You can do that and I don't think its cheesy at all.
Should be legal if I'm interpreting that rule. It gives you such tiny gain that it could hardly be called cheese... especially as a fighter dip for cleric isn't the most powerful thing in the world.
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You definitely aren't the first to do this and you won't be the last. I have heard of people playing a barbarian through all of level 1 with the toughness feat to increase their chance of survival and then switch to sorcerer right as they level up.
I've never actually seen but have heard rumors of a "Ledford's Bane" build, essentially a 20 Con Barbarian with Tribal Scars and Toughness, plus Favored Class for a whopping 27 hit points at level 1, taking 47 damage to kill (2 more than max rolls on a certain x3 crit can cause).
Level-dipping is pretty common practice.
-j
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You definitely aren't the first to do this and you won't be the last. I have heard of people playing a barbarian through all of level 1 with the toughness feat to increase their chance of survival and then switch to sorcerer right as they level up.I've never actually seen but have heard rumors of a "Ledford's Bane" build, essentially a 20 Con Barbarian with Tribal Scars and Toughness, plus Favored Class for a whopping 27 hit points at level 1, taking 47 damage to kill (2 more than max rolls on a certain x3 crit can cause).
Pesh adds 15 temporary health to the mix.
PESH!!!
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I've never actually seen but have heard rumors of a "Ledford's Bane" build, essentially a 20 Con Barbarian with Tribal Scars and Toughness, plus Favored Class for a whopping 27 hit points at level 1, taking 47 damage to kill (2 more than max rolls on a certain x3 crit can cause).
*snort*
"Ledford's Bane", that's funny. My cranky old VC did something similar, except he decided to dump dex, and wears very little armor (just an armored coat if memory serves).
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The level 1 retraining rule was added to allow players who realized they "made a mistake" with their build to fix it OR to allow players to "test drive" a class before committing to it without "losing" the Chronicles they already earned.
It was not added to allow min/maxers additional opportunities for their character build before level 2. That is just an unfortunate side-effect.
So while intentionally playing a different build at level one, purely for the game mechanic advantage it provides is not in the spirit of the rules, it is not disallowed.
That said, the campaign leadership is continually reviewing the effect certain rules have on the game and may decide that the intended benefit of a rule is not worth the power creep it adds to the game.
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That said, the campaign leadership is continually reviewing the effect certain rules have on the game and may decide that the intended benefit of a rule is not worth the power creep it adds to the game.
Yeah, surviving to level 2 and retraining into exactly what you were going to play anyway is serious power creep.
;)
+1 or 2 hps is power creep? Multiclassing in this game is actually a loss usually(though there are exceptions).
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That said, the campaign leadership is continually reviewing the effect certain rules have on the game and may decide that the intended benefit of a rule is not worth the power creep it adds to the game.Yeah, surviving to level 2 and retraining into exactly what you were going to play anyway is serious power creep.
;)
exactly that, jiggy
a level 2 wizard not wanting to die at level 1 is not power creep
nor is trying out some things while playing first steps for the 230342992th time
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That said, the campaign leadership is continually reviewing the effect certain rules have on the game and may decide that the intended benefit of a rule is not worth the power creep it adds to the game.Yeah, surviving to level 2 and retraining into exactly what you were going to play anyway is serious power creep.
;)
I think Don got the reason wrong there (not a power creep issue), but that said the rule has had a side-effect that was not intended and they have been known to change rules when that happens.
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Sure, counter my general statement with a specific example that really is not an issue for anyone. Completely ignore the 20 CON Barbarian example above.
Completely miss my subtle point that discussing how to best take advantage of the level 1 retrain for maximum survivability at level one is probably not the best thing to do in order to keep the level 1 retrain rule in the campaign.
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Sure, counter my general statement with a specific example that really is not an issue for anyone. Completely ignore the 20 CON Barbarian example above.
I wasn't ignoring it, I was actually thinking of it when I made my post.
