ones I am aware of Are Traits but specify its a Trait bonus.

I would like an example..

[Elladan Sindanarie]

Reecy, Bam!! here is a Taldor Traits

Expert Duelist: In your youth, you spent countless
hours perfecting the art of the duel, focusing your feints
on defeating a single foe. You gain a +1 trait bonus to your
Armor Class so long as you are adjacent to a single foe. This
trait bonus is not applied to your Armor Class for touch
attacks or when you are denied your Dexterity bonus.

[Reecy]

Ok Elladan thanks

That is like a Modified Dodge Bonus.. But ok noted.

[Quandary]

I hit FAQ, anybody else please also do so.
I would still like confirmation/FAQ/Errata on if Untyped AC bonuses should apply to CMD like they do to Touch AC.
There's actually a large number of untyped AC bonuses out there.
(Per RAW they don't, but like the Trait Bonus issue, the question is of INTENT)

[Reecy]

FAQED

[Count Buggula]

Also, clarification on whether trait AC bonuses apply to touch attacks would be nice, since not all of them specify, as does Expert Duelist.

[Belafon]

You posted it yourself.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#_combat-maneuver-defense

PRD wrote:

. . .A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD . . .

It's pretty cut and dry.

Also, deflection bonuses don't stack.

[Oladon]

Please read the original post.

[Quandary]

Count Buggula wrote:

Also, clarification on whether trait AC bonuses apply to touch attacks would be nice, since not all of them specify, as does Expert Duelist.

Touch AC is defined as normal AC minus armor, shield, natural armor. ALL other bonuses apply.

By RAW, CMD is defined differently, as if it were starting over from scratch,
even though except for Untyped and Trait bonuses, it is basically Touch AC + BAB + STR + different Size mod.

[Reecy]

So the Answer to this whole thing

Yes they are added int CMD as long the Prereq is met for the AC Bonus to take effect

[Quandary]

By the actual rules that is dead wrong for Trait and Untyped AC bonuses, as CMD is explicitly defined, not deriving from AC.

[Hogeyhead]

Reecy wrote:

So the Answer to this whole thing

Yes they are added int CMD as long the Prereq is met for the AC Bonus to take effect

No reecy I don't think that is the conclusion, RAW Trait bonuses are not included in the list of bonuses that apply to CMD, so unless there is an errata it does not translate to CMD

[Robert A Matthews]

I'd love to see an update allowing trait bonuses to be added to CMD. Defender of the Society would be that much more awesome of a trait if it were allowed.

[Count Buggula]

Quandary wrote:

Count Buggula wrote:

Also, clarification on whether trait AC bonuses apply to touch attacks would be nice, since not all of them specify, as does Expert Duelist.

Touch AC is defined as normal AC minus armor, shield, natural armor. ALL other bonuses apply.

By RAW, CMD is defined differently, as if it were starting over from scratch,
even though except for Untyped and Trait bonuses, it is basically Touch AC + BAB + STR + different Size mod.

I understand that's the current state of RAW, but I'm wondering if that was intended or just an artifact of the rule being written before there were trait AC bonuses.

[Oladon]

Hrm... this is marked as answered in the FAQ, but I'm not seeing it...

[Xaratherus]

I'm not 100% certain of this, but at some point I read on the forums that the only way the design team can turn off the "alarm" associated with an FAQ request is to mark it flagged as answered.

It doesn't necessarily mean it's answered yet, or that they're just dumping it into a black hole - it just gets it off the list of new FAQ requests.

[Oladon]

That's not true... there are a number of different ways to mark a thread as not needing FAQ. One of them is "No response required".

[Xaratherus]

Oladon wrote:

That's not true... there are a number of different ways to mark a thread as not needing FAQ. One of them is "No response required".

But that implies that a response isn't necessary, whereas marking it "Answered in FAQ" indicates they recognize that it is - or at least does - need an answer.

I'll see if I can dig up the conversation in which this came up.

[Oladon]

There's no rush. Whether it is or isn't the case isn't going to change the fact that I'm going to sit here patiently. :P

[Cheapy]

I suspect that this FAQ covers it already.

[Kazaan]

By the precedent set by Canny Defense, a "trait bonus" would not apply because it isn't explicitly listed as a qualifying bonus for CMD. Either they need to change the CMD rules to include "trait bonus" as a valid option or they need to change the trait to re-identify the bonus type (ie. make it a dodge bonus rather than trait bonus). Or, they just leave it as it is and it wasn't intended to affect CMD from the get-go.