I mean, if you're making (say) a sorcerer, what's the difference between building him how you want at level 1 and then hitting level 2, versus playing a 20 CON barbarian at level 1 and then retraining to the exact same 2nd-level sorcerer? Either way, from your 4th session onwards the PC is identical in either case, so how is there a problem?
Its not that I missed it, I just don't see it as being as bad as you do. No need to be so hostile about it.
Its not anything you couldn't have already done at level one, and being able to try out a variety of things or use a build that blooms a little later isn't a bad thing I don't think. In particular I don't find Magus as exciting until level 2 when you get spell strike. Its a lot more fun than playing my color spray happy wizard at level 1.
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Sure, counter my general statement with a specific example that really is not an issue for anyone. Completely ignore the 20 CON Barbarian example above.
Completely miss my subtle point that discussing how to best take advantage of the level 1 retrain for maximum survivability at level one is probably not the best thing to do in order to keep the level 1 retrain rule in the campaign.
Personally, I think I haven't used the rebuild rule at all, as I generally credit up to level 2 anyway. I'm just saying I've heard of one-shot-kill-paranoid people mentioning using that kind of build at 1st level (not anyone in our region, though, to my knowledge). I think it's actually a counterpoint to the one-shotting thread that's going on right now too; it's the reaction from certain players who really really don't want to lose their character, to the point that they're willing to give up playing the character they actually want for a whole level.
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Personally, I think I haven't used the rebuild rule at all, as I generally credit up to level 2 anyway. I'm just saying I've heard of one-shot-kill-paranoid people mentioning using that kind of build at 1st level (not anyone in our region, though, to my knowledge). I think it's actually a counterpoint to the one-shotting thread that's going on right now too; it's the reaction from certain players who really really don't want to lose their character, to the point that they're willing to give up playing the character they actually want for a whole level.Sure, counter my general statement with a specific example that really is not an issue for anyone. Completely ignore the 20 CON Barbarian example above.
Completely miss my subtle point that discussing how to best take advantage of the level 1 retrain for maximum survivability at level one is probably not the best thing to do in order to keep the level 1 retrain rule in the campaign.
Which is why, once again, I feel that some sort of low-level raise dead option should be avialable. What if you could raise dead by selling everything other than 150 gp worth of equipment?
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Its not that I missed it, I just don't see it as being as bad as you do. No need to be so hostile about it.
Its not anything you couldn't have already done at level one, and being able to try out a variety of things or use a build that blooms a little later isn't a bad thing I don't think. In particular I don't find Magus as exciting until level 2 when you get spell strike. Its a lot more fun than playing my color spray happy wizard at level 1.
It's not hostility. It is frustration.
And just because you can play both characters at their respective levels, a level 2 Sorcerer that made it to level 2 as a 1st level Sorcerer, earned it. A player who purposely ran the character as a 20 Con Barbarian at level one in order to make it to level 2 and retrain the character into a level 2 Sorcerer is being cheesy.
Where is your pride in using your game mastery to play an unmodified character?
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Sometimes you need to get found.
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I've never used the barbarian trick, but I've used the rebuild for what I perceive to be its intended purpose: "Oops, I don't really like this class. NEXT!"
On the first one, I decided against Alchemist, and turned him into a Paladin.
The last one, I decided I could make what felt more like a Samurai to me by using the Fighter class, rather than the Samurai class.
That all said, NOTHING about the character is locked in (except fame/PA, XP, and total gold earned) until you PLAY your character at 2nd level. Thems the rules, and I don't see it as all that cheesy. Allows for some limited experimentation.
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I don't think I'd call this "cheesy", either.
Playing a barbarian for your first 3 scenarios, then completely chucking it for a sorcerer would be cheesy - if you knew all along you wanted that PFS ID to be a sorcerer.
Also, consider if you went fighter first, then cleric...
#1) It would've felt less like your ideal concept from the get-go (if you are planning something like cleric5/fighter1). Because of this, you may have lost some enthusiasm for your character since it felt less like a Desnan/Gorumite/Calistrian/whatever-you-wanted-to-be, and instead started thinking about a whole new character (and thus denied PFS play from getting another much-loved mostly-cleric PC).
#2) The other folks at your table were probably thankful to have a cleric along, especially if it was a bunch of fresh level 1's. This reason alone, I have no problem with folks playing cleric first, and then switching the order in which they took classes at 2nd level, as long as one of those classes is also cleric (or oracle even, if the person decides they'd rather go with the oracle's spellcasting methods over the cleric's).
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As an example of an experienced player using the rebuild rule, for my third character, I decided to create a borderline-evil one. Chelish, LN, worshipper of Asmodeus. It seemed fun at the time, but I was frustrated because, more often than not, my table would go along with the absurdly ridiculous things he wanted to do. I ended up rebuilding him because I just was uninterested in playing the character's personality further.
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It's not hostility. It is frustration.
And just because you can play both characters at their respective levels, a level 2 Sorcerer that made it to level 2 as a 1st level Sorcerer, earned it. A player who purposely ran the character as a 20 Con Barbarian at level one in order to make it to level 2 and retrain the character into a level 2 Sorcerer is being cheesy.
Where is your pride in using your game mastery to play an unmodified character?
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Sometimes you need to get found.
If you're judging other players as deserving or not deserving their 2nd-level PCs, and experience "frustration" at those you place in the latter category because they have a different sense/source of "pride" than you do; in short, if how someone else has fun can offend you without them even being at the same table with you, then I daresay it might not be them who need to "get found".
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As an example of an experienced player using the rebuild rule, for my third character, I decided to create a borderline-evil one. Chelish, LN, worshipper of Asmodeus. It seemed fun at the time, but I was frustrated because, more often than not, my table would go along with the absurdly ridiculous things he wanted to do. I ended up rebuilding him because I just was uninterested in playing the character's personality further.
That's actually kinda funny.
I've used the rebuild rules a couple of times as an experienced player. The most recent was actually this week.
I played a new cleric at level 1 on Monday, though he already had some decent equipment from 2 GM credits worth of cash and prestige spent. Upon playing him, I realized that he wasn't using his Touch of Chaos domain power as much as I'd expected, because it was competing with spellcasting and just plain punching things in the face (with a cestus) for the use of his standard actions. On the other hand, his Copycat domain power is only a move action to activate, so I was using that constantly. So when I leveled him up afterward, I decided to use the half orc cleric favored class bonus (an extra 1/2 use per day of a level 1 domain power) on Copycat instead of Touch of Chaos at both levels 1 and 2, which is different from what I originally had as his favored class bonus for level 1. That was my big rebuild for that guy.
My much bigger and "cheesier" use of the rebuild rule came when I created my prankster bard. Since he revolves around using Versatile Performance with Perform: Comedy to demoralize enemies in combat, the concept just doesn't work until he gets Versatile Performance at level 2. I was originally planning to skip level 1 with GM credits, but the situation came up to play low level, and I decided to play him at level 1. So I finished creating the character at the last minute, making him playable for level 1 in a way that I knew I'd change once I advanced to level 2 (different feat, different skills trained, etc). It's the same character concept, but I made mechanical decisions for level 1 that I already knew I was planning to change.
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Last year while living down in Durham NC and playing with the PFS gang down there, I played along side of one other player who had a character that whose character was a Paladin / oracle/ summoner (synthesist) build that well, was able to knock any monster we came across "out of the ball field". All we other players had to do was bring our lunch box, and eat a sandwich while this character went to work. At least the player, a really nice guy by the way, and had a sense of humor about his character....the synthesist's eidolon's head was shaped like a wedge of cheese. The player also had enough sense to hang a bit in the background until we could call "oh Godric...this monster has chewed off my arm"....or something like that, and his character would trundle in and smite the beastie to pieces. His character was very "cheesy" and saved our bacon many times. He even explained that his character was an attempt to be as "cheesy" as possible.
But enough of my cheesy side rant.
I'm going to chime in with Don on this one. From what I understand, the rebuild rules are there to take a character build on a test run before you reach 2nd level. It gives you a chance, say after sitting at a table, and having pre gen "Kyra" stuffed in your hands, to try playing a monk, or a sorcerer, before settling on whit you would like to play. Perhaps you hear of a better feat combination like point blank shot and precise shot for an archer character.....it prevents you from getting locked in and doing some experimenting.
I think it is an abuse of the rebuild system to deliberately avoid the challenge of playing through level one with a sorcerer or something like that. Yeah that's cheesy.
You can already use the Multi class system to the same effect.
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I think it is an abuse of the rebuild system to deliberately avoid the challenge of playing through level one with a sorcerer or something like that. Yeah that's cheesy.
So would you consider it an abuse for someone to use GM credits to skip level 1 altogether?
Personally, I don't like level 1. The risk of a one shot death is high, even in easy fights, and many character concepts don't kick in until you get specific abilities at higher levels (usually 2-4 for most of my characters, though in one case, it'll be when I get into a prestige class at 6).
So I do what I can to skip it. In part, that means GMing First Steps over and over when we have newbies at our local group, so I can use those credits to skip 1st level with my next PC.
The level 1 retraining rule was added to allow players who realized they "made a mistake" with their build to fix it OR to allow players to "test drive" a class before committing to it without "losing" the Chronicles they already earned.
It was not added to allow min/maxers additional opportunities for their character build before level 2. That is just an unfortunate side-effect.
So while intentionally playing a different build at level one, purely for the game mechanic advantage it provides is not in the spirit of the rules, it is not disallowed.
That said, the campaign leadership is continually reviewing the effect certain rules have on the game and may decide that the intended benefit of a rule is not worth the power creep it adds to the game.
Right. Fraggin. On.
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After a particularly tough table this week* one player asked if we could run some 'lightning blitz' First Steps. Knowing the scenarios, he thought they could skip through the RP and finish faster because he wanted to reach second level faster. Personally I think this would be cheesy, though I dinnae rule it out. I also think the "Leford's Bane" (yeah that's going to stick :) is cheesy.
However the OPs fighter/cleric cleric/fighter does not feel cheesy to me. Nor would Jiggy's sorcerer with a 20 con.
*(four first-time characters: monk, rogue, witch, pre-gen rogue) and three first time players (not the witch)
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At OP,
If you have to ask, it means something inside you thinks it's cheesy.
So don't do it. If that little bit detracts from your PC, just move on.
Note: I'm also on Walter's side.
Also, how many martial weapons do you plan on using?
You can usually land a good one with race or favored weapon, and the extra level of casting is very valuable, especially if it gives you access to a nicer buff (which could cover the difference in damage/AC from the Fighter stuff) or to game-changing spells.
+1 level casting & channeling & domain abilities vs.
+1/4 BAB & heavy armor & all martial weapons & 1 combat feat
Maybe I'm too into magic, but I'd go full Cleric even if making a combat monster.
Cheers, JMK
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I think it is an abuse of the rebuild system to deliberately avoid the challenge of playing through level one with a sorcerer or something like that. Yeah that's cheesy.
So would you consider it an abuse for someone to use GM credits to skip level 1 altogether?
Personally, I don't like level 1. The risk of a one shot death is high, even in easy fights, and many character concepts don't kick in until you get specific abilities at higher levels (usually 2-4 for most of my characters, though in one case, it'll be when I get into a prestige class at 6).
So I do what I can to skip it. In part, that means GMing First Steps over and over when we have newbies at our local group, so I can use those credits to skip 1st level with my next PC.
Fromper, no I don't think using GM credit for the first three XPs of a character to be an abuse of GM credits. You have earned the GM credits by GMing games. Then you can use the credits as you want to. That's what they are there for.
While I may prefer to work my way through 1st level, for the feeling of accomplishment when my character get to 2nd level. I also think I value my character more, having gone through the risk of loosing it. But that is my preference.
I just object to people using the rebuild system for something other then it was intended for...namely skirting the risks of 1st level.
Are we saying people who play through their first scenarios with a different character than 2 are skirting risk or don't deserve the credits now? They still had risk. They still had a chance to fail or die. They still took time out of their day to come down and play a game and hopefully had fun doing it.
